Is Belief In The Book Mormon As History Important?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Nope...I see why you argue it this way.  To me, the fact you need to compare a book of fiction to the Book of Mormon to prove a point speaks volumes.  And sadly, proves my point

 

I wish it was not so...more than you know

I noticed you completely over looked Smac's use of the Koran. Tell us, why are you not Muslim? From your standards, the Koran is just as "trustworthy".

[UtahTexan]

I noticed you completely over looked Smac's use of the Koran. Tell us, why are you not Muslim? From your standards, the Koran is just as "trustworthy".

 

Because I accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

 

I have read the Koran.  

[UtahTexan]

I merely observe that of all the various locations mentioned in the Bible, Jerusalem is certainly the best known (31° 46' N, 35° 12' E), but there are also locations in the Bible about which archeologists cannot agree as to which site it occupied.

 

The Book of Mormon also takes place at Jerusalem (31° 46' N, 35° 12' E), and at a whole lot of other places, some of which are well-known, and others that are known to occupy a particular region -- based on purely secular archeological and historical considerations.

 

A serious person would address these parallels in a scholarly way, taking into account the internal evidence in the book (Bible or Book of Mormon) as compared to evidence external to the book.  Biblical and Book of Mormon scholars do this all the time, even though you privilege the one book and not the other.  Why would that be?  Are you bringing apriori considerations to the debate?

 

The fact that Joseph used Jerusalem is not convincing.  The fact that SOME of the locations of the Bible cannot be found are not an issue.  I would be tickled if the same percentage of places in the Book of Mormon could be located.

 

And I lived in Central America for five years.  So, I am not ignorant of what is there.

[UtahTexan]

Okay. Then what is the relevance of being able to walk the streets of Jerusalem to the topic at hand?

 

 

Because, to me, if a book is gonna say it is history, we should be able to know where it took place.

 

Evidence of what? I do not understand your point. Are saying that walking the streets of Jerusalem constitutes evidence that The Bible is an authentically ancient text?

 

I think it is SOME evidence.

 

If so, I suppose I agree with you. But what does antiquity have to do with scriptural authenticity and the historicity of Jesus Christ? After all, none of us place value on The Bible principally because it is a translation of an ancient text. If that's all it is, then it is on equal footing with The Koran, The Bhagavad Gita, The Vedas, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Tao Te Ching, The Upanishads, and so on. No more, no less. Interesting. Fascinating, even. But not essential to our eschatological destiny.

 

As I have stated....the Bible is an historical book that also claims to be religious.  The fact that we can go places mentioned gives the book credibility.  Does it prove anything?  No.  But enough evidence certainly helps.

Now what of The Book of Mormon? Does it have evidence supporting its claims? Claims which are more than recitation of events, but a recitation of miraculous events, events which really happened? I have some thoughts on this subject that make a straight-up "yes" or "no" response impractical. In any event, this is putting the cart before the horse. In all my comments about the vital nature of historicity for The Book of Mormon, I would not for one red minute juxtapose that necessity against the need for a spiritual witness about the truthfulness of the book. I don't believe these two concepts can be juxtaposed. To accept one is to accept the other. To reject one is to reject the other.

 

I think as a book of teaching, the Book of Mormon is amazing.  I simply cannot find any support for its historicity.  Hence my OP

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

The fact that Joseph used Jerusalem is not convincing.  The fact that SOME of the locations of the Bible cannot be found are not an issue.  I would be tickled if the same percentage of places in the Book of Mormon could be located.

Yet you claimed that there were no known locations in the Book of Mormon, which was immediately false.  You also ignored the deep insight the Book of Mormon exhibits into ancient Near Eastern lore and geography (quite aside from Jerusalem) as Clan Lehi moves through parts of Arabia, including the very interesting parallels with Nahom and Bountiful.  You likewise ignored the Jaredites.  Was that your idea of fairness?  As Hugh Nibley showed long ago, the Book of Mormon presents a very convincing ancient Near Eastern mise en scene.  Where is your substantive review of such issues?

 

And I lived in Central America for five years.  So, I am not ignorant of what is there.

I have met many tourists who have gone to all manner of far flung places, and, on return, give no evidence of having learned much about the places they visited.  In my four years living and studying in Israel, I met many a tourist, few of whom learned anything important about the Hebrew language, archeology, or religion.  I am not impressed by tales told by modern travelers, who understand very little of what they see -- much less what may have taken place historically.  Thus far, I have seen no evidence that you actually understand anything about the sights and sites you saw in Central America.  Perhaps you could disabuse me of that impression?

[Garden Girl]

Yet you claimed that there were no known locations in the Book of Mormon, which was immediately false.  You also ignored the deep insight the Book of Mormon exhibits into ancient Near Eastern lore and geography (quite aside from Jerusalem) as Clan Lehi moves through parts of Arabia, including the very interesting parallels with Nahom and Bountiful.  You likewise ignored the Jaredites.  Was that your idea of fairness?  As Hugh Nibley showed long ago, the Book of Mormon presents a very convincing ancient Near Eastern mise en scene.  Where is your substantive review of such issues?

 

I have met many tourists who have gone to all manner of far flung places, and, on return, give no evidence of having learned much about the places they visited.  In my four years living and studying in Israel, I met many a tourist, few of whom learned anything important about the Hebrew language, archeology, or religion.  I am not impressed by tales told by modern travelers, who understand very little of what they see -- much less what may have taken place historically.  Thus far, I have seen no evidence that you actually understand anything about the sights and sites you saw in Central America.  Perhaps you could disabuse me of that impression?

 

Hello Robert F. Smith...

I've read your posts on this Board for many years... have agreed with and enjoyed much of what you have to say... however, what's up with your underlying rudeness in this thread... I won't and don't speak for CountryBoy as he is perfectly capable of presenting his views...

my own opinion of the highlighted statement above is that not only is it rude, but arrogantly so...  There are many ways to present an opposing or different view without resorting to what I deem to be uncalled for rudeness...  

 

GG

[UtahTexan]

Yet you claimed that there were no known locations in the Book of Mormon, which was immediately false. You also ignored the deep insight the Book of Mormon exhibits into ancient Near Eastern lore and geography (quite aside from Jerusalem) as Clan Lehi moves through parts of Arabia, including the very interesting parallels with Nahom and Bountiful. You likewise ignored the Jaredites. Was that your idea of fairness? As Hugh Nibley showed long ago, the Book of Mormon presents a very convincing ancient Near Eastern mise en scene. Where is your substantive review of such issues?

-----------------Robert, I have ignored nothing. Again, if you can show me where, exactly where, in the Americas, where the Book of Mormon took place, I would be very appreciative. I have asked. You seem to have not responded. As to Arabia, if you can show me where a non- LDS scholar has agreed, I would likewise be appreciative

I have met many tourists who have gone to all manner of far flung places, and, on return, give no evidence of having learned much about the places they visited. In my four years living and studying in Israel, I met many a tourist, few of whom learned anything important about the Hebrew language, archeology, or religion. I am not impressed by tales told by modern travelers, who understand very little of what they see -- much less what may have taken place historically. Thus far, I have seen no evidence that you actually understand anything about the sights and sites you saw in Central America. Perhaps you could disabuse me of that impression?

--------------------I think you misinterpret what I say intentionally. A tourist? Really? I said I LIVED in Central America. For five years. If a person goes to BYU for 4 years are they merely a tourist to Provo?

As to what I know about what I saw, I can only say that my first two years were as an LDS missionary. My mission president claimed he was very knowledgable as to the Mayan Culture. Maybe he lied. I have visited several Mayan ruins, including Copan several times. While living three years in Honduras and two years in Panama, I also visited Guatemala, Costa Rica, and El Salvador on many occasions (you can call THAT "tourist" if you want, but usually, any touristy things I did was after work and in between assignments). So, if it makes you feel good to belittle my experiences, the belittle me some more. I truly do want you to feel good.

I started this thread, not to debate, but because I am truly searching for answers. Most of the responders here have been truly helpful and kind. I appreciate them more than they know. Smac, MF, GG, and others have been charitable and loving. I thank them. I did not come to this board to gain a testimony. I came here to read, observe others and their struggles and victories, and, maybe, with study and prayer, find my way back. I have been trying for about five years. I will not give up, even in the face of your belittling and condescension.

Thank you.

Edited October 22, 2014 by CountryBoy

[Robert F. Smith]

Yet you claimed that there were no known locations in the Book of Mormon, which was immediately false. You also ignored the deep insight the Book of Mormon exhibits into ancient Near Eastern lore and geography (quite aside from Jerusalem) as Clan Lehi moves through parts of Arabia, including the very interesting parallels with Nahom and Bountiful. You likewise ignored the Jaredites. Was that your idea of fairness? As Hugh Nibley showed long ago, the Book of Mormon presents a very convincing ancient Near Eastern mise en scene. Where is your substantive review of such issues?

 

-----------------Robert, I have ignored nothing. Again, if you can show me where, exactly where, in the Americas, where the Book of Mormon took place, I would be very appreciative. I have asked. You seem to have not responded. As to Arabia, if you can show me where a non- LDS scholar has agreed, I would likewise be appreciative

I have met many tourists who have gone to all manner of far flung places, and, on return, give no evidence of having learned much about the places they visited. In my four years living and studying in Israel, I met many a tourist, few of whom learned anything important about the Hebrew language, archeology, or religion. I am not impressed by tales told by modern travelers, who understand very little of what they see -- much less what may have taken place historically. Thus far, I have seen no evidence that you actually understand anything about the sights and sites you saw in Central America. Perhaps you could disabuse me of that impression?

--------------------I think you misinterpret what I say intentionally. A tourist? Really? I said I LIVED in Central America. For five years. If a person goes to BYU for 4 years are they merely a tourist to Provo?

As to what I know about what I saw, I can only say that my first two years were as an LDS missionary. My mission president claimed he was very knowledgable as to the Mayan Culture. Maybe he lied. I have visited several Mayan ruins, including Copan several times. While living three years in Honduras and two years in Panama, I also visited Guatemala, Costa Rica, and El Salvador on many occasions (you can call THAT "tourist" if you want, but usually, any touristy things I did was after work and in between assignments). So, if it makes you feel good to belittle my experiences, the belittle me some more. I truly do want you to feel good.

I started this thread, not to debate, but because I am truly searching for answers. Most of the responders here have been truly helpful and kind. I appreciate them more than they know. Smac, MF, GG, and others have been charitable and loving. I thank them. I did not come to this board to gain a testimony. I came here to read, observe others and their struggles and victories, and, maybe, with study and prayer, find my way back. I have been trying for about five years. I will not give up, even in the face of your belittling and condescension.

Thank you.

I'm sorry that you find it so offensive that I ask of you repeatedly to indicate any substantive data you have learned in the course of your various journeys.  You have not responded, except to belittle any evidence on behalf of the Book of Mormon.  Your apriori views are very clear, but not buttressed by any evidence.  Instead you have provided a host of false statements about the Book of Mormon.  I have pointed these out to you, and you have not deigned to reply with anything but vague generalities and further false statements.

 

As I have said, there are many tourists and they can spend years doing touristy things.  That is not the same as serious academic study, and does not result in the ability to discuss the archeological or historical nature of a particular area or culture.  If you are so ashamed of being a tourist that you feel belittled by me, that says it all.  For there is no shame in being a tourist, just as there is no academic quality in it.  My only complaint about your touristy activities is that you attempt to make it appear that you actually learned something from it -- which you refuse to show, perhaps because you cannot.

 

I am laboring under the silly assumption that a substantive discussion would be of value to us all.  Why can't you see that?

Edited October 22, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

Hello Robert F. Smith...

I've read your posts on this Board for many years... have agreed with and enjoyed much of what you have to say... however, what's up with your underlying rudeness in this thread... I won't and don't speak for CountryBoy as he is perfectly capable of presenting his views...

my own opinion of the highlighted statement above is that not only is it rude, but arrogantly so...  There are many ways to present an opposing or different view without resorting to what I deem to be uncalled for rudeness...  

 

GG

Perhaps you are right, Garden Girl.

If so, thank you for calling me on my arrogance and rudeness, even if "underlying" and "uncalled for."

However, I find it very frustrating to deal with someone who will not in fact engage the issues at all.  Perhaps it is beneath him, and I should simply be nice and accept his false statements as though they mean nothing -- and perhaps that is the best approach.

[UtahTexan]

 

I'm sorry that you find it so offensive that I ask of you repeatedly to indicate any substantive data you have learned in the course of your various journeys.  You have not responded, except to belittle any evidence on behalf of the Book of Mormon.  Your apriori views are very clear, but not buttressed by any evidence.  Instead you have provided a host of false statements about the Book of Mormon.  I have pointed these out to you, and you have not deigned to reply with anything but vague generalities and further false statements.

 

That's ok.  I have asked YOU numerous times to give me the exact location IN THIS HEMISPHERE, where the Book of Mormon took place and you have been unable to do so.   And I have not said a single FALSE thing about the Book of Mormon.  I want locations in THIS hemisphere.   You dodge by mentioning Jerusalem.  I ask for historical places that non-LDS scientists and historians agree on and you dodge some more.  I truly understand.

 

As I have said, there are many tourists and they can spend years doing touristy things.  That is not the same as serious academic study, and does not result in the ability to discuss the archeological or historical nature of a particular area or culture.  If you are so ashamed of being a tourist that you feel belittled by me, that says it all.  For there is no shame in being a tourist, just as there is no academic quality in it.  My only complaint about your touristy activities is that you attempt to make it appear that you actually learned something from it -- which you refuse to show, perhaps because you cannot.

 

lol...I said I lived somewhere...you caled me a tourist.  I told you where I visited and you still call me a tourist.  Fine.  You would rather be rude and condescending because you clearly have no answers.  You hide your lack of answers by being rude.  I get it.  

 

I

 

[UtahTexan]

Perhaps you are right, Garden Girl.

If so, thank you for calling me on my arrogance and rudeness, even if "underlying" and "uncalled for."

However, I find it very frustrating to deal with someone who will not in fact engage the issues at all.  Perhaps it is beneath him, and I should simply be nice and accept his false statements as though they mean nothing -- and perhaps that is the best approach.

 

Ah...so TWO people have called you on your condict and everyone is wrong but you.

 

So....I will make it easy.

 

Please..in the Americas......tell me the EXACT location where the Book of Mormon took place.  If it is historical, that should be easy.

 

Not Jerusalem.  Not Arabian Peninsulas.  The Americas.  Exact locations  

 

Thank you in advance

[Calm]

Perhaps you are right, Garden Girl.

If so, thank you for calling me on my arrogance and rudeness, even if "underlying" and "uncalled for."

However, I find it very frustrating to deal with someone who will not in fact engage the issues at all.  Perhaps it is beneath him, and I should simply be nice and accept his false statements as though they mean nothing -- and perhaps that is the best approach.

Or perhaps you are misunderstanding his intent (and he may be misunderstanding yours).

 

Have you read GG's and his thread in Social Hall (not sure if she posted a link or not, will post one below just in case she didn't)?  It can be hard to understand people when we only see just a small slice of them at a time.

 

I have been surprised on occasion to find that someone I thought for sure was playing games turned out to be a sincere seeker who just was having a bad day or didn't know that the way he was saying things were triggers for LDS.  Not making the claim here for CB as I haven't read him as a troll myself.  And one thing I love about Fairmormon is that we treat each questioner as someone who is sincere even in the cases when we are probably convinced they are not…and there have been some remarkably uplifting conversations I've seen because of that standard.

 

My apologies if this comes across as too much nannying, I just see what is happening here as a lost opportunity and that saddens me greatly.

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64338-was-it-chance-coincidence-not-to-me/

[Calm]

 

Please..in the Americas......tell me the EXACT location where the Book of Mormon took place.  If it is historical, that should be easy.

 

Not Jerusalem.  Not Arabian Peninsulas.  The Americas.  Exact locations  

 

And this can be easily misinterpreted in intent imo given the history of the discussion in of so many places on and off the internet.  I know it must be extremely frustrating to be where you are now looking for answers that work for you and not finding them, but patience and a good sense of humor can really pay off in the long run if only to make life more bearable.

Edited October 23, 2014 by calmoriah

[Kevin Christensen]

Ah...so TWO people have called you on your condict and everyone is wrong but you.

 

So....I will make it easy.

 

Please..in the Americas......tell me the EXACT location where the Book of Mormon took place.  If it is historical, that should be easy.

 

Not Jerusalem.  Not Arabian Peninsulas.  The Americas.  Exact locations  

 

Thank you in advance

I take it that you are asking for something like this?

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=mormonsites;id=2;url=http%3A%2F%2Fpoulsenll%2Eorg%2Fbom%2F

And of course, it is not only just the river, but the additional convergences that happen to be around that specific river. See Brant Gardner, John Clark, and Mark Wright, and of course, John Sorenson for additional details.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Ares]

Accusations of trolling and responses containing them have been removed. Please be nice.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Because I accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

 

I have read the Koran.  

Sigh. I guess dodge ball is in season. Why do you not accept the Koran? There are places in that book that are real and verifiable.

Why do you accept Jesus as the Son of God?

 

Is it because Jerusalem is a real place? Or is there more to it than that?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

That's ok.  I have asked YOU numerous times to give me the exact location IN THIS HEMISPHERE, where the Book of Mormon took place and you have been unable to do so.   And I have not said a single FALSE thing about the Book of Mormon.  I want locations in THIS hemisphere.   You dodge by mentioning Jerusalem.  I ask for historical places that non-LDS scientists and historians agree on and you dodge some more.  I truly understand.

This is just a dodge. Not knowing the "exact location" does not invalidate the truthfulness of something. You don't even accept what has been shown to be verifiable.

 

Why don't you put it all aside.

 

Why do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?

[UtahTexan]

Sigh. I guess dodge ball is in season. Why do you not accept the Koran? There are places in that book that are real and verifiable.

Why do you accept Jesus as the Son of God?

 

Is it because Jerusalem is a real place? Or is there more to it than that?

 

I already told you.

 

The Koran does use real places.

 

But, it does not accept Jesus as the Son of God.

 

And the Koran does not claim to be history.  It claims to be a book of teachings.

 

I am not sure what I am saying that is not explaining my position.

 

If a book claims to be historical, I simply believe we should be able to know where it took place.   

Edited October 23, 2014 by CountryBoy

[UtahTexan]

I take it that you are asking for something like this?

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=mormonsites;id=2;url=http%3A%2F%2Fpoulsenll%2Eorg%2Fbom%2F

And of course, it is not only just the river, but the additional convergences that happen to be around that specific river. See Brant Gardner, John Clark, and Mark Wright, and of course, John Sorenson for additional details.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

 

 

I will look at this site.  Thank you so much for the link.

[UtahTexan]

Accusations of trolling and responses containing them have been removed. Please be nice.

 

 

Thank you.

 

For the record, Nevo apologized to me.  It was a very cool and stand-up thing to do.

 

Thank you, Nevo.  I know many LDS posters MUST be cynical due to the actions of many posters.  Thank you for the dialogue.

[thesometimesaint]

We have no theology as to where the main events of the Book of Mormon took place. Personally I think the best candidate is Mesoamerica.

[UtahTexan]

We have no theology as to where the main events of the Book of Mormon took place. Personally I think the best candidate is Mesoamerica.

 

I know.

 

That is why I have trouble accepting the Book of Mormon as history.  I love the teachings.  There are some truly beautiful teachings...especially Alma 32.....simply wonderful.

 

That is why I asked the question in the OP

[Tacenda]

http://mormonstories.org/

 

501-502: Kirk Caudle on Mormon Studies, Working for BYU-Idaho, Resigning, Apologetics and More

 

This Kirk guy apparently doesn't feel the BoM has to be historical, if I heard right.  He cautions all to not throw out the baby with the bath water.  He believes there is definitely something to Joseph's church, not necessarily the institution since Joseph.  Now to wrap my head around staying in the church because of philosophies of men.  Or just staying because of the good youth program, or the great service opportunities.  I guess belief in the BoM as being historical isn't paramount, IMO.  BoM is a good read to implement a belief in Jesus Christ, so no harm, no foul.  But if it isn't historical, does the church need to be open with that information one day?  Will that keep more in the church?  Allow many to fully engage?  Or does that at the same time push many out?   

[bcuzbcuz]

This is a bad argument.

 

The languages of those we now call "Nephites" and "Lamanites" are now lost to the world- what you are asking for is what the names were for cities in languages that are now lost.

 

You might as well ask for the name of "Rome" in Proto-Indo European.  We don't know that language because it is lost.  Perhaps they did or did not have a word for the settlement that finally became "Rome", but certainly because we do not know the name they used, that does not prove that such a settlement did not exist.

 

The argument against historicity cuts both ways- if it cannot be used to "prove" the Book of Mormon, it also cannot be used to "disprove" it.

 

I think that is what some do not understand here.

 

Because the historical evidence for Nephites and Lamanites - using those words- is very slim, that does not prove they did not exist.  There are many lost tribes and languages and place names, now known as other peoples, other languages and other place names

 

Every word of the BOM could be literal history- we just can't prove it, any more than we could prove the historicity of any other lost people, language or place.

 

Who were the parents of Romulus and Remus ?  Did they really exist?  What about the place names mentioned here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

I apologize for not getting back earlier. I've spent the last week studying Pre-dynastic Egyptian pottery in England. I think that is relevant to this discussion because you describe the language of the Nephites and Lamanites as "lost". While I agree with you on the language part, because even if some evidence did show up we would have no idea how to pronounce any of it, there still might come a day when evidence appears that give us the physical characters of their language. Sort of like ancient Egyptian. Thanks to some very clever people in the early 1800's we can now read ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic and demotic and coptic scripts, but we have no idea how any of it sounds. The spoken language is forever lost.

But after many long hours in the Petrie Museum at University College of London, (I wasn't interested in the language, only the pottery), I was struck by the overwhelming amount of material there is from the general, not royal, public. When finds are made of bygone populations, once we get past the bling-bling of gold earrings and gold knife handles, there are literally millions of other, common, everyday objects that evidence the culture.

The famous Flinders Petrie, who, to his own chagrin, never made any earth shattering finds like the Rosetta Stone or Tut's tomb, returned from Egypt with almost 100,000 objects of daily life. He found mirrors of bronze, combs of ivory, perfume bottles of stone, farm tools, sewing tools,, even linen shirts. Studying the materials in his museum is like stepping back in time, to view life of the common man. They made clay models of their farm houses and cattle and sheep. They saved old paint brushes. Although it was not intended to be anything of importance, their garbage, of unfinished planning sheets, of records of days off from work, of wills and property purchases, of practise sheets of drawing heads or hands, have been found. There are love letters, one wife writes to complain to her husband, away on a trip,, that the neighbours have built a new, higher wall, and she wants one too, and thousands of similar small events, that tell of how people lived.

Even though no one to date has found any "Nephite" or "Lamanite" city, my expectation would be that such a find would also include the myriad of small, unimportant details of a "lost" culture.. There may be no "books" or written stuffs of a lost culture, but a culture of hundreds of thousnds, maybe millions of people,, would leave very tangible traces. Traces that identify their life, their work, their religion. So far, none of any of the above has been found.

[Garden Girl]

I do believe the BoM is historical... ever since I was a 17 year old seminary student and accepted Moroni's challenge... but I also love it for the beatiful teachings... particularly Alma 32.

 

When I was at BYU Education Week one year... I took a class on the BoM (can't remember the Prof but it was excellent).  One of my favorite, and interesting, points the Prof pointed out was in Alma 32, verse 28... 

 

"Now, we will compare the word unto a seed.  Now, if we give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts: and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves-- It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me."

 

S = Swell

E = Enlarge

E = Enlighten

D = Delicious

 

Based on Emma's saying that Joseph had difficulty writing or putting his thoughts in clear sentences thus used scribes, including herself... the thought that comes to me is there is no way Joseph could have written this beautiful but subtle description of comparing the "word unto a seed."

 

GG