Bob Crockett Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I agree completely. While I think it's important that members who are struggling with historical issues have access to faithful answers, I am skeptical that giving more visibility to podcasts and websites about dealing with doubt and faith transitions will produce a net benefit for the Church. People that aren't already in a "faith crisis" shouldn't go anywhere near them in my opinion.As an aside, I'm a little uneasy about the faith crisis industry I see sprouting up with presumably well-meaning entrepreneurs looking to turn doubters into consumers of this or that book, website, or podcast. Maybe that is an inevitable development (supply and demand and all that) but I hate to see personal religious experience being commodified.Lot of wisdom in this. It seems these folks want to validate their own crises by getting others into doubt mode
omni Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) As an aside, I'm a little uneasy about the faith crisis industry I see sprouting up with presumably well-meaning entrepreneurs looking to turn doubters into consumers of this or that book, website, or podcast. Maybe that is an inevitable development (supply and demand and all that) but I hate to see personal religious experience being commodified. I don't get the sense that Bill is doing this for the money, and if he is, then based on what he's disclosed he needs to look for a another line of work. How is what he's doing different than FairMormon who also tries to help individuals with their faith crisis while asking for donations, selling books, DVD's, conferences, etc.? Edited May 4, 2014 by omni
Bob Crockett Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I don't think he is doing it for the money but he isn't operating as a non-profit. I've listened to several podcasts of Bill's and those he references. It seems that Bill, like Dehlin, wavers between belief and helping others to unbelieve. Dehlin is just more polished. Bill is less arrogant. But their approach is similar. FAIR is run by committee and there is less indication of unhappy doubt.
drums12 Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I have never thought bill was trying to help others disbelieve. I certainly wouldn't consider him in the same vein as dehlin
readstoomuch Posted May 4, 2014 Author Posted May 4, 2014 I started this thread with the basic question of where is the source/place that people having a faith crisis should be directed to and how do we get them there. There is a wide range of opinion about the whole issue. The latest segment seems to be with whether any apologetic site does any good. I get that and I was warned by an LDS historian and by a General Authority that I needed to balance research with the scriptures or faith-promoting activities. That did really help and I appreciate their efforts with me. I didn`t want to have a faith crisis and my parents found it inconvenient. I think we find many people`s problems inconvenient, whether they be with Scouting, SSM, LGBT issues, historical issues, etc. We can tell people to "leave them alone," but they still have the concern and often can`t just leave them alone. I know I felt betrayed and confused about what to believe. This year studying Joseph Fielding Smith is a reminder that I struggled with his writings. Most of them were just fine and still are today. Then there are others that were just plain wrong. So now I just try to learn from what was really a remarkable life, but it made my life quite hard thirty years. I worked through the issues, but others don`t or won`t work through their issues. It is work and requires maturity. Unfortunately, one option, is just to give up on God or the Church. IMO this problem in Church is not going away. It is not a problem that is unique to Mormonism. Most organized religions are losing a good portion of their young people. I think we can and have to do better. There needs to be an improvement in the manuals. I am sorry, but some are just atrocious. I taught the Thomas B Marsh lesson about a year ago. The lesson material was scanty and no one every really buys into the milk strippings story. The real story is so full of forgiveness and healing. The gospel is made so boring sometimes. It is so much more interesting and rich than is often portrayed. Finally, I don`t think Bill is John Dehlin. Any one who doesn`t exactly tow the standard Church line is a problem for someone though.
Tacenda Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I don't think he is doing it for the money but he isn't operating as a non-profit. I've listened to several podcasts of Bill's and those he references. It seems that Bill, like Dehlin, wavers between belief and helping others to unbelieve. Dehlin is just more polished. Bill is less arrogant. But their approach is similar. FAIR is run by committee and there is less indication of unhappy doubt.Whoa now, Bill is no John Dehlin!! And exactly how Bill is not with a committee, is why he needs help to pay for running the podcast. And the fact he did have a faith crisis, helps those like him trust him. They won't listen to the LDS apologist, no way. Bill's podcasts are a huge help, maybe even eliminating deep depression and loneliness of those going through it. But for the believer, if it were a perfect world I'd say it's a whole lot easier to have faith without all the evidence against. Or evidence that to some, feels wrong. Better they not run across these issues....but Teddyaware has a point, it's why we're taught to hold to the rod I guess, it's a test in the last days.A thought occurred, maybe Bill needs more people that have made it full circle to belief again. I'd love to hear an interview with Don Bradley or Maxine Hanks, that would be great. Or even cooler someone from this board, I'd love to hear from several on here. I'll donate just to hear those interviews, what do you think DB??
ERayR Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I have never thought bill was trying to help others disbelieve. I certainly wouldn't consider him in the same vein as dehlin I do.
ERayR Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I started this thread with the basic question of where is the source/place that people having a faith crisis should be directed to and how do we get them there. There is a wide range of opinion about the whole issue. The latest segment seems to be with whether any apologetic site does any good. I get that and I was warned by an LDS historian and by a General Authority that I needed to balance research with the scriptures or faith-promoting activities. That did really help and I appreciate their efforts with me. I didn`t want to have a faith crisis and my parents found it inconvenient. I think we find many people`s problems inconvenient, whether they be with Scouting, SSM, LGBT issues, historical issues, etc. We can tell people to "leave them alone," but they still have the concern and often can`t just leave them alone. I know I felt betrayed and confused about what to believe. This year studying Joseph Fielding Smith is a reminder that I struggled with his writings. Most of them were just fine and still are today. Then there are others that were just plain wrong. So now I just try to learn from what was really a remarkable life, but it made my life quite hard thirty years. I worked through the issues, but others don`t or won`t work through their issues. It is work and requires maturity. Unfortunately, one option, is just to give up on God or the Church.IMO this problem in Church is not going away. It is not a problem that is unique to Mormonism. Most organized religions are losing a good portion of their young people. I think we can and have to do better. There needs to be an improvement in the manuals. I am sorry, but some are just atrocious. I taught the Thomas B Marsh lesson about a year ago. The lesson material was scanty and no one every really buys into the milk strippings story. The real story is so full of forgiveness and healing. The gospel is made so boring sometimes. It is so much more interesting and rich than is often portrayed.Finally, I don`t think Bill is John Dehlin. Any one who doesn`t exactly tow the standard Church line is a problem for someone though. lds.org
DBMormon Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) I don't think he is doing it for the money but he isn't operating as a non-profit.I've listened to several podcasts of Bill's and those he references. It seems that Bill, like Dehlin, wavers between belief and helping others to unbelieve. Dehlin is just more polished. Bill is less arrogant. But their approach is similar. FAIR is run by committee and there is less indication of unhappy doubt. Bob you are right that I am not "non-profit" in the legal 501c3 sense. But it is also unfair to imply I personally make money off the podcast which I do not. It has been a net loss and inspite of being a loss, I continue to save what the podcast has made in an account to be spent on the podcast rather then reimburse myself for the loss. By the way, I would love to be a 501c3 except as you know it cost about a $1000 to do so if you do so through a lawyer and about $300.00 if you do the paperwork on your own but it is three different forms and about 40 pages of legal jargon - get a EIN, get reconized by the state as a entity, and then federal application for non-profit status. Also please point to an episode where I try to make people have doubts or where I am taking a view that the Church is not true and people should leave. Any who find my site are looking for help. I am not aware of one listener who does not have doubts or a close loved one in doubt and they have with deep concerns for them (other than my father in law who listens.) Edited May 4, 2014 by DBMormon
DBMormon Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 Whoa now, Bill is no John Dehlin!! And exactly how Bill is not with a committee, is why he needs help to pay for running the podcast. And the fact he did have a faith crisis, helps those like him trust him. They won't listen to the LDS apologist, no way.Bill's podcasts are a huge help, maybe even eliminating deep depression and loneliness of those going through it. But for the believer, if it were a perfect world I'd say it's a whole lot easier to have faith without all the evidence against. Or evidence that to some, feels wrong. Better they not run across these issues....but Teddyaware has a point, it's why we're taught to hold to the rod I guess, it's a test in the last days.A thought occurred, maybe Bill needs more people that have made it full circle to belief again. I'd love to hear an interview with Don Bradley or Maxine Hanks, that would be great. Or even cooler someone from this board, I'd love to hear from several on here.I'll donate just to hear those interviews, what do you think DB?? Have you listened to my interviews with Janet Eyring, Matt Francom, Britney Hartley, Ben Bird, Susan Swann, Karin Meacham, and Brian Whitney? These are all interviews with folks who lost faith to some level and then through a changing of assumptions and shifting paradigm returned to faith. That said I absolutely plan to do more of those.
Bikeemikey Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 (edited) I don't think he is doing it for the money but he isn't operating as a non-profit. I've listened to several podcasts of Bill's and those he references. It seems that Bill, like Dehlin, wavers between belief and helping others to unbelieve. Dehlin is just more polished. Bill is less arrogant. But their approach is similar. FAIR is run by committee and there is less indication of unhappy doubt.Non-profits can make money, they just don't have to pay tax. For profits frequently don't make money, they simply pay tax if they do.The idea that he is more likely to be money focused if he is not a non-profit is ridiculous. In fact, founding a non-profit is a far more guaranteed way to make more money (especially if you rely on donations).It has already been covered that it costs money to set up a non-profit. Edited May 4, 2014 by Bikeemikey
Bob Crockett Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) Bill. I have not said you are in it for the money. I have said you are not a non-profit. I have expressed concern about specific podcasts on this board. The last was Ashurst M. If you really want me to spell out details I can give them but that will only lead to hard feelings. I don't begrudge you your activity. I would just get in trouble sending a doubter your way. Edited May 5, 2014 by Bob Crockett
Bikeemikey Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Bill. I have not said you are in it for the money. I have said you are not a non-profit. I have expressed concern about specific podcasts on this board. The last was Ashurst M. If you really want me to spell out details I can give them but that will only lead to hard feelings.Why did you raise the issue of the non-profit status?
DBMormon Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Bill.I have not said you are in it for the money. I have said you are not a non-profit.I have expressed concern about specific podcasts on this board. The last was Ashurst M. If you really want me to spell out details I can give them but that will only lead to hard feelings. I don't begrudge you your activity. I would just get in trouble sending a doubter your way.If you are not saying I am in it for the money, what reason is there to hammer the non-profit issue? You seem to want people to think I am making money as we are talking about being legally recognized as a tax exempt entity which in the end changes very little about me or the podcast.... why is that an issue to you that is worth pointing out?
DBMormon Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Isn't it evident?not to me. I am curious why you see that as a red flag?
Bikeemikey Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Isn't it evident?No, hence the question. If you weren't making assertions about financial advantage from the podcast im honestly not sure why you raised it.
Bob Crockett Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 I repeat. I don't think Bill is in it for the money. Best wishes to his efforts.
Bikeemikey Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) I repeat. I don't think Bill is in it for the money. Best wishes to his efforts.Both bill and I have directly asked why you raised the non-profit status. Lacking an answer that provides clarity it looks very disingenuous for you to raise that issue then turn around and claim you don't think there is a financial motive with out clarifying your highlighting of the lack of non-profit status. Edited May 5, 2014 by Bikeemikey 2
Tacenda Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Bill. I have not said you are in it for the money. I have said you are not a non-profit. I have expressed concern about specific podcasts on this board. The last was Ashurst M. If you really want me to spell out details I can give them but that will only lead to hard feelings. I don't begrudge you your activity. I would just get in trouble sending a doubter your way.A believer yeah, but doubter? I don't quite understand your logic. His podcasts are geared towards helping the doubter regain their faith in a way that works for them.
Bob Crockett Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Both bill and I have directly asked why you raised the non-profit status. Lacking an answer that provides clarity it looks very disingenuous for you to raise that issue then turn around and claim you don't think there is a financial motive with out clarifying your highlighting of the lack of non-profit status.I'm sorry. I take back my observation that he is not a non profit. Would you like me to go back and edit that out?
Bikeemikey Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 I'm sorry. I take back my observation that he is not a non profit. Would you like me to go back and edit that out?No, I was just wanting clarification on the point you were trying to make.It appears you were simply stating the reality of his corporate status.Thanks for the clarification. 1
DBMormon Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 I do find it strange that I am accussed of causing doubt but no one has ever notified me of my having increased or started their doubts or faith crisis. Meanwhile I probaably have over 100 saved emails sent to me from people who say I have helped. Why is there such a need to paint me as a faith damager when the results are 100% the opposite of that? 2
Bob Crockett Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 I wish you the best, Bill. I have my opinion and you have yours. Don't worry about me.
DBMormon Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 I wish you the best, Bill. I have my opinion and you have yours. Don't worry about me.I was referring to ErayR who believes I cause doubt - I would love to CFR for one person, whom I caused doubts in?
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