Brigham Young?

[Stone holm]

No I'm not a member of the CofC, or Restoration Branches, or Remnant Church or any other RLDS offspring.

I am LDS and have been for 40 years (convert at 14).

The truth is there is a lot of evidence of Joseph's polygamy, but it isn't very impressive evidence. Most of it is in the form of journal entries written many years after the fact. Contemporary evidence is very thin on the ground. Very thin indeed.

Price did a fairly good job as a summeriser, though the work he did on Volume II (which is available online) is better. Incidently, Price died on new year's day.

 

As I said before, I base my position regarding this issue firmly on Joseph's integrity. Despite what others have said about him (for whatever reason), he himself said he wasn't involved. I believe he is a truthful man. Therefore I believe him over everyone else. After all, Joseph Smith is the world's leading authority on the life of Joseph Smith. If I took the position that he was lying, then his testimony regarding anything and everything is brought into question.

The idea that he was lying because he didn't want his enemies to know he was a polygamist doesn't hold water because they already believed he was anyway. The idea he was trying to keep it from the church is equally flawed because, according to most commentators (including many who have participated in this thread) it was an open secret amongst the membership. Therefore his vehement public denial makes absolutely no sense................. unless it was a statement of truth.

 

Your last statement regarding brother Brigham gets to the crux of the reason I started this thread in the first place. Did the church go astray under BY? Please note, "astray" does not equal apostate. My point is that almost every doctrine with which Brigham is closely associated has been abandoned or repudiated by the church in modern times. Adam-God and the Priesthood ban being two very obvious examples, but there are more (blood atonement, polygamy, adoption etc). So yes, perhaps it did go astray at that time and, like the proverbial oil tanker, it has and is taking a long time to turn around and correct it's course.

This business of constantly throwing Brigham under the bus is just annoying. Yes, he may have instituted the Priesthood ban, but there were plenty of Prophets between him and Spencer W. Kimball, so unless you want to believe that all those Prophets were not being directed by The Lord, I believe The Lord had a hand in it. We have renounced the racist comments, but not the policy while it was in effect. Joseph taught Poligamy, and although the Church has suspended its mortal practice, it has never renounced it when The Lord directs its practice. So no I do not think Brigham led the Church astray, the Adam God Theory, to the extent that we understand it, was no more off base than some of the drivel about the short Creation peddled by Joseph Fielding Smith and his son in law.

[JLHPROF]

This business of constantly throwing Brigham under the bus is just annoying. Yes, he may have instituted the Priesthood ban, but there were plenty of Prophets between him and Spencer W. Kimball, so unless you want to believe that all those Prophets were not being directed by The Lord, I believe The Lord had a hand in it. We have renounced the racist comments, but not the policy while it was in effect. Joseph taught Poligamy, and although the Church has suspended its mortal practice, it has never renounced it when The Lord directs its practice. So no I do not think Brigham led the Church astray, the Adam God Theory, to the extent that we understand it, was no more off base than some of the drivel about the short Creation peddled by Joseph Fielding Smith and his son in law.

 

Amen!  I think the way Brigham gets spoken of violates the "speaking ill of the Lord's anointed" promise.

We don't have to agree with everything, but he did NOT lead the Church astray.  He was God's prophet and Joseph Smith's rightful successor.  Sure he made mistakes, but so do all humans.  I mean, we shouldn't assume that everything current leaders are teaching is correct either...

Edited February 13, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Alan]

  He was God's prophet and Joseph Smith's rightful successor. 

 

Interesting comment, given that Brigham himself wouldn't agree with you.

He said he never claimed to be a prophet (only a steady hand), nor Joseph's successor. He and most people knew that Joseph Smith III was the rightful successor, which is probably why he claimed only to be a steady hand. For a long time he held out the hope that JSIII would one day take his rightful place. He never did.

[Alan]

 was no more off base than some of the drivel about the short Creation peddled by Joseph Fielding Smith and his son in law.

 

.........and the Holy Bible of course.

[Alan]

  I think the way Brigham gets spoken of violates the "speaking ill of the Lord's anointed" promise.

 

 

But saying that Joseph Smith was a liar and a deceiver is ok is it?

[Anteojito]

Interesting comment, given that Brigham himself wouldn't agree with you.

He said he never claimed to be a prophet (only a steady hand), nor Joseph's successor. He and most people knew that Joseph Smith III was the rightful successor, which is probably why he claimed only to be a steady hand. For a long time he held out the hope that JSIII would one day take his rightful place. He never did.

 

For a long time he held out the hope that JSIII would one day take his rightful place. He never did. - CFR

[JLHPROF]

Interesting comment, given that Brigham himself wouldn't agree with you.

He said he never claimed to be a prophet (only a steady hand), nor Joseph's successor. He and most people knew that Joseph Smith III was the rightful successor, which is probably why he claimed only to be a steady hand. For a long time he held out the hope that JSIII would one day take his rightful place. He never did.

 

I'll add my CFR to Anteojito's.  Brigham didn't like the label of "prophet" but he was still a prophet.  And Joseph Smith III was never a viable option and Joseph Smith new it.  That's why the priesthood keys weren't given to him before Joseph died but were given to the 12 instead.

 

But saying that Joseph Smith was a liar and a deceiver is ok is it?

 

Oh, bullpucky.  Nobody is saying that.  If Joseph Smith lied publicly about his polygamy to escape persecution I am completely ok with it.  But he wasn't setting out to be conspiratorial, deceive his followers, or satisfy secret evil lusts.  He had multiple wives.  Society couldn't accept it.  He pretended he didn't.  Don't make it sound like we're labeling him with a sinister motive.

[Avatar4321]

But saying that Joseph Smith was a liar and a deceiver is ok is it?

 

Has anyone suggested that Alan?

[Stone holm]

But saying that Joseph Smith was a liar and a deceiver is ok is it?

Whoa, where did that come from?

[Alan]

I'll add my CFR to Anteojito's.  Brigham didn't like the label of "prophet" but he was still a prophet.  And Joseph Smith III was never a viable option and Joseph Smith new it.  That's why the priesthood keys weren't given to him before Joseph died but were given to the 12 instead.

 

 

Sorry, I assumed those participating in this thread knew something of this period of church history.

It appears JSIII was designated repeatedly by his father. At least three, possibly four times. JSIII himself had a memory of two of them. That is why Rigdon suggested he should be the "guardian" of the church for Joseph - meaning young Joseph.

 

I can't access any references right now as I'm at work and waiting to go into a meeting. However, it isn't difficult to find this information. Later Brigham modified his thoughts regarding JSIII (by that time JSIII was president of the RLDS Church) but stated he thought David had promise and could take on the mantle of his father.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Alan

[Alan]

Whoa, where did that come from?

 

Read the thread and you'll see.

Apparently it's "speaking ill of the Lord's annointed" to criticise Brigham, but it's ok to identify Joseph as a liar and deceiver. That, apparently isn't speaking ill of the Lord's annointed. Even though, of course, 2 Nephi 9:34 clearly states "Wo unto the liar for he shall be thrust down to hell".

Edited February 14, 2014 by Alan

[Alan]

Has anyone suggested that Alan?

 

By implication, yes of course.

[ALarson]

By implication, yes of course.

It's been more than implicated and I think it's been covered.  Joseph Smith did have to conceal his polygamy from the vast majority of the early saints.  Did he make public statements that were not the truth?  Yes.  Let's be honest here that he did.  But, there were reasons he had to do this and others on here have already explained this.

 

But Alan, instead of accepting this, you choose to believe that dozens of members told lies about their beloved Prophet, Joseph Smith.  You even blame it mainly on Brigham Young.  Do you know what a horrible person he would have to be to do what you are accusing him of doing?  

 

Say what you want about Brigham Young, but he loved Joseph Smith dearly.  Joseph was his Prophet  You really believe he would betray Joseph like that?  Do you really believe he'd force others to lie and order all records and journals to be altered just to make himself look good?  That's a huge accusation and just plain crazy IMO.

[Alan]

It's been more than implicated and I think it's been covered.  Joseph Smith did have to conceal his polygamy from the vast majority of the early saints.  Did he make public statements that were not the truth?  Yes.  Let's be honest here that he did.  But, there were reasons he had to do this and others on here have already explained this.

 

But Alan, instead of accepting this, you choose to believe that dozens of members told lies about their beloved Prophet, Joseph Smith.  You even blame it mainly on Brigham Young.  Do you know what a horrible person he would have to be to do what you are accusing him of doing?  

 

Say what you want about Brigham Young, but he loved Joseph Smith dearly.  Joseph was his Prophet  You really believe he would betray Joseph like that?  Do you really believe he'd force others to lie and order all records and journals to be altered just to make himself look good?  That's a huge accusation and just plain crazy IMO.

 

They told lies about him because they didn't know the real truth. They knew he was sealed to a number of women and just put two and two together. Especially as sealing and marriage became one and the same thing in Utah. Remember most of the accounts were written in Utah many years later and were written through later 19th century lenses. It must have been quite a thing when living in Utah at that time to have been able claim you were married to Joseph (when in reality one was just sealed to him).

 

Joseph did not have to conceal polygamy from anyone. He was not afraid of enemies from without or within. I'm sorry, this just does not make sense. He didn't just deny he was involved, he said he had never been involved, that this accusation had followed him for 14 years or more and it was false. Not only that, but he would happily take his accusers to court and prove them all liars. This is more than a simple denial.

He even initiated legal proceedings againt the Higbee's, a suicidal thing to do if you really were guilty.

 

As for Brigham loving Joseph, I couldn't possibly comment. But one thing I am absolutely convinced of is that Joseph was not married (in the full sense of the word) to anyone but Emma.

 

I think it a strange thing that the prophet of the restoration, the best blood of the 19th century, is accused of lying because his testimony differs from that of Brigham Young and his followers. Frankly, it's a scandal.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Alan

[JLHPROF]

 It must have been quite a thing when living in Utah at that time to have been able claim you were married to Joseph (when in reality one was just sealed to him).

 

As for Brigham loving Joseph, I couldn't possibly comment. But one thing I am absolutely convinced of is that Joseph was not married (in the full sense of the word) to anyone but Emma.

 

Alan, we've been through this.  There are only 2 kinds of sealings and both are for time and eternity - husband/wife and parent/child.  If Joseph was "sealed" to these women he was either taking them as wives or as daughters.  There is no other option, and I would CFR that there is any other kind of sealing ceremony that would give them a different status.

[ALarson]

They told lies about him because they didn't know the real truth. They knew he was sealed to a number of women and just put two and two together

Oh come on.  You know better than that if you've read the affidavits.  These were Joseph's wives.  They testified to what they lived.  Of course they knew the real truth. 

 

Maybe you need to go read them again?

[ALarson]

Joseph did not have to conceal polygamy from anyone. 

But, he did.  He obviously felt it was the right thing to do and that it was necessary at that time.

 

It simply comes down to accepting this or believing that many early saints (including the next few Prophets) told blatant lies about Joseph Smith and that some of them even swore to these lies under oath.  Not to mention all the documents and journals that would have had to have been altered.  If that makes more sense to you to accept and believe, then that's your choice. 

[Anteojito]

Sorry, I assumed those participating in this thread knew something of this period of church history.

 

Wow, do you say snarking comments to people when you are in Sunday School and they ask a simple question? Still waiting for that reference BTW

[Coreyb]

But saying that Joseph Smith was a liar and a deceiver is ok is it?

Wow, so If I could find one other instance where Joseph was dishonest, would that change your mind on polygamy?

[Gray]

I wonder which of us on this forum has never lied?

[Anteojito]

I wonder which of us on this forum has never lied?

I wonder which of us on this forum has ever claimed to be a Prophet of God? Granted they are not infallible, but they can and should be held to a higher standard than your rank and file member. 

[Stone holm]

I wonder which of us on this forum has ever claimed to be a Prophet of God? Granted they are not infallible, but they can and should be held to a higher standard than your rank and file member.

I believe they are by God, if anybody has the capacity to become a son of perdition, it most assuredly be a prophet.

[Alan]

 

 

It simply comes down to accepting this or believing that many early saints (including the next few Prophets) told blatant lies about Joseph Smith and that some of them even swore to these lies under oath.  

 

CFR

Edited February 15, 2014 by Alan

[JLHPROF]

Deleted.

Edited February 15, 2014 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

CFR

 

Alan,  you are the one who is claiming that early saints and Prophets after Brigham Young lied about Joseph Smith living polygamy.  You are the one who is claiming that records and writings were altered and journals were back written.  You are also the one who has stated that you believe some early saints lied in their sworn affidavits.

 

Not I.  I do not believe that any of the above is true.

 

We have done a CFR for YOU to supply references proving these and so far all you can say is there are none.

Edited February 15, 2014 by ALarson