Great Apostasy?

[savedbygrace]

I am reading a book called Evangelical Catholicism by George Weigel, in it he makes these observations:

(I am sorry, this is long so I beg your patience)

 

Christianity is Christ, and thus it is Christ, not some abstract cluster of "Christian" ideas, who shaped the culture of the West for centuries. It was Christ, working through the people of the Church who are his Body, who converted the classical world and who saved the world's intellectual and cultural heritage through the Christian micro cultures of Benedictine monasticism. It was Christ, through the Church, who shaped the Christendom of the Middle Ages, where the foundation of modern science and democracy were laid. It was Christ in his Church who brought Europe - its peoples and their cultures - to the Western Hemisphere, shaping the New World's social, cultural and political life for over five centuries. It was Christ whom Jacobin politics, in a line from Robespierre to Stalin, sought to drive out of the future of the West by brutal suppression of the Church. It is Christ whom the twenty-first century Christophobes fear. 

And if the West is to recover from the crisis of civilisational morale in which it has been immolating itself in the last decades of the twentieth century and the first decades if the twenty first, it is Christ, through Evangelical Catholicism, who will help  humanize the earthly city through the agency of the City of God, present in an anticipatory way in the counter culture that is the Church.

 

Previously Weigel stated, referring to the period following the Second Vatican Council till now

 

Yet in less than a decade after the Council, the high culture of the West took a sharp turn towards aggressive and hegemonic secularism that, in the twenty-first century, manifests itself as Christophobia: a deep hostility to Gospel truth (especially moral truth) and a determination to drive Christians who affirm those truths out of the public square and into a privatized  existence on the margins of society....

When the ambient public culture is dominated by nihilsm, and relativism and conscripts public authority to impose that nihilism and relativism on others through the coercive use of state power, the Church faces a challenge that is somewhat similar, at least structurally, to the challenge it faced in the communist lands during the Cold War years. Ps 82 and 83

 

Back to me, please don't think that the reference to Evangelical Catholicism being the solution to the present situation is intended to be provocative, it's just that it was the end of that section.

My question is, in view of the description of our Christophobic society and the difficult challenges it presents to Christianity today, could it be that we are living through the great apostasy predicted in Sacred Scripture now in the present time, rather than at a much earlier time in history?

 

www.facebook/ grimsby catholic

Edited February 7, 2014 by savedbygrace

[JLHPROF]

My question is, in view of the description of our Christophobic society and the difficult challenges it presents to Christianity today, could it be that we are living through the great apostasy predicted in Sacred Scripture now in the present time, rather than at a much earlier time in history?

 

 

Interesting concept.  In Mormonism we do harp on the "Great Apostasy" but since we also believe in 7 grand dispensations we know that there have been numerous apostasies necessitating restorations.

While I don't think we are in a great apostasy now, and we believe this to be the last dispensation, it is suprising how many things we are "waiting for the Millennium" to be restored yet again (consecration for instance).  Perhaps we have a "little apostasy" today instead of a Great Apostasy since there are so many eternal principles we are waiting for a kind of restoration on.

[Vance]

My question is, . . . could it be that we are living through the great apostasy predicted in Sacred Scripture now in the present time, rather than at a much earlier time in history?

It is a false choice. The great apostasy started with the death of the Apostles and continues to exist. It took a major blow with the restoration through the Prophet Joseph Smith, but it will continue until Christ reigns personally upon the Earth. Only then will it come to a complete end.

[3DOP]

Hi saved by grace,

 

I share many of George Weigel's views but probably oppose others that would be mentioned in the book, but I have not read this work. If memory serves correctly, aside from articles, I have only read his biography of Pope John Paul II. 

 

As for the way LDS need to perceive the Great Apostasy, Vance seems correct. It certainly needed to have appeared before Joseph Smith's time. What was the Restoration, if there was no apostasy yet?

 

But I would be interested in any alternatives you would suggest to members of the various churches if one were persuaded that the Great Apostasy, as spoken of in Scripture, is only now occurring. (It is a view to which I am amenable). Prior to the appearance of this modern Apostasy, where should one look historically to find the fullest expression of Christ and His truth? Thank you for your provocative (in a positive way) post and I will be looking forward to your thoughts. Please include Mr. Weigle's views if they seem pertinent to your answer.

 

Thanks,

 

3DOP

[cinepro]

In Mormonism we do harp on the "Great Apostasy" but since we also believe in 7 grand dispensations we know that there have been numerous apostasies necessitating restorations.

 

 

No we don't.  There have been more than 7 dispensations, and they were all grand for the people living in that time and place.

[savedbygrace]

Interesting concept.  In Mormonism we do harp on the "Great Apostasy" but since we also believe in 7 grand dispensations we know that there have been numerous apostasies necessitating restorations.

While I don't think we are in a great apostasy now, and we believe this to be the last dispensation, it is suprising how many things we are "waiting for the Millennium" to be restored yet again (consecration for instance).  Perhaps we have a "little apostasy" today instead of a Great Apostasy since there are so many eternal principles we are waiting for a kind of restoration on.

Please could you clarify  numerous apostasies necessitating ? many restorations. I don't quite understand why establishment of eternal principles has to be preceded by apostasy, or maybe I have completely misunderstood you.

[urroner]

Here is a link to a chapter in a book published by the Maxwell Institute, "Early Christians in Disarray," which I found very helpful in explaining the Great Apostasy.  I know that 3DOP will disagree with it, but I love and respect him a whole bunch.  If I'm wrong, I really hope he try to convince St. Peter that I belong on the right side of the Pearly Gates.  If, he's wrong, I do what ever I can do to convince St. Moroni to let him through.  If we're both wrong, I hope he'll join me in my commiseration outside of the gate.  Maybe the two of us can irritate whomever the keeper of the gate is, that we'd just be let in to be quiet.

 

Introduction: What Went Wrong for the Early Christians?

 

It talks about five myths of the Apostasy.

[savedbygrace]

It is a false choice. The great apostasy started with the death of the Apostles and continues to exist. It took a major blow with the restoration through the Prophet Joseph Smith, but it will continue until Christ reigns personally upon the Earth. Only then will it come to a complete end.

I agree that turning away from the gospel as Christ and the Apostles taught it has been on going. The best example I suppose is people leaving Christ after his discourse on being the bread that has to be consumed by believers. I also realise that LDS have to believe in the great apostasy in order to promote the need for a restoration through Joseph Smith. It is well documented in scripture that there would be a falling away, but the great falling away, I don't believe has happened or been completed yet. I think the insidious modern views of religion especially Christianity is leading to the fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy, and the day has indeed come when what is right is seen as wrong and what is wrong is seen or promoted as right. The politically correct society that we live in does not allow us to speak Biblical truth without being called bigot, or homophobe, or some other such insult. People no longer in large part  affiliate themselves with any religion let alone Christianity, western countries are no longer intrinsically Christian, the pressure from society to consign Christianity to the dark ages I don't think has ever been greater. Humanism has ousted God from for example schools where Christian values were once taught. I could go on, but suffice it to say that today's societal values are about if it feels good do it, totally self orientated rather than God orientated, and I am sure that if l religion could be banned by our laws, then it would be.And I fear it will get worse.

[Palerider]

I agree that turning away from the gospel as Christ and the Apostles taught it has been on going. The best example I suppose is people leaving Christ after his discourse on being the bread that has to be consumed by believers. I also realise that LDS have to believe in the great apostasy in order to promote the need for a restoration through Joseph Smith. It is well documented in scripture that there would be a falling away, but the great falling away, I don't believe has happened or been completed yet. I think the insidious modern views of religion especially Christianity is leading to the fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy, and the day has indeed come when what is right is seen as wrong and what is wrong is seen or promoted as right. The politically correct society that we live in does not allow us to speak Biblical truth without being called bigot, or homophobe, or some other such insult. People no longer in large part  affiliate themselves with any religion let alone Christianity, western countries are no longer intrinsically Christian, the pressure from society to consign Christianity to the dark ages I don't think has ever been greater. Humanism has ousted God from for example schools where Christian values were once taught. I could go on, but suffice it to say that today's societal values are about if it feels good do it, totally self orientated rather than God orientated, and I am sure that if l religion could be banned by our laws, then it would be.And I fear it will get worse.

 

I think you are correct in a lot of your thinking. I think there was an apostacy, beginning even before the original Apostles were killed, and that apostacy has continued without a restoration as characterized by the LDS faith. 

 

There is a restoration of Israel ahead but I believe it will begin with the 2nd coming of Christ. None of the Biblical "restoration" scriptures that I have read necessitate a restoration before then.

 

I'd recommend a careful reading of Matt. 13:24-43 which even prohibits an attempt at restoration before the angels are sent to carry out the final cleanup. 

[JLHPROF]

No we don't.  There have been more than 7 dispensations, and they were all grand for the people living in that time and place.

 

Oh come on.  That link still specifically lists the traditional 7 major "grand" dispensations (when the fullness of priesthood and ordinances were restored to an earth which was in a condition without any authority).  A grand dispensation represents the restoration of the priesthood in a functional manner to the earth when it was previously unavailable.  Other "dispensations" in that link don't necessarily feature this occurrence.  A grand dispensation is a restoration to the earth, not simply distribution of priesthood.

For that reason, the "Nephite Dispensation" is not a grand dispensation since the keys of the priesthood were already on the earth with the 12 Apostles in Jerusalem, and Peter presided over all other priesthood on the earth at that time, including those Apostles in America.

[JLHPROF]

Please could you clarify  numerous apostasies necessitating ? many restorations. I don't quite understand why establishment of eternal principles has to be preceded by apostasy, or maybe I have completely misunderstood you.

 

It's simple really.  Adam and his descendants had the fulness of priesthood and ordinances.  At some point they were lost due to apostasy (which could be wickedness, changing of ordinances, failure to pass down the priesthood keys, whatever).  God had to restore these things again.  It's happened throughout history.  As I said in my other post, there is a difference between a Grand Dispensation or Restoration when there was no authority on the earth and it had to be brought back and a situation where priesthood authority was already on the earth and it was dispensed to a new group of people.  There have been 7 Grand Dispensations or Restorations.

For example:

 

Abraham (head of the 4th Dispensation) had the fulness of priesthood and all the ordinances.  This authority was passed down through the patriarchs Isaac & Jacob (and presumably Joseph and Ephraim) but by the time of Moses the Children of Israel had lost all authority and ordinances.

Moses (head of the 5th Dispensation) had the fulness of priesthood restored to him on Mt. Sinai and all the ordinances.  A few years in the promised land and by the time of Christ all that was left was the Levitical (Aaronic) Priesthood and John The Baptist performing the most primary of ordinances.

Christ (head of the 6th Dispensation) restored all the priesthood keys and ordinances to the earth on the Mt of Transfiguration and during the 40 day ministry and, well we know what happened there to get us to the 7th and last Dispensation.

[savedbygrace]

Hi saved by grace,

 

I share many of George Weigel's views but probably oppose others that would be mentioned in the book, but I have not read this work. If memory serves correctly, aside from articles, I have only read his biography of Pope John Paul II. 

 

As for the way LDS need to perceive the Great Apostasy, Vance seems correct. It certainly needed to have appeared before Joseph Smith's time. What was the Restoration, if there was no apostasy yet?

 

But I would be interested in any alternatives you would suggest to members of the various churches if one were persuaded that the Great Apostasy, as spoken of in Scripture, is only now occurring. (It is a view to which I am amenable). Prior to the appearance of this modern Apostasy, where should one look historically to find the fullest expression of Christ and His truth? Thank you for your provocative (in a positive way) post and I will be looking forward to your thoughts. Please include Mr. Weigle's views if they seem pertinent to your answer.

 

Thanks,

 

3DOP

Where to start? For me as a Catholic the fullest expression of Christ and his truth is found in the Catholic church and the deposit of faith found therein. However many especially on these boards and elsewhere will obviously disagree. However, Biblical truth is there for us all, and I guess that is what Christians should be upholding and defending, however much it means swimming against the modern secular tide. Christ admonished us all not to hide our light even in the face of animosity and hatred, so at the risk of incurring even more Christians should promote biblical truth, not allow it to be watered down.

[Coreyb]

It's simple really.  Adam and his descendants had the fulness of priesthood and ordinances.  At some point they were lost due to apostasy (which could be wickedness, changing of ordinances, failure to pass down the priesthood keys, whatever).  God had to restore these things again.  It's happened throughout history.  As I said in my other post, there is a difference between a Grand Dispensation or Restoration when there was no authority on the earth and it had to be brought back and a situation where priesthood authority was already on the earth and it was dispensed to a new group of people.  There have been 7 Grand Dispensations or Restorations.

For example:

 

Abraham (head of the 4th Dispensation) had the fulness of priesthood and all the ordinances.  This authority was passed down through the patriarchs Isaac & Jacob (and presumably Joseph and Ephraim) but by the time of Moses the Children of Israel had lost all authority and ordinances.

Moses (head of the 5th Dispensation) had the fulness of priesthood restored to him on Mt. Sinai and all the ordinances.  A few years in the promised land and by the time of Christ all that was left was the Levitical (Aaronic) Priesthood and John The Baptist performing the most primary of ordinances.

Christ (head of the 6th Dispensation) restored all the priesthood keys and ordinances to the earth on the Mt of Transfiguration and during the 40 day ministry and, well we know what happened there to get us to the 7th and last Dispensation.

The problem with this idea is that in our scriptures, D&C sections 107 and 84 especially, no priesthood keys seem to have been lost from the time of Adam until Moses.

 

 6 ^aAnd the ^bsons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the ^chand of his father-in-law, ^dJethro;

 7 And Jethro received it under the hand of Caleb;

 8 And Caleb received it under the hand of Elihu;

 9 And Elihu under the hand of Jeremy;

 10 And Jeremy under the hand of Gad;

 11 And Gad under the hand of Esaias;

 12 And Esaias received it under the hand of God.

 13 ^aEsaias also lived in the days of Abraham, and was blessed of him—

 14 Which ^aAbraham received the priesthood from ^bMelchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till ^cNoah;

 15 And from Noah till ^aEnoch, through the lineage of their fathers;

 16 And from Enoch to ^aAbel, who was slain by the ^bconspiracy of his brother, who ^creceived the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father ^dAdam, who was the first man—

 17 Which ^apriesthood ^bcontinueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without ^cbeginning of days or end of years.

[Stone holm]

Interesting concept.  In Mormonism we do harp on the "Great Apostasy" but since we also believe in 7 grand dispensations we know that there have been numerous apostasies necessitating restorations.

While I don't think we are in a great apostasy now, and we believe this to be the last dispensation, it is suprising how many things we are "waiting for the Millennium" to be restored yet again (consecration for instance).  Perhaps we have a "little apostasy" today instead of a Great Apostasy since there are so many eternal principles we are waiting for a kind of restoration on.

I refer to it as the Millenium syndrome, anything that would be awkward economically or politically we defer to the Millenium, unless deferring it also becomes too awkward like lifting the Priesthood ban.

[Damien the Leper]

Shhh! It's a conspiracy to delegitimize the first century church.