rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 So you believe the Church is being led astray on the issue? To use a phrase from Elder Bruce R. McConkie: I believe that we may be operating with "limited understanding and without the light and knowledge" that we may still be yet to receive.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I have to go attend to a bad burn on my hand or i would look up the verses in Revelation that go with it. I hope your hand heals quickly.
BCSpace Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 To use a phrase from Elder Bruce R. McConkie: I believe that we may be operating with "limited understanding and without the light and knowledge" that we may still be yet to receive. The context there is a different issue. The Church is quite certain of it's position on SSM as per the recent Conference and in context said we don't compromise on it.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 The context there is a different issue. The Church is quite certain of it's position on SSM as per the recent Conference and in context said we don't compromise on it. There was also a time when the Church seemed quite certain of its position on race: President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.” And, the First President wrote on August 17, 1949: "The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes." They seem rather certain. And yet... "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form."
ksfisher Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Right. So allowing SSM would only require an expansion of our policy on marriage (a policy change we've made twice in the restored church), not a redefinition of sin.No, homosexual relations would have to be redefined as not a sin if the persons had a marriage certificate. This is much more than a policy change.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 No, homosexual relations would have to be redefined as not a sin if the persons had a marriage certificate. This is much more than a policy change. Accepting gay marriage as valid would bring those relations within the bounds of the law of chastity -- it's a change to marriage policy, not the definition of sin.
ksfisher Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Accepting gay marriage as valid would bring those relations within the bounds of the law of chastity -- it's a change to marriage policy, not the definition of sin.So if we all agree that a sin isn't a sin then everything is fine. We just have to ignore what those annoying prophets keep saying."We are grateful for a church “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”7 The Lord’s house is a house of order, and we need never be deceived about where to look for answers to our questions or uncertain about which voice to follow. We need not be “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.”8 God reveals His word through His ordained servants, “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.”9 When we choose to live according to the words of the prophets, we are on the covenant path that leads to eternal perfection."Live according to the Words of the Prophetshttp://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/live-according-to-the-words-of-the-prophets?lang=eng Edited October 9, 2014 by ksfisher
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 So if we all agree that a sin isn't a sin then everything is fine. We just have to ignore what those annoying prophets keep saying. Nope - I don't agree with that. "We are grateful for a church “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”7 The Lord’s house is a house of order, and we need never be deceived about where to look for answers to our questions or uncertain about which voice to follow. We need not be “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.”8 God reveals His word through His ordained servants, “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.”9 When we choose to live according to the words of the prophets, we are on the covenant path that leads to eternal perfection."Live according to the Words of the Prophetshttp://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/live-according-to-the-words-of-the-prophets?lang=eng I do agree with that.
SmileyMcGee Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 We just have to ignore what those annoying prophets keep saying.then good luck finding lessons elsewhere on the benefits of food storage for when the homosexuals cause a global food crisis because of their gay marriage...
Buckeye Posted October 9, 2014 Author Posted October 9, 2014 then good luck finding lessons elsewhere on the benefits of food storage for when the homosexuals cause a global food crisis because of their gay marriage... .... I tried to understand this sentence but my head exploded first.
california boy Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 then good luck finding lessons elsewhere on the benefits of food storage for when the homosexuals cause a global food crisis because of their gay marriage... Because we all know that God has not cursed the earth so far because of the rampant fornication his heterosexuals children are committing? And the almost a 50% divorce rate, a lot of which is caused by adultery that his heterosexual children are committing. And all the other sins and wars and killing going on in this world committed by the majority of the population that is straight. BUT now that His gay children can be married, well then, all hell is going to break loose. There will be famine in the land, the earth will be cursed, Christ will hasten His coming and all of mankind will be destroyed unless you have your food storage. Really??? I find it incredibly ironic that the church who used to condemn young men for not marrying, has now cursed gay men to a life of celibacy. A church who has drawn a circle around the importance of family now draws a circle prohibiting gay members from having a family. There seems to be no discussion about how celibacy is also against the plan of salvation. That it is not good for man to be alone. That there is great joy and great blessings in being married and having a family. That being married is also an essential part of our earthly experience. That by marrying in this life, we learn many of the valuable lessons God wants us to understand to prepare us to become more like Him. But if you are gay, well then, God is so angry that his gay children want those same blessings of marriage, that he will scorch the earth and bring about desolation and famine that the world has never seen. Does this all really fit in with the gospel of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation??? Some seem to have a problem with the whole plan of salvation collapsing because gays will not be able to create spirit children in the next life, even though no one has any clue how spirit children are created, yet these same members think that gays should be single in this life and then endure a life for eternity with a woman. And that for some reason that works for them. Or do those members really believe that God will wave a magic wand and change the very nature of His gay children and something they never wanted to do on this earth life, they will magically want to spend eternity with a woman? Is that how the plan of salvation works? Or does a celibate gay member have to spend eternity continuing to be celibate until he comes to his senses and falls in line and marries a woman for eternity. Yeah that sounds like a fantastic reward to a gay man. Can anyone understand why the Spirit whispers to some like Rockpond and many others that this policy is wrong and goes against the entire plan of salvation? That the law of chastity is no sex outside the bonds of marriage. Period. That sex outside of marriage is an abomination to God whether it is straight sex or gay sex. That two priesthood holders can indeed create worlds without end. That two priesthood holders can rule and reign over billions of spirits created by the power of the priesthood. Does this sound more like the plan of salvation to any of you? There is no revelation on how God feels about homosexual relations within to bonds of marriage. There is no scripture that tells how God feels about homosexual relations within the bonds of marriage. There is actually not a single word about homosexuality at all by Christ while he was on this earth or in the entire Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, yet the church is so sure that this time the got the understanding of temple marriage correct and no further light is needed on this subject. If homosexual marriage is really going to bring down the entire judgement of God and gay marriage will be that one issue that will curse the land with famine and pestilence then you think it would have been a bigger deal in the scriptures and while He was here on earth. 1
ksfisher Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Because we all know that God has not cursed the earth so far because of the rampant fornication his heterosexuals children are committing? And the almost a 50% divorce rate, a lot of which is caused by adultery that his heterosexual children are committing. And all the other sins and wars and killing going on in this world committed by the majority of the population that is straight. BUT now that His gay children can be married, well then, all hell is going to break loose. There will be famine in the land, the earth will be cursed, Christ will hasten His coming and all of mankind will be destroyed unless you have your food storage. Really??? I find it incredibly ironic that the church who used to condemn young men for not marrying, has now cursed gay men to a life of celibacy. A church who has drawn a circle around the importance of family now draws a circle prohibiting gay members from having a family. There seems to be no discussion about how celibacy is also against the plan of salvation. That it is not good for man to be alone. That there is great joy and great blessings in being married and having a family. That being married is also an essential part of our earthly experience. That by marrying in this life, we learn many of the valuable lessons God wants us to understand to prepare us to become more like Him. But if you are gay, well then, God is so angry that his gay children want those same blessings of marriage, that he will scorch the earth and bring about desolation and famine that the world has never seen. Does this all really fit in with the gospel of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation??? Some seem to have a problem with the whole plan of salvation collapsing because gays will not be able to create spirit children in the next life, even though no one has any clue how spirit children are created, yet these same members think that gays should be single in this life and then endure a life for eternity with a woman. And that for some reason that works for them. Or do those members really believe that God will wave a magic wand and change the very nature of His gay children and something they never wanted to do on this earth life, they will magically want to spend eternity with a woman? Is that how the plan of salvation works? Or does a celibate gay member have to spend eternity continuing to be celibate until he comes to his senses and falls in line and marries a woman for eternity. Yeah that sounds like a fantastic reward to a gay man. Can anyone understand why the Spirit whispers to some like Rockpond and many others that this policy is wrong and goes against the entire plan of salvation? That the law of chastity is no sex outside the bonds of marriage. Period. That sex outside of marriage is an abomination to God whether it is straight sex or gay sex. That two priesthood holders can indeed create worlds without end. That two priesthood holders can rule and reign over billions of spirits created by the power of the priesthood. Does this sound more like the plan of salvation to any of you? There is no revelation on how God feels about homosexual relations within to bonds of marriage. There is no scripture that tells how God feels about homosexual relations within the bonds of marriage. There is actually not a single word about homosexuality at all by Christ while he was on this earth or in the entire Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, yet the church is so sure that this time the got the understanding of temple marriage correct and no further light is needed on this subject. If homosexual marriage is really going to bring down the entire judgement of God and gay marriage will be that one issue that will curse the land with famine and pestilence then you think it would have been a bigger deal in the scriptures and while He was here on earth. So what I seem to be understanding from this is that you believe that you and Rockpond understand the will of the Lord in this matter, and that His chosen apostles and prophets do not. Is that a fair summary?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 So what I seem to be understanding from this is that you believe that you and Rockpond understand the will of the Lord in this matter, and that His chosen apostles and prophets do not. Is that a fair summary?Rockpond at the very least thinks this.
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 So what I seem to be understanding from this is that you believe that you and Rockpond understand the will of the Lord in this matter, and that His chosen apostles and prophets do not. Is that a fair summary? I don't know that either think that, but if they did, it certainly is possible.
thesometimesaint Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Because we all know that God has not cursed the earth so far because of the rampant fornication his heterosexuals children are committing? And the almost a 50% divorce rate, a lot of which is caused by adultery that his heterosexual children are committing. And all the other sins and wars and killing going on in this world committed by the majority of the population that is straight. BUT now that His gay children can be married, well then, all hell is going to break loose. There will be famine in the land, the earth will be cursed, Christ will hasten His coming and all of mankind will be destroyed unless you have your food storage. Really??? I find it incredibly ironic that the church who used to condemn young men for not marrying, has now cursed gay men to a life of celibacy. A church who has drawn a circle around the importance of family now draws a circle prohibiting gay members from having a family. There seems to be no discussion about how celibacy is also against the plan of salvation. That it is not good for man to be alone. That there is great joy and great blessings in being married and having a family. That being married is also an essential part of our earthly experience. That by marrying in this life, we learn many of the valuable lessons God wants us to understand to prepare us to become more like Him. But if you are gay, well then, God is so angry that his gay children want those same blessings of marriage, that he will scorch the earth and bring about desolation and famine that the world has never seen. Does this all really fit in with the gospel of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation??? Some seem to have a problem with the whole plan of salvation collapsing because gays will not be able to create spirit children in the next life, even though no one has any clue how spirit children are created, yet these same members think that gays should be single in this life and then endure a life for eternity with a woman. And that for some reason that works for them. Or do those members really believe that God will wave a magic wand and change the very nature of His gay children and something they never wanted to do on this earth life, they will magically want to spend eternity with a woman? Is that how the plan of salvation works? Or does a celibate gay member have to spend eternity continuing to be celibate until he comes to his senses and falls in line and marries a woman for eternity. Yeah that sounds like a fantastic reward to a gay man. Can anyone understand why the Spirit whispers to some like Rockpond and many others that this policy is wrong and goes against the entire plan of salvation? That the law of chastity is no sex outside the bonds of marriage. Period. That sex outside of marriage is an abomination to God whether it is straight sex or gay sex. That two priesthood holders can indeed create worlds without end. That two priesthood holders can rule and reign over billions of spirits created by the power of the priesthood. Does this sound more like the plan of salvation to any of you? There is no revelation on how God feels about homosexual relations within to bonds of marriage. There is no scripture that tells how God feels about homosexual relations within the bonds of marriage. There is actually not a single word about homosexuality at all by Christ while he was on this earth or in the entire Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, yet the church is so sure that this time the got the understanding of temple marriage correct and no further light is needed on this subject. If homosexual marriage is really going to bring down the entire judgement of God and gay marriage will be that one issue that will curse the land with famine and pestilence then you think it would have been a bigger deal in the scriptures and while He was here on earth. D&C 132 15-19 disagrees.
california boy Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 So what I seem to be understanding from this is that you believe that you and Rockpond understand the will of the Lord in this matter, and that His chosen apostles and prophets do not. Is that a fair summary?Wrong. What both Rockpond and I have stated repeatedly is that God has not revealed his will on this subject. No revelation has come. Of all the doctrines of the church, temple marriage has been the one that has changed the most. If you were to ask a prophet of the church in 1830, what the will of God was on marriage, they would have said marriage is one man and one woman If you were to ask a prophet what temple marriage was in 1840's and for the next 50 years, they would state emphatically that temple marriage is one man, many women. That doctrine was introduced by Joseph Smith himself.Him and Brigham Young would be rolling over in their graves if the church changed that doctrine, If you were to ask a prophet what temple marriage was in 1900's until 1978 what temple marriage was, they would say One man, one woman, no blacks. Now if you ask a prophet what temple marriage is, they are saying marriage is between one man and one woman. So which prophet understands the will of the Lord better? And is it possible that doctrine can change once again? 2
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 "We are grateful for a church “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”7 The Lord’s house is a house of order, and we need never be deceived about where to look for answers to our questions or uncertain about which voice to follow. We need not be “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.”8 God reveals His word through His ordained servants, “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.”9 When we choose to live according to the words of the prophets, we are on the covenant path that leads to eternal perfection."Live according to the Words of the Prophetshttp://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/live-according-to-the-words-of-the-prophets?lang=eng Off topic: I read Sister McConkie's talk last night when you linked to it. And I listened to Elder Christofferson's talk this morning. Both are interesting but even more interesting is to study the two together.
california boy Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 D&C 132 15-19 disagrees. Oh Yeah. That same revelation that clearly states polygamy is a Celestial Law. OOPs, jjust kidding, clearly states that marriage is between one man and one woman. OOOPs, you can't be black. OOOPs, yes you can be black. Yeah that revelation is so clear on what marriage should be. 1
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Rockpond at the very least thinks this. I don't. And you really ought to stop speaking for me. It's impolite and you are usually wrong.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 D&C 132 15-19. Those verses teach that if you don't marry in the covenant in this life that you "neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory". The Church no longer stands by that doctrine.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 So what I seem to be understanding from this is that you believe that you and Rockpond understand the will of the Lord in this matter, and that His chosen apostles and prophets do not. Is that a fair summary? I yield to California Boy's well written answer to this question.
ksfisher Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Off topic: I read Sister McConkie's talk last night when you linked to it. And I listened to Elder Christofferson's talk this morning. Both are interesting but even more interesting is to study the two together. I thought Sister McConkie's talk was one of the best I've ever heard. Aside from the subject matter I loved her delivery and the way she wove scripture into her thoughts. I haven't reviewed Elder Christofferson's talk yet, but I need to some time today.
thesometimesaint Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Those verses teach that if you don't marry in the covenant in this life that you "neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory". The Church no longer stands by that doctrine. CFR
rockpond Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 CFR From MormonsandGays.org as well as other similar statements by prophets and apostles: "Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next." 1
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