Polygamy' Effect On Population

[Scott Lloyd]

I see nothing inherently wrong with men that would automatically preclude them all from practicing polygamy. Yes the Church practiced a limited form of polygamy. Never said otherwise. The sticking point is that more men are born than women. So there is an ever decreasing amount of females relative to males for reproduction.

Which is why plural marriage could not have continued on indefinitely in the Church.

 

I maintain that it lasted as long as it needed to to form a critical mass of faithful Mormon households that fortified the Church and prepared it to take the gospel to the world.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

To which, I roll my eyes! As has been pointed out, census figures do not support the legend of more women in Utah than men.

Never said it did. You are sidestepping the point I am making.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Don't see anyone arguing for that. (more women than men)

Edited March 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

Never said it did. That's you are sidestepping the point I am making.

Which, has no logic to it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Which, has no logic to it.

Why not?

[Calm]

Saemo,

Which family is more likely to have children that remain faithful to their mother's faith...a child born in a family where the father is as strong in that faith as the mother or a family where the father isn't all that committed or is even a nonbeliever?

[saemo]

Why not?

 

If you have, 5 women married to 5 men, and each woman has 10 children, you have 50 children. If you have 5 women married to one man, and each woman has 10 children, you have 50 children.

 

Your argument either presupposes that there were more women in Utah than men, which is not factual. Or, that among the normal population ratio of men to women, the men were a bunch of unrighteous louts, which, I have never seen evidence provided for this assertion.

[saemo]

Saemo,

Which family is more likely to have children that remain faithful to their mother's faith...a child born in a family where the father is as strong in that faith as the mother or a family where the father isn't all that committed or is even a nonbeliever?

 

I have not seen a study that provides the answer. However, I concede that Mormonism makes it harder for a woman to be the "beacon of faith" if she does not have a male to ensure her status within the community. Which, can effect the individual woman, and the family as a whole.

Edited March 5, 2014 by saemo

[Scott Lloyd]

If you have, 5 women married to 5 men, and each woman has 10 children, you have 50 children. If you have 5 women married to one man, and each woman has 10 children, you have 50 children.

 

Your argument either presupposes that there were more women in Utah than men, which is not factual. Or, that among the normal population ratio of men to women, the men were a bunch of unrighteous louts, which, I have never seen evidence provided for this assertion.

You are still altogether missing my point.

 

The intent was not to increase the general population of the territory. It would have done the Church no good to have more non-members or non-committed members of the Church.

 

The intent was to have more households where both parents were faithful so that the children from those marriages would be more apt to be faithful in the Church themselves.

 

Cal and I have both tried to explain this to you. I don't know why you insist on reverting back to opposing what we have not argued.

[saemo]

You are still altogether missing my point.

 

The intent was not to increase the general population of the territory. It would have done the Church no good to have more non-members or non-committed members of the Church.

 

The intent was to have more households where both parents were faithful so that the children from those marriages would be more apt to be faithful in the Church themselves.

 

Cal and I have both tried to explain this to you. I don't know why you insist on reverting back to opposing what we have not argued.

"Or, that among the normal population ratio of men to women, the men were a bunch of unrighteous louts, which, I have never seen evidence provided for this assertion."

[Scott Lloyd]

I have not seen a study that provides the answer. However, I concede that Mormonism makes it harder for a woman to be the "beacon of faith" if she does not have a male to ensure her status within the community. Which, can effect the individual woman, and the family as a whole.

Which is the whole crux of my argument and which you have steadfastly ignored.

[Scott Lloyd]

"Or, that among the normal population ratio of men to women, the men were a bunch of unrighteous louts, which, I have never seen evidence provided for this assertion."

Have you considered who comprised "the normal population" in Utah Territory in the latter 1800s? Many of the men would have been U.S. Army soldiers, miners, railroad workers, federal employees, etc., who were not Mormons and who had no interest in ever converting.

[saemo]

Which is the whole crux of my argument and which you have steadfastly ignored.

No, I have not, it is you who ignore my statement that I have not seen evidence provided (facts) that support an assertion that the men in the Utah territory were unrighteous at a level above (or is it below) that of the women. 

 

Still waiting.

Edited March 5, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

Have you considered who comprised "the normal population" in Utah Territory in the latter 1800s? Many of the men would have been U.S. Army soldiers, miners, railroad workers, federal employees, etc., who were not Mormons and who had no interest in ever converting.

Still waiting for facts, not assumptions.

[Scott Lloyd]

Still waiting for facts, not assumptions.

Do you deny that the population in Utah Territory was largely U.S. Army soliders, government employees, railroad workers, miners, etc. who had no interest in Mormonism?

[Calm]

I have not seen a study that provides the answer.

There are studies that show mixed faith marriages will result in less religious children.

[Calm]

"Or, that among the normal population ratio of men to women, the men were a bunch of unrighteous louts, which, I have never seen evidence provided for this assertion."

The census would have included the large numbers of nonmember miners and soldiers who were there without wives.

http://www.miningutah.com/id66.html

The census included soldiers.

Edited March 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

Do you deny that the population in Utah Territory was largely U.S. Army soliders, government employees, railroad workers, miners, etc. who had no interest in Mormonism?

 

FACTS Scott Lloyd. Not speculation.

 

Having an interest in the Catholic history of Utah, miners (who were largely Catholic) arrived as individuals and with their families. Did government employees come alone, or bring their families?

 

What was the population of railroad workers?

 

What was the population of the Army, and were they counted in the census (I don't know).

 

What was the population of male Mormons?

[Scott Lloyd]

FACTS Scott Lloyd. Not speculation.

 

Having an interest in the Catholic history of Utah, miners (who were largely Catholic) arrived as individuals and with their families. Did government employees come alone, or bring their families?

 

What was the population of railroad workers?

 

What was the population of the Army, and were they counted in the census (I don't know).

 

What was the population of male Mormons?

See calmoriah's post.

 

My point all along has been that raw census figures in Utah are not useful in this discussion, because it was not raw population growth (Mormons and non-Mormons blended together) that the Mormons were after.

 

You continue to miss the point.

[thesometimesaint]

For plural marriage, right? Not just marriage....studies after show a higher rate of men married in Utah at the time in comparison with other parts of the US.

There was a steady stream of immigrants into the Utah territory. Thus increasing the pool of women. Stop the increase in women and polygamy becomes untenable. The FLDS are now experiencing the effects of polygamy's intended consequences with the forced leaving of its men, and women.

[thesometimesaint]

Which is why plural marriage could not have continued on indefinitely in the Church.

 

I maintain that it lasted as long as it needed to to form a critical mass of faithful Mormon households that fortified the Church and prepared it to take the gospel to the world.

 

Agreed.

[Calm]

Are you suggesting that Utah was an anomaly at the time and it was typical for miners rushing to boomtowns and soldiers deployed to the territories to be both married and bring out their families (undoubtedly true for some, but most?)

[saemo]

See calmoriah's post.

 

My point all along has been that raw census figures in Utah are not useful in this discussion, because it was not raw population growth (Mormons and non-Mormons blended together) that the Mormons were after.

 

You continue to miss the point.

My point is, speculation is not useful to the discussion. I like facts, and perhaps it would be a fun exercise to search them out for myself.

 

But, you do make polygamy sound like an evolutionary mechanism for a male to create more progeny than other males. Competition for females, and all that. A breeding program?

[Scott Lloyd]

There was a steady stream of immigrants into the Utah territory. Thus increasing the pool of women. Stop the increase in women and polygamy becomes untenable. The FLDS are now experiencing the effects of polygamy's intended consequences with the forced leaving of its men, and women.

Right. Which is why polygamy could not have continued forever in the Church. But it lasted long enough to fortify the Church.

 

Did you see my prior post on this?

 

Edited to add:

 

Never mind. I see we are in agreement.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

My point is, speculation is not useful to the discussion. I like facts, and perhaps it would be a fun exercise to search them out for myself.

You are speculating when you assume that raw population growth in Utah Territory was the intent of plural marriage. Or when you insinuate that most non-Mormon men in Utah Territory arrived with their wives.

 

 

But, you do make polygamy sound like an evolutionary mechanism for a male to create more progeny than other males. Competition for females, and all that. A breeding program?

 

I won't dignify this with a response other than to say it is a gross, hostile and cynical distortion of my words.

 

Edited to add:

 

Ascribing unintended meaning to a person's words is the worst kind of speculation.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Scott Lloyd