Polygamy' Effect On Population

[omni]

You alleged:

 

Where, when and to whom is that happening today?

 

Where when and to whom has that happened within the past century?

 

 

 

Why do you keep creating this straw man?  I never claimed the church is currently practicing polygamy or that the church is currently experiencing those problems.  

 

Where and when did it ever happen other than a very brief period during the reformation of the 1850s when there was such a rush to obey counsel that by some accounts, there may have been a  brief shortage of women in the territory? And even regarding that period, do you have anything definitive?

 

 

 

It's simple mathematics.  You can see the effects of this in modern FLDS communities where "unrighteous" men are kicked out of the community.  I believe BY's solution to the problem was simply to send the men on  missions...long ones.

 

 

I have not disputed this. In fact, I agreed with the sometimesaint when he said it, and I added that, for this reason, polygamy could not have continued in the Church permanently.

 

Other than reacting to my last couple of posts, have you been following this thread at all?

 

 

 

Yes I have.  You have defended polygamy by stating that it allowed more women to marry righteous husbands and therefore raise up seed.  First of all this presumes that it would be unlikely for a worthy woman who marries an unworthy man to raise righteous seed, but not the reverse.  Second, it makes it impossible or at the very least significantly more difficult for all LDS men to get sealed.  The church practiced polygamy for six decades in Utah which might seem like a brief time from an historical perspective, but I bet for those men left on the outside looking in, it was an eternity.  Polygamy doesn't work in the short term or the long term, it simply doesn't work.

 

The church didn't discontinue the practice of polygamy because of the aforementioned problems, but because of the intense pressure from the Federal government.  For all we know the church would still be practicing it today if the Feds had just let those early saints live in peace. 

[katherine the great]

The topic of this thread has nothing to do with the purpose of Mormon polygamy.  Hal is writing a scientific paper to further understand how polygamy influences the evolutionary fitness of males vs. females.  Utah just happened to be a perfect test subject because demographic information is readily available and because it waned out at the beginning of the 20th century.  The reasons for it don't matter.  It's a very good population to study.  Way to open a can of worms Hal... 

Edited March 6, 2014 by katherine the great

[Scott Lloyd]

Why do you keep creating this straw man?  I never claimed the church is currently practicing polygamy or that the church is currently experiencing those problems.  

 

Then why did you speak in the present tense as though it were? The strawman is on your part, it seems.

It's simple mathematics.  You can see the effects of this in modern FLDS communities where "unrighteous" men are kicked out of the community.  I believe BY's solution to the problem was simply to send the men on  missions...long ones.

 

Yes I have.  You have defended polygamy by stating that it allowed more women to marry righteous husbands and therefore raise up seed.

 

  I have suggested a reason for the temporary institution of plural marriage that seems consistent with what is contained in Jacob 5 of the Book of Mormon.

 

First of all this presumes that it would be unlikely for a worthy woman who marries an unworthy man to raise righteous seed, but not the reverse.  

 

On the contrary, I'm saying that where both parents are worthy and faithful, it is more likely that the children in the family will be reared to be righteous and faithful as well.

 

Second, it makes it impossible or at the very least significantly more difficult for all LDS men to get sealed.

 

Under some circumstances, yes. I have said at much. But what you seem determined to ignore is that up until the cessation of plural marriage and beyond, there was a constant influx of immigrant converts to the Church flowing into Utah Territory. This, perhaps combined with the fact that not every faithful Church member in the Church practiced it, apparently served to postpone a consequence such as you state above.

 

The church practiced polygamy for six decades in Utah which might seem like a brief time from an historical perspective, but I bet for those men left on the outside looking in, it was an eternity.

 

 

 

What men on the outside looking in? The ones who weren't worthy for a temple marriage in the first place?

 

Are you just going to ignore my challenge to provide evidence that this was happening to a significant portion of faithful and worthy men in Utah Territory, or are we expected swallow your supposition whole without reservation?

 

 Polygamy doesn't work in the short term or the long term, it simply doesn't work.

 

CFR that it doesn't work in the short term. It worked well enough in pioneer-era Utah. I owe my gospel legacy in part to an ancestor in southern Utah who practiced marriage. I daresay many in the Church likewise have that sort of legacy.

 

It would have worked better had the Saints been left alone to enjoy their constitutional rights of freedom of religion.

 

Though I'm grateful it is in the past and hope and expect I will never have to live it, I honor and give gratitude to those faithful Mormon pioneer women and men who obeyed the commandment of God in their time.

 

The church didn't discontinue the practice of polygamy because of the aforementioned problems, but because of the intense pressure from the Federal government.

That was the proximate cause of the cessation, but I maintain it could not have continued permanently because it was not sustainable. And it had accomplished its purpose.

 

For all we know the church would still be practicing it today if the Feds had just let those early saints live in peace. 

Whoah! Didn't you just tell us that it can't go on indefinitely because that is mathematically impossible? I thought we were agreed on that. Now you are changing your tune.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

The topic of this thread has nothing to do with the purpose of Mormon polygamy.  Hal is writing a scientific paper to further understand how polygamy influences the evolutionary fitness of males vs. females.  Utah just happened to be a perfect test subject because demographic information is readily available and because it waned out at the beginning of the 20th century.  The reasons for it don't matter.  It's a very good population to study.  Way to open a can of worms Hal... 

My apologies to halconero, but I just can't let false assertions and premises go unchallenged.

[Calm]

 

And other than a relatively brief period the during the reformation of the 1850s, what evidence do you have that a significant population of worthy Mormon men were being denied the blessings of being sealed?

my memory says that the unmarried men ratio to unmarried women was not all that significant at the time as well as the unmarried men stat being lower than elsewhere in the States, though assuming that more of the unmarried men were nonmembers than unmarried women (men being more transient and independent of movement han women at that time) might actually move the ratio to more unmarried women in the Church.

Plus (assuming it was around the same time period) there had to be enough women around to justify Brigham Young and others complaining the young men needed to get off their duffs and get on with the mariage work.

Wish Daynes had posted her talk on FairMormon, instead of needing the book for the stats.

[Calm]

It would have worked better had the Saints been left alone to enjoy their constitutional rights of freedom of religion....

That was the proximate cause of the cessation, but I maintain it could not have continued permanently because it was not sustainable. And it had accomplished its purpose..

The rate of the practice had been dropping significantly the later years of practice, it might have died out sooner save for the practice among a few (possibly enough to balance out the tendency in the American and most European cultures of women being more committed to religious practices than men). Iirc there was actually some resurgence due to resistance of the government telling the Church to shut it down ending up prolonging the decrease of he practice rather than pushing its demise.

I can't remember if this data is from Daynes or not, but I think it is from the work of another female historian who researches the topic.

 

 

 

[Closed at request of thread originator]