Tolerance Versus Acceptance

[jaxenro]

I will try to tread the fine line on this one so I don't get blocked again but where does tolerance cross the line to acceptance? I know hate the sin but love the sinner and I am not, will not, and never have or will advocate any form of violence or other types of harassment in any way but where would you draw the line?

If a friend or relative invited you to attend a same sex marriage ceremony would you attend? And would you consider attendance tacit approval?

Edited March 15, 2014 by jaxenro

[Bikeemikey]

I personally think we should probably practice both.

[Duncan]

I will try to tread the fine line on this one so I don't get blocked again but where does tolerance cross the line to acceptance? I know hate the sin but love the sinner and I am, will, and never advocate any form of violence or other types of harassment in any way but where would you draw the line?

If a friend or relative invited you to attend a same sex marriage ceremony would you attend? And would you consider attendance tacit approval?

 

 

I have a few gay friends, one of whom is married. Actually all grew up in the Church and served missions, but anyways one is married to a fella. I congratulated him, he doesn't live here anymore he was excited the Temple is coming here, no harm no foul on anyone's part. I am not gay myself.  I have attended other religion's ceremonies and I don't see that as my tacit approval of what they do. Funnily enough a friend of mine didn't want to get sealed in the Temple (because, according to her, it took too long) so they got married in a hotel and that ceremony was even longer dot dot dot

[jaxenro]

Isn't the marriage ceremony (not the Temple ceremony) itself historically adding God's and societies seal of approval on the match?

[Bikeemikey]

Isn't the marriage ceremony (not the Temple ceremony) itself historically adding God's and societies seal of approval on the match?

Well two thoughts:

As has been noted in other threads the USA govt did not monitor marriages (rather just divorces) until mid 1800's.

Secondly, there is a big difference between recording someone else's decision (govts role relating to marriage) and actively approving it.

[Bikeemikey]

Isn't the marriage ceremony (not the Temple ceremony) itself historically adding God's and societies seal of approval on the match?

Well two thoughts:

As has been noted in other threads the USA govt did not monitor marriages (rather just divorces) until mid 1800's. Govt acceptance of marriage has no bearing on God.

Secondly, there is a big difference between recording someone else's decision (govts role relating to marriage) and actively approving of it.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[jaxenro]

"Secondly, there is a big difference between recording someone else's decision (govts role relating to marriage) and actively approving of it"

 

I wasn't asking if you would record but but if you would give tacit approval by attending in a private capacity. And I am leaving commerce out of it so no fair access rules apply.

[Bikeemikey]

"Secondly, there is a big difference between recording someone else's decision (govts role relating to marriage) and actively approving of it"

I wasn't asking if you would record but but if you would give tacit approval by attending in a private capacity. And I am leaving commerce out of it so no fair access rules apply.

So let's talk hypothetical.

If I met someone and became friends with them and then they shared with me that they were gay I would not stop being their friend: why, because of the characteristics that caused me to be friends with them would still be present.

If they decided to get married would I then attend if invited, absolutely.

Let's ask another question.

When was the last time you didn't go to a friends house for a birthday dinner because they would be serving alcohol?

Or perhaps you live in a place where you may not have many close friends who are not members?

[jaxenro]

"When was the last time you didn't go to a friends house for a birthday dinner because they would be serving alcohol?"

 

Interesting question. I rarely have friends that are members yet I have always avoided places that served alcohol, including friends and family members houses, for private reasons I prefer not to state publicly. So yes I have missed my brothers birthday because he served alcohol

[Bikeemikey]

"When was the last time you didn't go to a friends house for a birthday dinner because they would be serving alcohol?"

Interesting question. I rarely have friends that are members yet I have always avoided places that served alcohol, including friends and family members houses, for private reasons I prefer not to state publicly. So yes I have missed my brothers birthday because he served alcohol

I hope you have some very compelling reasons to make that decision.

[CV75]

I will try to tread the fine line on this one so I don't get blocked again but where does tolerance cross the line to acceptance? I know hate the sin but love the sinner and I am not, will not, and never have or will advocate any form of violence or other types of harassment in any way but where would you draw the line?

If a friend or relative invited you to attend a same sex marriage ceremony would you attend? And would you consider attendance tacit approval?

I think it depends on the relationship, which can be very complicated. Sometimes a friend won’t invite a friend he knows is not supportive of what he is doing politically, religiously, romantically, legally, morally, etc. But if he does, it (as well as attending) could just be an indicator that the basis of the relationship is more important than these other things.

 

Sometimes we need to ask ourselves, "Are we tolerating the relationship, or accepting it?" I think that is sometimes more difficult than acquaintances, friends and loved ones knowing where each other stands--the better you know someone, typically you already know; the less you know him, the less important it is to accept an invite.

[jaxenro]

I hope you have some very compelling reasons to make that decision.

Let's say I take my duties as a husband more seriously than any other except perhaps father. My life is an open book I will answer any question by I do shield my families privacy

[Bikeemikey]

Let's say I take my duties as a husband more seriously than any other except perhaps father. My life is an open book I will answer any question by I do shield my families privacy

That's great... My point was more that not attending a family birthday celebration for your brother only because there is alcohol present seems a little extreme unless there are other factors that are driving the decision.

[jaxenro]

Painful would be anothe word

[Bikeemikey]

Painful would be anothe word

I can only imagine.

[jaxenro]

Like many situations we do what we think is right based on a lot of different factors. I know some may think I am old fashioned (or insane) based on my views of gender based roles within marriage, and society, but these are things I take seriously and have been discussing them for 30 odd years in various formats. As a husband who believes in his responsibility to protect his family I have to make painful decisions at times for what I thought was the greater good for those under my care. Made a lot of mistakes along he way though

Edited March 16, 2014 by jaxenro

[Bikeemikey]

Like many situations we do what we think is right based on a lot of different factors. I know some may think I am old fashioned (or insane) based on my views of gender based roles within marriage, and society, but these are things I take seriously and have been discussing them for 30 odd years in various formats. A a husband who believes in his responsibility to protect his family I have to make painful decisions at times for what I thought was the greater good for those under my care. Made a lot of mistakes along he way though

That's all any of us can strive for!

[thesometimesaint]

Isn't the marriage ceremony (not the Temple ceremony) itself historically adding God's and societies seal of approval on the match?

 

At its most basic the marriage ceremony is societies approval of sex.

[jaxenro]

"If I met someone and became friends with them and then they shared with me that they were gay I would not stop being their friend: why, because of the characteristics that caused me to be friends with them would still be present.

If they decided to get married would I then attend if invited, absolutely."

 

Life doesn't give us easy choices. Personally I wouldn't attend as I couldn't sustain, support, or celebrate a union I so consider to contravene God's law.

[Bikeemikey]

"If I met someone and became friends with them and then they shared with me that they were gay I would not stop being their friend: why, because of the characteristics that caused me to be friends with them would still be present.

If they decided to get married would I then attend if invited, absolutely."

 

Life doesn't give us easy choices. Personally I wouldn't attend as I couldn't sustain, support, or celebrate a union I so consider to contravene God's law.

 

But despite the fact you couldn't "sustain, support, or celebrate a union", that does not mean you should not, "sustain, support, or celebrate a person".

[jaxenro]

But despite the fact you couldn't "sustain, support, or celebrate a union", that does not mean you should not, "sustain, support, or celebrate a person".

 

Yes but to me attending the ceremony would be the former and not the latter. I don't condemn you for your choice, or say it's wrong, just disagree with it for me. Like I said life gives us hard choices, especially today, and we are each accountable for how we choose.

[Bikeemikey]

Yes but to me attending the ceremony would be the former and not the latter. I don't condemn you for your choice, or say it's wrong, just disagree with it for me. Like I said life gives us hard choices, especially today, and we are each accountable for how we choose.

So effectively that terminates relationships with those who do not follow your moral beliefs. Has that been your experience, or have you had relationships that have survived such decisions?

Edited March 16, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Tacenda]

Like many situations we do what we think is right based on a lot of different factors. I know some may think I am old fashioned (or insane) based on my views of gender based roles within marriage, and society, but these are things I take seriously and have been discussing them for 30 odd years in various formats. As a husband who believes in his responsibility to protect his family I have to make painful decisions at times for what I thought was the greater good for those under my care. Made a lot of mistakes along he way though

ETA: Didn't mean to quote this post but the one on missing your brother's birthday.

Extended family should take precedence over WoW, how many moments are missed because of WoW rules? That's maybe why a lot of laws were over and done with when the Saviour came. But for some reason the LDS wants to hold onto them....what we put in our mouths vs. what comes out? IOW, what you missed because of it. Jesus even said it's not what we put in our mouths but what we say, that counts. Your brother missed you and your family's presence, over what he put in his mouth. I relate though, l chose WoW rules over my siblings, oh how I missed the mark because of the law of the WoW, laws that were done away with when the Lord came.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Tacenda

[jaxenro]

Extended family should take precedence over WoW, how many moments are missed because of WoW rules? That's maybe why a lot of laws were over and done with when the Saviour came. But for some reason the LDS wants to hold onto them....what we put in our mouths vs. what comes out? IOW, what you missed because of it. Jesus even said it's not what we put in our mouths but what we say, that counts. Your brother missed your presence, over what he put in his mouth. I relate though, l chose WoW rules over my siblings keep me from them, oh how I missed the mark because of the law of the WoW, laws that were done away with when the Lord came.

No it wasn't W of W it predates my joining the church.

[Tacenda]

No it wasn't W of W it predates my joining the church.

Ok, sorry I presumed.