JLHPROF Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) So a badly thought through post of mine was locked by the Mod's recently (and probably rightly so). I made an error in posting it in the first place. But this event did lead me to a question. The topic of my post was semi-speculative stories on polygamy of certain prophets of the Church. This was probably quite rightly shut down as an appropriate topic. But we consistently (and repeatedly) have speculative and historical discussions on the plural marriages and sexual nature of them of the Prophet Joseph Smith. We also frequently will discuss the polygamy and family life of Brigham Young. And there is no objection.So my question is: Are certain prophets/presidents of the Church more acceptably criticized than others and how do we justify that? Speaking evil of the Lord's anointed is never an acceptable behaviour, but why can we talk openly about the rumoured marriages of Joseph Smith and not about rumoured marriages of other later prophets? This also goes to the discussions recently on Brigham Young's administration wherein many people feel he professed incorrect doctrines and led the Church down erroneous paths. I have seen similar statements here about Joseph Fielding Smith professing strange doctrine. However, I never see such talk of David O. McKay, Spencer W. Kimball, or Lorenzo Snow. Ever.Are some prophets of our Church held in higher esteem than others and therefore are off limits for criticism? Edited March 25, 2014 by JLHPROF
cinepro Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 - Pre-manifesto Prophet = not scandalous to discuss polygamy (it's more scandalous to say they didn't practice polygamy) - Concurrent and immediately post-manifesto Prophet = mildly scandalous to discuss polygamy - Post-manifesto Prophet = discussion of polygamy is equivalent to accusing them of adultery or apostasy. 1
Coreyb Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I think there is definitely a tendency to disrespect certain church leaders. From my own humble observations, I have compiled this list of General authorities who have gotten the worst rap,at least by online Mormons. Enjoy Brigham Young Bruce R. McConkie Orson Pratt Harold B. Lee Joseph Fielding Smith Boyd K Packer Not saying I don't always disagree with some of the criticisms, but these guys could use a break from all the evilspeaking 1
Anijen Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) There is a difference between speaking ill of our leaders and stating history. i.e.Joe Smith was an adulterous gold digger.Joseph Smith at one time in his youth was employed to find lost treasure and as an adult he did practice polygamy. It is not just context but attitude and respect. Edited March 25, 2014 by Anijen 2
JLHPROF Posted March 25, 2014 Author Posted March 25, 2014 There is a difference between speaking ill of our leaders and stating history. i.e.Joe Smith was an adulterous gold digger.Joseph Smith at one time in his youth was employed to find lost treasure and as an adult he did practice polygamy. It is not just context but attitude and respect. Agreed.
JLHPROF Posted March 25, 2014 Author Posted March 25, 2014 I think there is definitely a tendency to disrespect certain church leaders. From my own humble observations, I have compiled this list of General authorities who have gotten the worst rap,at least by online Mormons. Enjoy Brigham YoungBruce R. McConkieOrson PrattHarold B. LeeJoseph Fielding SmithBoyd K Packer Not saying I don't always disagree with some of the criticisms, but these guys could use a break from all the evilspeaking This is true as I seem to frequently find myself in the position of defending something Brigham or Orson have said. But the other side of this coin is equally common.I never hear so much as a negative peep about Pres. McKay, Pres. Kimball, Pres. Hinckley and others. Criticizing them seems to be taboo. Not sure how some prophets have become whipping boys and others have become beyond reproach.
Wanderer7 Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I don't know if it's so much that some prophets are seen as better than others as much as the private lives of some are more clearly seen. I think it we could see into the private lives of all 15 men at the head of the church, there would be things we would wonder about just because they are mortal. The same would go for any of us. I personally admire men like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Bruce R. McConkie for their openness and willingness to state their opinions and not hide their mortal side. I think honesty and humility are the only real virtues anyone can possess.
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 This is true as I seem to frequently find myself in the position of defending something Brigham or Orson have said. But the other side of this coin is equally common.I never hear so much as a negative peep about Pres. McKay, Pres. Kimball, Pres. Hinckley and others. Criticizing them seems to be taboo. Not sure how some prophets have become whipping boys and others have become beyond reproach.Most critics are lazy and it is easier to pick on quotes that are already out there. Actually reading original sources to find more stuff takes effort. I. Have never met a critic that actually read the entire Journal of Discourses but they are happy to quote others quoting it.I think President Packer gets picked on unfairly. He actually has some of the most sensitive stuff out there but critics (again) never read that stuff.
cinepro Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I think there is definitely a tendency to disrespect certain church leaders. From my own humble observations, I have compiled this list of General authorities who have gotten the worst rap,at least by online Mormons. Enjoy Brigham Young Bruce R. McConkie Orson Pratt Harold B. Lee Joseph Fielding Smith Boyd K Packer Not saying I don't always disagree with some of the criticisms, but these guys could use a break from all the evilspeaking Wait, Harold B. Lee? Who has a problem with Harold B. Lee?!
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Wait, Harold B. Lee? Who has a problem with Harold B. Lee?!I have to admit that putting his name on the list surprised me a bit too.
thatjimguy Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 There is a difference between speaking ill of our leaders and stating history. i.e.Joe Smith was an adulterous gold digger.Joseph Smith at one time in his youth was employed to find lost treasure and as an adult he did practice polygamy. It is not just context but attitude and respect. But too much candy coating is Public Relations doctoring of words to make the truth sound not so bad. i.e.Joe Smith was an adulterous gold digger. (disrespectful)Joseph Smith at one time in his youth was employed to find lost treasure and as an adult he did practice polygamy (spin) When Joseph Smith was younger, he convinved people he could find lost treasure on their land for a fee with the use of a "peep stone". Also, he was married to multiple wives, some of which were as young as 14. 1
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Joe Smith was an adulterous gold digger. (disrespectful)Joseph Smith at one time in his youth was employed to find lost treasure and as an adult he did practice polygamy (spin) I would argue that both statements are spin. I would also say that if you know a way to teach history without spin I would be fascinated to hear it.
Coreyb Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Everyone who complains about church correlation blames Harold B. Lee
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Everyone who complains about church correlation blames Harold B. Lee I've complained a bit about correlated materials and never blamed President Lee. I see the need for correlation; I am just very rarely happy with how they go about the process.
Coreyb Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 I've complained a bit about correlated materials and never blamed President Lee. I see the need for correlation; I am just very rarely happy with how they go about the process.Like I said, just my observations having read many blogs and listened to many more pod-casts on Mormonism. Harold B. Lee is also blamed for the priesthood ban not being repealed much earlier. The story I believe comes from D. Micheal Quinn's Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, but I haven't read it yet, just heard it talked about alot.
thatjimguy Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 I would argue that both statements are spin. I would also say that if you know a way to teach history without spin I would be fascinated to hear it. Give me an example and I'll try.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Give me an example and I'll try. Meadow Mountain Massacre. Note that it counts as spin even if it is unintentional, unconscious, or even the opposite of the author's views.
thatjimguy Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 Meadow Mountain Massacre. Note that it counts as spin even if it is unintentional, unconscious, or even the opposite of the author's views. Sure, give me one I have to do homework for! I don't know much about it.
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