nosmelone Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 So I stumbled across this recent article from archaeology.org about the discovery of an Iron-Age Chieftains grave in Oman that is 2300 years old. It's a short article but gives an interesting description of a sword found in the grave. Here's the link, but I will just copy and paste the article because its so short. MUSCAT, OMAN—Muscat Daily reports that an ancient cemetery is being excavated ahead of a road construction project in Mudhaibi. One area of the cemetery dates to the third millennium B.C., and the other dates to the first millennium B.C. Among the oldest graves is one thought to be the 2,300-year-old tomb of a chieftain who had been buried with a male and a female camel, a sword with a hilt shaped as an eagle’s head, a robe, a conical woolen hat, and leather shoes. He also wore two daggers, one on each side of his waist. The sword and the daggers had been made of iron lined with steel—a style that may connect the burial to the Indus Valley, where it is thought that iron swords were first forged. Here's the link to the Muscat Daily artilce that sheds a bit more light on that sword. This is interesting when compared to the infamous sword of Laban. http://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/Oman/2-300-years-old-grave-in-Sinaw-could-be-Oman-s-biggest-archaeological-find-37sy 1
omni Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 So I stumbled across this recent article from archaeology.org about the discovery of an Iron-Age Chieftains grave in Oman that is 2300 years old. It's a short article but gives an interesting description of a sword found in the grave. Here's the link, but I will just copy and paste the article because its so short. MUSCAT, OMAN—Muscat Daily reports that an ancient cemetery is being excavated ahead of a road construction project in Mudhaibi. One area of the cemetery dates to the third millennium B.C., and the other dates to the first millennium B.C. Among the oldest graves is one thought to be the 2,300-year-old tomb of a chieftain who had been buried with a male and a female camel, a sword with a hilt shaped as an eagle’s head, a robe, a conical woolen hat, and leather shoes. He also wore two daggers, one on each side of his waist. The sword and the daggers had been made of iron lined with steel—a style that may connect the burial to the Indus Valley, where it is thought that iron swords were first forged. Here's the link to the Muscat Daily artilce that sheds a bit more light on that sword. This is interesting when compared to the infamous sword of Laban. http://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/Oman/2-300-years-old-grave-in-Sinaw-could-be-Oman-s-biggest-archaeological-find-37sy Find one in the America's dating to the time period of the BoM and you'll really turn some heads. 4
thesometimesaint Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Find one in the America's dating to the time period of the BoM and you'll really turn some heads. True, but irrelevant. Anti-Mormons have long maintained that steel is a modern invention. 2
USU78 Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 True, but irrelevant. Anti-Mormons have long maintained that steel is a modern invention. Yup. Even Wiki talks about it: Ancient steelSteel was known in antiquity, and may have been produced by managing bloomeries, or iron-smelting facilities, in which the bloom contained carbon.[15]The earliest known production of steel is a piece of ironware excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehoyuk) and is about 4,000 years old.[16] Other ancient steel comes from East Africa, dating back to 1400 BC.[17] In the 4th century BC steel weapons like the falcata were produced in the Iberian Peninsula, while Noric steel was used by the Roman military.[18]Steel was produced in large quantities in Sparta around 650 BC.[19][20]The Chinese of the Warring States period (403–221 BC) had quench-hardened steel,[21] while Chinese of the Han dynasty (202 BC – 220 AD) created steel by melting together wrought iron with cast iron, gaining an ultimate product of a carbon-intermediate steel by the 1st century AD.[22][23] The Haya people of East Africa invented a type of furnace they used to make carbon steel at 1,802 °C (3,276 °F) nearly 2,000 years ago.[24]
Zakuska Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Yup. Even Wiki talks about it:and we all know how reliable wiki is. <tongue-cheek>
cinepro Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) True, but irrelevant. Anti-Mormons have long maintained that steel is a modern invention. CFR. Here is how the steel anachronism is described in Wikipedia: he same as iron oxide. Steel and iron Steel and iron are mentioned several times in the Book of Mormon.[72] There is no evidence of steel (hardened iron) production in North, Central, or South America. Between 2004 and 2007, a Purdue University archaeologist, Kevin J. Vaughn, discovered a 2000-year-old iron ore mine near Nazca, Peru, however there is no evidence of smelting, and the ore (hematite) was apparently used to make pigments.[73] There are other numerous excavations that included iron ore.[74] He noted: "Even though ancient Andean people smelted some metals, such as copper, they never smelted iron like they did in the Old World... Metals were used for a variety of tools in the Old World, such as weapons, while in the Americas, metals were used as prestige goods for the wealthy elite."[75] Apologists counter that the word "steel" may be referring to another alloy of hardened metal such as the hardened copper alloy that is translated with the word "steel" in the King James Version of the Bible.[76] This alloy is in fact a hardened copper similar to bronze and not hardened iron.[77] Though usually more resistant to oxidation than iron, hardened alloys of copper can oxidize. It is therefore not certain that the mention of "rust"[78] is the same as iron oxide. Do you disagree with this? Edited June 11, 2014 by cinepro
thesometimesaint Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 CFR. Here is how the steel anachronism is described in Wikipedia: he same as iron oxide. Do you disagree with this?http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronismshttp://mybigquestions.info/My_Big_Questions/BOM_Anachronisms.htmlhttp://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/anmormon.htm Is that enough or do you need more to satisfy the CFR?
cdowis Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Find one in the America's dating to the time period of the BoM and you'll really turn some heads. Especially when we consider the fact that iron rusts and mesoamerica is a tropical climate, rather than a desert. Also, by the time of Mosiah, iron was considered a precious metal so it was not as common as the professional antimormons claim.
omni Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) True, but irrelevant. Anti-Mormons have long maintained that steel is a modern invention. That's an old critical argument that I thought had fallen by the wayside along with the "adieu" and "at Jerusalem" arguments. Every time I hear the steel argument brought up, it's always in relation to pre-Columbian steel. From what I understand, ancient steel has been known about for decades now. You might want to check your links again, I don't think they are making the claims you think they are. Edited June 11, 2014 by omni
thesometimesaint Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 That's an old critical argument that I thought had fallen by the wayside along with the "adieu" and "at Jerusalem" arguments. Every time I hear the steel argument brought up, it's always in relation to pre-Columbian steel. From what I understand, ancient steel has been known about for decades now. Apparently the Anti-Mormons didn't get the message. The Book of Mormon itself claims steel was rare and highly valuable. While it fits nicely in with this recent discovery in the Middle East. Physical conditions of the proposed Mesoamerican site for the Book are far different. So we await confirmation. 1
cinepro Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronismshttp://mybigquestions.info/My_Big_Questions/BOM_Anachronisms.htmlhttp://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/anmormon.htm Is that enough or do you need more to satisfy the CFR? Just so I'm clear, here are the two articles you linked to (although some might disagree, I don't consider "FAIRMormon" an explicitly anti-Mormon website): Steel and iron are mentioned several times in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 16:18, 2 Nephi 5:15, Jarom 1:8, Ether 7:9). While there is no evidence for hardened steel in the pre-Columbian Americas, there is some evidence for limited mining of iron and its use for making rudimentary tools and weapons. The Book of Mormon also refers to “swords” stating that “the blades thereof were cankered with rust” (Mosiah 8:11). This reference is in context of the discovery of the final battlefield of the Jeredites where an estimated 250,000 warriors were killed. No such battlefield has ever been found in archeological study, nor has any “sword” as we know them. Mesoamerican warriors are known to have used wooden clubs with imbedded blades of obsidian. Metallurgy did exist in the time period corresponding to the Book of Mormon, producing metals like iron, brass, copper, silver, and gold. These metals, however, were produced in relatively small amounts and used for prestige items for the wealthy elite. Mosiah 8:10 refers to brass and copper breastplates used for armor. No such thing existed in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica. Warriors did use leather clothing reinforced with pockets filled with sand as armor. vi) Anachronistic Metal Artefacts: The Book of Mormon mention bellows (1 Nephi 17:11), brass (2 Nephi 5:15), breast plates & copper (Mosiah 8:10), gold and silver currency (Alma 11), silver (Jarom 1:, and steel swords (Ether 7:9)? However, no evidence indicates that these items existed during Book of Mormon times. In fact, metallurgy did not appear until the 800s AD. What do you disagree with?
thesometimesaint Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Just so I'm clear, here are the two articles you linked to (although some might disagree, I don't consider "FAIRMormon" an explicitly anti-Mormon website): What do you disagree with? FairMormon isn't directly an Anti-Mormon site. It makes referenced to those that claim that steel was unknown during that time. "However, no evidence indicates that these items existed during Book of Mormon times. In fact, metallurgy did not appear until the 800s AD". No equivocation here just the outright claim that metallurgy didn't exist until 800 CE. Do you agree?
thesometimesaint Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 FairMormon isn't directly an Anti-Mormon site. It makes referenced to those that claim that steel was unknown during that time. "However, no evidence indicates that these items existed during Book of Mormon times. In fact, metallurgy did not appear until the 800s AD". No equivocation here just the outright claim that metallurgy didn't exist until 800 CE. Do you agree?
Zakuska Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Metallurgy in pre-Columbian America is the extraction and purification of metals, as well as creating metal alloys and fabrication with metal by Indigenous peoples of the Americas prior to European contact in the late 15th century. Indigenous Americans have been using native metals from ancient times, with recent finds of gold artifacts in the Andean region dated to 2155–1936 BCE.[1] and North American copper finds dated to approximately 5000 BCE.[2] The metal would have been found in nature without need for smelting techniques and shaped into the desired form using heat and cold hammering techniques without chemically altering it by alloying it. To date "no one has found evidence that points to the use of melting, smelting and casting in prehistoric eastern North America."[3] In South America the case is quite different. Indigenous South Americans had full metallurgy with smelting and various metals being purposely alloyed. Metallurgy in Mesoamerica developed from contacts with South America . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America Edited June 12, 2014 by Zakuska
cinepro Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) FairMormon isn't directly an Anti-Mormon site. It makes referenced to those that claim that steel was unknown during that time. "However, no evidence indicates that these items existed during Book of Mormon times. In fact, metallurgy did not appear until the 800s AD". No equivocation here just the outright claim that metallurgy didn't exist until 800 CE. Do you agree? Obviously the 800 CE date applies to proposed Book of Mormon lands. So, this would seem to bear: Metallurgy only appears in Mesoamerica in 800 CE with the best evidence from west Mexico. Much like in South America, fine metals were seen as a material for the elite. Metal's special qualities of colour and resonance seemed to have appealed most and then led to the particular technological developments seen in the region.[11] Edited June 12, 2014 by cinepro
thesometimesaint Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 Obviously the 800 CE date applies to proposed Book of Mormon lands. So, this would seem to bear: Still irrelevant. http://ldsmag.com/ldsmag/bookofmormon/080117nephi.html
cinepro Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 Still irrelevant. http://ldsmag.com/ldsmag/bookofmormon/080117nephi.html Were you referring to something specific in that article? I usually don't look to Meridian Magazine as a reference for the history of new-world metallurgy, and I didn't see anything pertinent in that link, but I may have missed it.
thesometimesaint Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 Were you referring to something specific in that article? I usually don't look to Meridian Magazine as a reference for the history of new-world metallurgy, and I didn't see anything pertinent in that link, but I may have missed it. That Nephi obviously knew about steel, even if rare and highly valuable among the Nephites.
bcuzbcuz Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 So I stumbled across this recent article from archaeology.org about the discovery of an Iron-Age Chieftains grave in Oman that is 2300 years old. It's a short article but gives an interesting description of a sword found in the grave. Here's the link, but I will just copy and paste the article because its so short. MUSCAT, OMAN—Muscat Daily reports that an ancient cemetery is being excavated ahead of a road construction project in Mudhaibi. One area of the cemetery dates to the third millennium B.C., and the other dates to the first millennium B.C. Among the oldest graves is one thought to be the 2,300-year-old tomb of a chieftain who had been buried with a male and a female camel, a sword with a hilt shaped as an eagle’s head, a robe, a conical woolen hat, and leather shoes. He also wore two daggers, one on each side of his waist. The sword and the daggers had been made of iron lined with steel—a style that may connect the burial to the Indus Valley, where it is thought that iron swords were first forged. Here's the link to the Muscat Daily artilce that sheds a bit more light on that sword. This is interesting when compared to the infamous sword of Laban. http://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/Oman/2-300-years-old-grave-in-Sinaw-could-be-Oman-s-biggest-archaeological-find-37syIt would be interesting if the article (or any article, for that matter) stated just what kind of steel the sword was made of. Was it a steel alloy, or a steel achieved by heat treating the carbon out of the iron, or whether the carbon was just beaten out of the iron?
Tiki Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 Especially when we consider the fact that iron rusts and mesoamerica is a tropical climate, rather than a desert. Also, by the time of Mosiah, iron was considered a precious metal so it was not as common as the professional antimormons claim.I thought gold and silver were considered precious metals and were mentioned as being found on the land in 1Nephi, long before Mosiah. Here Nephi talks about steel, which is made from iron.2 Nephi 5:1515 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.Never ceases to amaze how much can be unlearned when one embraces the Mesoamerica theory.Here's a screen shot of swords and cimeters, though made of copper, found in North America fromhttp://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bJOY4OtCj7Y
Robert F. Smith Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 It would be interesting if the article (or any article, for that matter) stated just what kind of steel the sword was made of. Was it a steel alloy, or a steel achieved by heat treating the carbon out of the iron, or whether the carbon was just beaten out of the iron?A blacksmith creates steel by beating carbon into the iron. Steel is carburized iron.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) Actually, this Oman find is very late, steel was being produced by the high culture and civilization in ancient South Arabia already by 1100 B.C., and you can read about it in Gus Van Beek, Hajar Bin Humeid: Investigations at a Pre-Islamic Site in South Arabia. What is far more interesting is the spectacular steel-bladed and gold-hilted dagger found in King Tut’s 18th dynasty tomb, which is not only of the same type as the sword described for Laban (I Nephi 4:9) nearly a millennium later, but may also have been an import. As for Mesoamerican iron, the Olmec (Jaredites?) were mining it and processing it centuries before the arrival of Clan Lehi. They used it to make highly polished haematite iron mirrors (perforated to be worn around the neck), and for other objects (tons of perforated iron cubes have been found in Olmec sites), but especially interesting is the magnetite compass "pointer" found by Michael Coe at the Early Formative Olmec site of San Lorenzo Tenochtitlán (Fuson 1969:508-510, Coe in Sharer & Grove 1989:79; Lowe 1989:44 [fig 4.6 item n],53-54; Coe & Diehl 1980:244-245 figs 251, 255). Coe told Fuson that this pointer was a flattened, oblong piece that is perfectly squared on all faces, and with a longitudinal groove extending along one surface. The object was made with such great care that it appears to be machined (Fuson 1969:508). Coe succesfully tested the pointer on a cork mat in a plastic bowl of water, and also suggested that the Olmec may have suspended magnetite mirrors on string for the same purpose. Fuson notes that the pointer could as easily have been floated on liquid mercury as a compass – mercury was available and extensively used in ancient Mesoamerica (Fuson 1969:508-510; cf. Baity 1973:443; Carlson 1981:117-147). Surface outcroppings of magnetite (lodestone) and other workable iron ores (ilmenite and hematite) were readily available in Oaxaca (Flannery 1976:40,58-60,317-325), where San Jose Mogoté seems to have been the primary center for the processing of such ores into elite exchange objects. It is not hard to imagine that such surface ore could be heated into a bloom (in an oven with bellows) and then beaten and quenched until a sword was formed. That is the way the great Viking and Japanese swordsmiths did it. Edited June 14, 2014 by Robert F. Smith 4
bcuzbcuz Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 A blacksmith creates steel by beating carbon into the iron. Steel is carburized iron.I would suggest that we're both wrong. I've never made steel. I don't know if you have. I've just pounded some iron on a smith's anvil, making a belt buckle, during a Viking history excursion, hardly scratching the surface (pun intended).Steel was made many thousands of years ago, that is not the issue. Who knew the technology and where that knowledge existed is an issue. Iron and steel products have been documented from many Asian sources. New world sources are debatable.
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