Tolerance Versus Acceptance

[california boy]

I am not trying to answer for someone else but not attending the wedding isn't "protesting" it is simply refusing to take part in a ceremony you don't agree with. I don't go to the Catholic Church and take their sacrament either but my not attending isn't a protest.

 

I understand that part of the issue.  What I am trying to understand is why someone feels gay marriage is immoral.  Isn't it the homosexual act that is immoral?  How does marriage make that act more immoral or so immoral that someone wouldn't attend their own sons wedding.  Someone has to explain the immoral part of the marriage itself which is what is being protested.

 

Would you go to a Catholic Church?  I can understand why you would not take their sacrament, but I can't understand why you would not attend a Catholic Church.  I certainly have attended Catholic weddings and no one thought I was affirming the Catholic faith.  How is this any different?  Now if you decided to be married to a same sex partner, then I can understand the communion part of the analogy.  But attending does not mean you embrace the Catholic religion.

[jaxenro]

If you owned a restaurant, would you server coffee? If you owned a grocery store, would you sell beer? If you worked in a grocery store as a clerk would you ring up alcohol for a customer? I am just trying to understand what you consider to be moral.

Good questions. I think I would need to address each situation and see. I think if my job required me to sell alcohol I would try to find other employment. If I owned a grocery store I would not sell beer.

Look at the Hobby Lobby chain that closes Sunday. Has it hurt them?

[jaxenro]

I understand that part of the issue. What I am trying to understand is why someone feels gay marriage is immoral. Isn't it the homosexual act that is immoral? How does marriage make that act more immoral or so immoral that someone wouldn't attend their own sons wedding. Someone has to explain the immoral part of the marriage itself which is what is being protested.

.

If I think homosexual relationships are immoral why would I then think giving societies seal of approval to that relationship would be moral? that makes no sense whatever. Homosexual relations are (I hope) a private between 2 or more males. Marriage is a public ceremony, either civil or religious, implying societies approval of that union. The former is a private action concerning the individuals neither asking for or requiring societies sanction. The latter is and as an individual I choose to withhold mine

[california boy]

Good questions. I think I would need to address each situation and see. I think if my job required me to sell alcohol I would try to find other employment. If I owned a grocery store I would not sell beer.

Look at the Hobby Lobby chain that closes Sunday. Has it hurt them?

How do you feel about Christ serving wine at a wedding?

[california boy]

If I think homosexual relationships are immoral why would I then think giving societies seal of approval to that relationship would be moral? that makes no sense whatever. Homosexual relations are (I hope) a private between 2 or more males. Marriage is a public ceremony, either civil or religious, implying societies approval of that union. The former is a private action concerning the individuals neither asking for or requiring societies sanction. The latter is and as an individual I choose to withhold mine

 

So you are choosing your own sons wedding to make a protest against what the law of the land is?  Would you not attend your own sons funeral if he was killed in a war that you did not feel the government should have never been involved in?

[jaxenro]

"So you are choosing your own sons wedding to make a protest against what the law of the land is?  Would you not attend your own sons funeral if he was killed in a war that you did not feel the government should have never been involved in?"

 

No I am refusing to participate in an act I consider immoral. You can keep tossing in red herring after red herring but the basic premise doesn't change. You simply don't seem to want to accept what I say at face value as meaning what I say.

 

I don't consider soldiers that die in an immoral war to have done anything immoral unless their individual action was immoral. In this case their duty to obey their elected leaders, as a component of society, outweighs their participation. But that duty is either compleed (by a draft) or compelled by their have joined the military and taken an oath to obey their superiors orders.

 

If I was drafted and ordered, as part of my duties, to attend a gay marriage I would. In that case I would feel the one duty, obedience to superiorss, would outweigh the other, individual conscience. But given a choice no I wouldn't.
 

Edited March 17, 2014 by jaxenro

[Shoefly]

Hello all - an illuminating and useful thread. Thank you!

[jaxenro]

"How do you feel about Christ serving wine at a wedding?"

 

I understand that different times can have different dietary restrictions. The moral principle involved is not alcohol in this case but adherence to God's law. Watered down wine and watered down vinegar were both drunk by the Romans as drinking the plain water of the time could make people sick. The Jews abstained from pork the Christians didn't. Dietary laws change due to changing conditions.

 

Sometimes moral choices aren't between good and evil but bad and worse. For instance if deemed medically necessary for the preservation of a mothers life then abortion is necessary. (Health can be too ambigous a term although physical harm would be another matter, depending). If under certain conditions partaking alcohol was deemed medically necessary to preserve life I would recommend partaking alcohol over loosing a life. Pain medications, although horrible, and immoral if used simply as a recreational drug, are moral under certain cinditions

 

And before you ask I view polygamy similarily. What matters is adherence to God's marriage laws and abstaining from fornication and adultery (two different things although you wouldn't know that today based on how people act) not how the marriage laws are structured.
 

Edited March 17, 2014 by jaxenro

[Ahab]

Was it against the law where you lived?

Yes. It's against the laws of God, which apply everywhere regardless of whether or not people choose to live by them. Edited March 17, 2014 by Ahab

[pogi]

No I think by living together, or simply engaging in same sex relations, they have crossed the moral line. As has been pointed eating in their home does not translate to condoning or approving of their relationship. Participating in their marriage, to me, does. To me the former is tolerance the latter approval. I have no hysterical reaction to gay marriage just like I have no hysterical reaction to drinking alcohol. I disapprove of both but I am around people that drink and have been in places that serve alcohol. But I wouldn't own a place that served alcohol.

I suppose it comes down to how you view guests at a marriage. I tend to follow what I consider to be the historical viewpoint that they are there to witness and support the action being taken, unlike a regular dinner which may simply be a gathering of friends.

 

Why could you not explain to your son that your attendance is not a sign of your approval, but of your acceptance and commitment to your relationship with him?

 

This is really no different than if I had a daughter who chose to marry outside of the covenant.  Should I approve of my daughter marrying outside of the covenant?  According to Sunday's gospel doctrine lesson - no.

 

This is directly from the lesson -

 

"Why was Abraham so insistent that Isaac marry a woman from his kindred rather than from the Canaanites, in whose land Abraham and Isaac lived? (Abraham wanted Isaac to marry someone of his own faith so he could marry in the covenant. This was necessary so the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant could be given to Abraham’s descendants.) Why is it important that we marry in the covenant? (If necessary, explain that in our day, the phrases marriage in the covenant, eternal marriage, and temple marriage are often used interchangeably.)

•How long has marriage in the covenant been a commandment of God? (It is an eternal ordinance that has been the Lord’s order in all ages when the fulness of the gospel has been on the earth. Adam and Eve were the first on this earth to enter into this ordinance.)"

 

 Would I not attend my own daughter's wedding because she is marrying outside of the covenant, absolutely not.  That would be devastating to my relationship with my daughter and my new son-in-law.  As I said before, our relationships with our children are more sacred than any imagined duty to publicly make our disapproval known.  It's not like she wouldn't already know of your disapproval.  Why publicly humiliate her and risk loosing a relationship with her?

Edited March 17, 2014 by pogi

[DJBrown]

If a friend or relative invited you to attend a same sex marriage ceremony would you attend? And would you consider attendance tacit approval?

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

Same sex marriage is absolutely antithetical to all of creation and God's purposes.

 

What makes attending a same-sex wedding ceremony any different than attending an idolatrous ceremony directed toward worshiping Lucifer?

 

This may sound extreme and ridiculous.  But I think we have been conditioned toward accepting same-sex marriage more than we think.

 

Being friendly and genuine and showing Christ-like charity toward a person who seeks a same-sex marriage is certainly the appropriate and right thing to do.  But in my opinion, attending a celebration and ceremony wherein same-sex marriage is the focus of celebration is a step over the line.

[jaxenro]

Would I not attend my own daughter's wedding because she is marrying outside of the covenant, absolutely not. That would be devastating to my relationship with my daughter and my new son-in-law. As I said before, our relationships with our children are more sacred than any imagined duty to publicly make our disapproval known. It's not like she wouldn't already know of your disapproval. Why publicly humiliate her and risk loosing a relationship with her?

Why would my private decision not to attend be construed as "publicly making my disapproval known"? I am simply absent and my absence and it's reasons are my private matter.

If, as many of you claim, my attendance does not constitute approval how can you claim my absense constitutes disapproval? You can't have it both ways.

[pogi]

Same sex marriage is absolutely antithetical to all of creation and God's purposes.

 

What makes attending a same-sex wedding ceremony any different than attending an idolatrous ceremony directed toward worshiping Lucifer?

 

Read my last post.

 

What makes attending a same-sex wedding ceremony any different than attending your daughter's wedding which is outside of the covenant with a man that she has been living with?

 

Your attendance doesn't have to be about the ceremony, but it should be about your son or daughter. 

 

This may sound extreme and ridiculous.  But I think we have been conditioned toward accepting same-sex marriage more than we think.

 

We should accept sam-sex marriage if it becomes legal.    That does not mean that we have to approve.   There is a difference.  I accept lots of laws that I don't necessarily approve of.  That is part of living in a civil society. 

[Gray]

Quick question - if you attend a Catholic wedding, does that mean you are affirming the truth of all Catholic teachings?

[Gray]

I will try to tread the fine line on this one so I don't get blocked again but where does tolerance cross the line to acceptance? I know hate the sin but love the sinner and I am not, will not, and never have or will advocate any form of violence or other types of harassment in any way but where would you draw the line?

If a friend or relative invited you to attend a same sex marriage ceremony would you attend? And would you consider attendance tacit approval?

 

 

I would attend, and not consider attendance is not tacit approval, any more than attending a university graduation means you agree with all university policies or all the course material taught.  

Edited March 17, 2014 by Gray

[jaxenro]

I would attend, and not, attendance is not tacit approval, any more than attending a university graduation means you agree with all university policies or all the course material taught.

As I said each of us is different and must decide for ourselves. I view attendance at a wedding to be tacit approval but I understand why others do not. If I did not approve of who my daughter was marrying I wouldn't attend either but fortunately I seem to have level headed children

What I don't understand is why I seem more tolerant of others decision they would attend than they do of mine that I wouldn't?

[jaxenro]

Quick question - if you attend a Catholic wedding, does that mean you are affirming the truth of all Catholic teachings?

No it means you are giving your approval to the man and wife leaving society as two individuals and entering it as one couple joined together. They enter the church as mr smith and miss jones but leave as mr and mrs smith (used to anyways)

[pogi]

Why would my private decision not to attend be construed as "publicly making my disapproval known"? I am simply absent and my absence and it's reasons are my private matter.

 

If you have already made your disapproval known privately, then your non-attendance would only be a less-private sign of your disapproval.  Either that or you would be viewed as the care-less, heart-less father who slept in.   Your son would already know that you don't approve, your not being there isn't going to change anything...well except for your relationship with your son perhaps.  

 

If, as many of you claim, my attendance does not constitute approval how can you claim my absense constitutes disapproval? You can't have it both ways.

 

Your attendance does not constitute approval when you explain it to your son that way.  How can you not see that?  How could I claim that your absence constitutes disapproval? Well, because you have said as much.  I'm sure you would explain to your son the reason why you are not attending is because you don't approve, right?

[Gray]

No it means you are giving your approval to the man and wife leaving society as two individuals and entering it as one couple joined together. They enter the church as mr smith and miss jones but leave as mr and mrs smith (used to anyways)

 

Does it mean then that you approve of marriage outside the temple? 

[Gray]

As I said each of us is different and must decide for ourselves. I view attendance at a wedding to be tacit approval but I understand why others do not. If I did not approve of who my daughter was marrying I wouldn't attend either but fortunately I seem to have level headed children

What I don't understand is why I seem more tolerant of others decision they would attend than they do of mine that I wouldn't?

 

Just my opinion, but I would consider it mandatory to attend a child's wedding. Just a part of being there for your children. Approval notwithstanding. I don't understand your view, but I hope I'm not intolerant.

[jaxenro]

Does it mean then that you approve of marriage outside the temple?

Yes for those not of the LDS faith, especially if the alternative is no marriage

The church approves of marriage outside the temple why should I?

[Gray]

Yes for those not of the LDS faith, especially if the alternative is no marriage

The church approves of marriage outside the temple why should I?

 

Since there are no marriage options available in the church for gay couples, isn't their outside of the church wedding a "best case scenario given their situation" just like the Catholic couple in my example? Is the state of non-married cohabitation preferable in your view, when it comes to gays? 

[jaxenro]

Your attendance does not constitute approval when you explain it to your son that way. How can you not see that? How could I claim that your absence constitutes disapproval? Well, because you have said as much. I'm sure you would explain to your son the reason why you are not attending is because you don't approve, right?

My attendance would constitute approval to me. At thd end of the day I would know in my heart that, to me, attendance would equal approval.

We live in a time of hard moral choices. Easier perhaps in making a living, and obtaining food, but harder in that society is moving further and further from our beliefs. There are no real guidelines for some of this but individual choices. I understand yours you don't understand mine but I doubt eithe of us will change

[pogi]

As I said each of us is different and must decide for ourselves. I view attendance at a wedding to be tacit approval but I understand why others do not. If I did not approve of who my daughter was marrying I wouldn't attend either but fortunately I seem to have level headed children

What I don't understand is why I seem more tolerant of others decision they would attend than they do of mine that I wouldn't?

 

You seem to be confusing dialogue, disagreement, and disapproval with intolerance.  I simply think that it would be an unwise decision to not attend and is a clear confusion of priority.  Family should always come before the imagined need to make your position crystal clear beyond doubt.  Once they have decided (knowing of your disapproval), you should accept the truth of what is, even if you disapprove, or you might lose a son.  It simply isn't worth it.  You have everything to lose and nothing to gain by not attending.   

 

Of course I accept your decision to not attend, I simply don't approve.  That is tolerance. 

[Buzzard]

We live in a time of hard moral choices                    

And those choices are not likelier to get easier. I cannot imagine missing a child's wedding, and I cannot imagine giving my tacit approval to a same sex marriage, official or not. 

For those who ask if it would be better for them to remain unmarried, I see zero difference, even if the marriage has the stamp of secular legality. And I do see a difference when a man and woman join in marriage. Sorry if this makes CB's head explode. 

Edited March 17, 2014 by Buzzard