danielwoods Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 Or, in other words, Christ came to make dead men live as bad men? Does that make sense to you? Are you suggesting that the "regeneration and transformation" is not salvific? If saved men are still bad, then what have they been saved from? Thanks, -Wade Englund- Christ came to make dead men live. Are these men perfect even though they are now alive (saved)? Of course not. So even though your statement distorts mine, yes it is accurate. Regeneration and transformation what happens after one is saved. So, no I wouldn't say that the regeneration and transformation itself is what saves us. Ah. If saved men are still bad, what have they been saved from? The power of sin, death and hell.
danielwoods Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 Though many Latter-day Saints do not know or understand the doctrinal point I'm about to make, it's an important one and it is true: In order to be saved in any of the three kingdoms of glory, an individual must come unto Christ, sincerely repent and receive a remission of their sins. It goes without saying that those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will have come unto Christ, repented of their sins and received forgiveness. But what about those in the lower two kingdoms of glory? Well the truth is that I could cite many verses of scripture to answer that question, but in order to keep this explanation of mine as short as possible I will (at least for now) keep my quotes to a minimum, hoping they'll suffice, I quote the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 76 and the Bible (please take especial note of the words and passages in bold italic): I am glad you kept that short.... ;-) I agree that most of the time the LDS are talking about the various levels of glory they believe in, and EV's are talking about salvation alone. Getting on the same page helps. As far as the many comments directed toward the Non-LDS views of heaven, my only reply is that if I thought the many predictions and descriptions of heaven made by LDS prophets and teachers were trustworthy, I'd be LDS.
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I am glad you kept that short.... ;-) I agree that most of the time the LDS are talking about the various levels of glory they believe in, and EV's are talking about salvation alone. Getting on the same page helps. As far as the many comments directed toward the Non-LDS views of heaven, my only reply is that if I thought the many predictions and descriptions of heaven made by LDS prophets and teachers were trustworthy, I'd be LDS. Well we're even then.
danielwoods Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 Ravi's Recap of his time in Utah: http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravis-recap-from-utah/
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Christ came to make dead men live. Are these men perfect even though they are now alive (saved)? Of course not. So even though your statement distorts mine, yes it is accurate. Regeneration and transformation what happens after one is saved. So, no I wouldn't say that the regeneration and transformation itself is what saves us. Ah. If saved men are still bad, what have they been saved from? The power of sin, death and hell.Your take on the gospel will forever land on mostly deaf ears on this board because the Bible is loaded with so many passages like the following:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being bled away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3) From this and so many other Bible passages, it's perfectly obvious the Lord's inspired servants in the Bible taught it was of utmost importance for the saints to magnify their callings and earnestly strive for perfection through faith in Christ, that the fullness of God's eternal rewards might be theirs. God has offered much besides basic salvation and He expects His earthly children to take advantage of those divine opportunities, earnestly striving to progress in spiritual growth. As far as I'm concerned, there's no other way to interpret the above words of Peter than that dynamic spiritual growth is expected of us. What kind of wise father would expect otherwise from his offspring? The Father has commanded us to overcome sin, flesh and the devil. The way to ultimately succeed in that noble pursuit is to heed the above counsel of Peter. Sitting back and thinking to oneself "I've got it made" is as childish as it is erroneous. As Paul said:12 Not as though I had already attained, neither were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3) The verdict is in. The Lord expects us to earnestly strive for perfection through faith in His Son. The Latter-day Saints are focused on the fullness of eternal reward and, like Paul, we don't go around telling people we already have done all that Heavenly Father earnestly expects of us. Edited January 22, 2014 by teddyaware 1
danielwoods Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 Your take on the gospel will forever land on mostly deaf ears on this board because the Bible is loaded with so many passages like the following:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being bled away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3) From this and so many other Bible passages, it's perfectly obvious the Lord's inspired servants in the Bible taught it was of utmost importance for the saints to magnify their callings and earnestly strive for perfection through faith in Christ, that the fullness of God's eternal rewards might be theirs. God has offered much besides basic salvation and He expects His earthly children to take advantage of those divine opportunities, earnestly striving to progress in spiritual growth. As far as I'm concerned, there's no other way to interpret the above words of Peter than that dynamic spiritual growth is expected of us. What kind of wise father would expect otherwise from his offspring? The Father has commanded us to overcome sin, flesh and the devil. The way to ultimately succeed in that noble pursuit is to heed the above counsel of Peter. Sitting back and thinking to oneself "I've got it made" is as childish as it is erroneous. As Paul said:12 Not as though I had already attained, neither were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3) The verdict is in. The Lord expects us to earnestly strive for perfection through faith in His Son. The Latter-day Saints are focused on the fullness of eternal reward and, like Paul, we don't go around telling people we already have done all that Heavenly Father earnestly expects of us. First, I haven't heard anyone say, "we already have done all that Heavenly Father earnestly expects of us." Second, I understand and agree with you (and Peter) that we grow in our relationship with Christ. I think the point of disagreement is the idea that we are somehow able to achieve perfection by "earnestly striving". Notice this statement, "14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) We are perfected for ever, simply based on Christ's sacrifice. The net effect of this understanding on me and many of my colleges is a huge burden is lifted, that we couldn't carry anyway. Does that mean we claim to "already have done all"? Of course not. What it means is we serve with a heart motivated by gratefulness and love. Not as one would who is counting all his good deeds. As Paul stated, God loves a cheerful giver. Giving because of a feeling of obligation is the opposite of the Gospel message.
mfbukowski Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Since semantics is the study of meaning, perhaps a good working definition of "good works" would help clarify the LDS position.I think the problem is on the EV side. Since when is repenting and accepting Christ NOT a "good work"? Is it a "bad work"?? If it is a good work, we are saved by "good works".
mfbukowski Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I think the point of disagreement is the idea that we are somehow able to achieve perfection by "earnestly striving".I don't know anyone who believes that, and it is certainly not the LDS position. We are ultimately saved by grace- we cannot possibly do it all. I think in reality our positions are virtually identical, but no one wants to truly understand the other's position, we are so steeped in ideology. It is probably hopeless. Even Ravi's last statement was clearly modified by his having to stay on the good side of EV hardliners. In the past, wars were fought over this kind of nonsense. Edited January 22, 2014 by mfbukowski
Gervin Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I think the problem is on the EV side. Since when is repenting and accepting Christ NOT a "good work"? Is it a "bad work"??If it is a good work, we are saved by "good works".Elsewhere on this board, on another thread, there was a discussion about this act of repentance and acceptance as a leap of faith. I'm trying to figure out how you are using the term "good work(s)." Is a good work, by your definition, a leap of faith?
Gervin Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 The verdict is in. The Lord expects us to earnestly strive for perfection through faith in His Son. The Latter-day Saints are focused on the fullness of eternal reward and, like Paul, we don't go around telling people we already have done all that Heavenly Father earnestly expects of us.Show me a New Testament Christian Church (EV, if you'd like) that goes around telling people this. Just one, please.
Calm Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Elsewhere on this board, on another thread, there was a discussion about this act of repentance and acceptance as a leap of faith. I'm trying to figure out how you are using the term "good work(s)." Is a good work, by your definition, a leap of faith?I would define a work as something that requires an effort or creates a change of state. A "good" work would be something done with the intent to help others or to serve God, including bettering oneself as a sign of gratitude for and acceptance of God's blessings and a desire to serve him to the best of one's ability even while recognising that one will always be an unprofitable servant, but also realising as a loving Father, what he wants most is for one to fulfill one's potential.
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) First, I haven't heard anyone say, "we already have done all that Heavenly Father earnestly expects of us." Second, I understand and agree with you (and Peter) that we grow in our relationship with Christ. I think the point of disagreement is the idea that we are somehow able to achieve perfection by "earnestly striving". Notice this statement, "14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) We are perfected for ever, simply based on Christ's sacrifice. The net effect of this understanding on me and many of my colleges is a huge burden is lifted, that we couldn't carry anyway. Does that mean we claim to "already have done all"? Of course not. What it means is we serve with a heart motivated by gratefulness and love. Not as one would who is counting all his good deeds. As Paul stated, God loves a cheerful giver. Giving because of a feeling of obligation is the opposite of the Gospel message. It seems I may not have succeed in helping you to understand the Doctrine and Covenants' perspective on salvation. As I've said, D&C 76 says all who sincerely come unto Christ for salvation are going to be saved in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions of glory. So the alleviation of the fear, stress, and worry about "not making it" and ending up in an endless hell is just as much a part of LDS doctrine of salvation as it is yours. Where we seem to differ is that the New Testament puts great emphasis the saints moving beyond being saved through Christ as a means of escaping from the burden of sin and fear of the second death, but over and over the apostles admonish the church to move forward in the acquisition of additional faith, righteousness and holiness. I acknowledge that that faith, righteousness and holiness is of God, but the scriptures make it perfectly clear that through faithful application of Gospel principles the saints can grow in said faith, righteousness and holiness and by this means ultimately obtain "a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" in eternity.So I'm now going to quote Paul in Philippians 3 once again and afterward I'd like to ask you some questions:12 Not as though I had already attained, neither were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3) 1 "Not as though I had already attained" -- What exactly is it that Paul hasn't already attained? 2 "neither were already perfect" -- In light of the fact that you say you are already perfect in Christ, what exactly is this perfection Paul says he has not yet obtained? 3 "but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." -- Noting that the words 'if' and 'may' indicate Paul has not as yet fully apprehended, what precisely is it that he's hoping to apprehend?4 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended" In light of the fact that Evangelicals are apt to say they are already perfect in Christ, even at the very start of their walk in Christ, what exactly is it that Paul so earnestly wants to apprehend that he as not already apprehended?5 "and reaching forth unto those things which are before" -- What precisely are the things which are before Paul of which he's reaching forward to lay hold?6 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" -- Given that the mark of which Paul speaks is a destination point in an earnest quest, and given Paul has not yet reached said mark, what exactly is the prize he's hoping to obtain that he has not yet obtained? Please note, I'm already well aware of the fact that when Paul wrote these words he was saved, so my questions do not reflect a notion on my part that Paul may not have already been saved when he wrote these words -- I know he was. So it is with a full awareness of this fact planted firmly in my mind that I asked the above questions... Edited January 22, 2014 by teddyaware 1
wenglund Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Christ came to make dead men live. Are these men perfect even though they are now alive (saved)? Of course not. So even though your statement distorts mine, yes it is accurate. Regeneration and transformation what happens after one is saved. So, no I wouldn't say that the regeneration and transformation itself is what saves us. Ah. If saved men are still bad, what have they been saved from? The power of sin, death and hell. I see. To you, salvation consists solely of entering the strait and narrow gate that is Christ, and not also following the path that is Christ. We LDS, on the other hand, view both as salvation, and as such there is no conflict for us in viewing salvation as making dead men alive as well as making bad men good and good men better, though I can see how it would be conflicting for you and Ravi. To each their own. Thanks, -Wade Englund-
wenglund Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Elsewhere on this board, on another thread, there was a discussion about this act of repentance and acceptance as a leap of faith. I'm trying to figure out how you are using the term "good work(s)." Is a good work, by your definition, a leap of faith? I don't know what they mean by "leap of faith," but we LDS view repentance and acceptance as ACTIONS prompted by faith (to us, faith is not just a state or condition of the mind, but it is also a principle of action). And, we rationally equate actions with works. Thus, in our minds, since repentance and acceptance are actions, which are good, then to us they are good works. Thanks, -Wade Englund-
danielwoods Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 It seems I may not have succeed in helping you to understand the Doctrine and Covenants' perspective on salvation. As I've said, D&C 76 says all who sincerely come unto Christ for salvation are going to be saved in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions of glory. So the alleviation of the fear, stress, and worry about "not making it" and ending up in an endless hell is just as much a part of LDS doctrine of salvation as it is yours. Where we seem to differ is that the New Testament puts great emphasis the saints moving beyond being saved through Christ as a means of escaping from the burden of sin and fear of the second death, but over and over the apostles admonish the church to move forward in the acquisition of additional faith, righteousness and holiness. I acknowledge that that faith, righteousness and holiness is of God, but the scriptures make it perfectly clear that through faithful application of Gospel principles the saints can grow in said faith, righteousness and holiness and by this means ultimately obtain "a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" in eternity.So I'm now going to quote Paul in Philippians 3 once again and afterward I'd like to ask you some questions:12 Not as though I had already attained, neither were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3) 1 "Not as though I had already attained" -- What exactly is it that Paul hasn't already attained? 2 "neither were already perfect" -- In light of the fact that you say you are already perfect in Christ, what exactly is this perfection Paul says he has not yet obtained? 3 "but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." -- Noting that the words 'if' and 'may' indicate Paul has not as yet fully apprehended, what precisely is it that he's hoping to apprehend?4 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended" In light of the fact that Evangelicals are apt to say they are already perfect in Christ, even at the very start of their walk in Christ, what exactly is it that Paul so earnestly wants to apprehend that he as not already apprehended?5 "and reaching forth unto those things which are before" -- What precisely are the things which are before Paul of which he's reaching forward to lay hold?6 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" -- Given that the mark of which Paul speaks is a destination point in an earnest quest, and given Paul has not yet reached said mark, what exactly is the prize he's hoping to obtain that he has not yet obtained? Please note, I'm already well aware of the fact that when Paul wrote these words he was saved, so my questions do not reflect a notion on my part that Paul may not have already been saved when he wrote these words -- I know he was. So it is with a full awareness of this fact planted firmly in my mind that I asked the above questions... 1 "Not as though I had already attained" -- What exactly is it that Paul hasn't already attained? Verse 11 answers this: 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 2 "neither were already perfect" -- In light of the fact that you say you are already perfect in Christ, what exactly is this perfection Paul says he has not yet obtained? Hebrews states that we have been made perfect in Christ. Paul here is talking about the resurrection, where sin no longer can effect us. 3 "but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." -- Noting that the words 'if' and 'may' indicate Paul has not as yet fully apprehended, what precisely is it that he's hoping to apprehend? Resurrection. 4 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended" In light of the fact that Evangelicals are apt to say they are already perfect in Christ, even at the very start of their walk in Christ, what exactly is it that Paul so earnestly wants to apprehend that he as not already apprehended? Resurrection. 5 "and reaching forth unto those things which are before" -- What precisely are the things which are before Paul of which he's reaching forward to lay hold? Verses 8 through 11 detail what he's talking about, 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.I count 9 different things. 6 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" -- Given that the mark of which Paul speaks is a destination point in an earnest quest, and given Paul has not yet reached said mark, what exactly is the prize he's hoping to obtain that he has not yet obtained? The resurrection.
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) 1 "Not as though I had already attained" -- What exactly is it that Paul hasn't already attained? Verse 11 answers this: 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 2 "neither were already perfect" -- In light of the fact that you say you are already perfect in Christ, what exactly is this perfection Paul says he has not yet obtained? Hebrews states that we have been made perfect in Christ. Paul here is talking about the resurrection, where sin no longer can effect us. 3 "but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." -- Noting that the words 'if' and 'may' indicate Paul has not as yet fully apprehended, what precisely is it that he's hoping to apprehend? Resurrection. 4 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended" In light of the fact that Evangelicals are apt to say they are already perfect in Christ, even at the very start of their walk in Christ, what exactly is it that Paul so earnestly wants to apprehend that he as not already apprehended? Resurrection. 5 "and reaching forth unto those things which are before" -- What precisely are the things which are before Paul of which he's reaching forward to lay hold? Verses 8 through 11 detail what he's talking about, 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.I count 9 different things. 6 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" -- Given that the mark of which Paul speaks is a destination point in an earnest quest, and given Paul has not yet reached said mark, what exactly is the prize he's hoping to obtain that he has not yet obtained? The resurrection.This is strained interpretation. The resurrection is given to all men without any strivings or faithful effort required on their part. Why would Paul exert all this effort in exhortation for something that's a fait accompli requiring zero effort? All will be resurrected, whether they want to be resurrected or not -- either in the resurrection of the just or the resurrection of the unjust. And the mere fact that there is a resurrection of the unjust clearly demonstrates being resurrected doesn't necessarily mean an individual will perfected in the process...28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5)In the verses in Philippians 3 Paul is clearly striving for "the POWER of His (Christ's) resurrection" in this life and a more glorious resurrection, with a fullness of glory, in the world to come.35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: (Hebrews 11) These last two phrases clearly indicate great deeds of faith performed in this life have a direct bearing on the degree of glorification one receives in the resurrection. Back to Philippians three: Why would Paul say, "if that I may apprehend" when the resurrection is guaranteed? The words 'if' and 'may' refer to future possibilities, not to future sureties. Paul is clearly and unambiguously encouraging the saints to follow his example in earnestly striving to utilize the gifts of the spirit (bequeathed to us by the glorious resurrection of Christ) in order to think, feel and act more and more like Jesus Christ with each passing day. Edited January 22, 2014 by teddyaware
wenglund Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 1 "Not as though I had already attained" -- What exactly is it that Paul hasn't already attained? Verse 11 answers this: 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 2 "neither were already perfect" -- In light of the fact that you say you are already perfect in Christ, what exactly is this perfection Paul says he has not yet obtained? Hebrews states that we have been made perfect in Christ. Paul here is talking about the resurrection, where sin no longer can effect us. 3 "but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." -- Noting that the words 'if' and 'may' indicate Paul has not as yet fully apprehended, what precisely is it that he's hoping to apprehend? Resurrection. 4 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended" In light of the fact that Evangelicals are apt to say they are already perfect in Christ, even at the very start of their walk in Christ, what exactly is it that Paul so earnestly wants to apprehend that he as not already apprehended? Resurrection. 5 "and reaching forth unto those things which are before" -- What precisely are the things which are before Paul of which he's reaching forward to lay hold? Verses 8 through 11 detail what he's talking about, 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.I count 9 different things. 6 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" -- Given that the mark of which Paul speaks is a destination point in an earnest quest, and given Paul has not yet reached said mark, what exactly is the prize he's hoping to obtain that he has not yet obtained? The resurrection. Interesting. However, isn't the resurrection where the dead are made alive (life eternal)--i.e. salvation? (See 1 Cor: 15) In fact, aren't there at least two types of resurrections--one unto life and the other unto damnation. (See John 5:29) Thanks, -Wade Englund-
danielwoods Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 This is strained interpretation. The resurrection is given to all men without any strivings or faithful effort required on their part. Why would Paul exert all this effort in exhortation for something that's a fait accompli requiring zero effort? All will be resurrected, whether they want to be resurrected or not -- either in the resurrection of the just or the resurrection of the unjust. And the mere fact that there is a resurrection of the unjust clearly demonstrates being resurrected doesn't necessarily mean an individual will perfected in the process...28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5)In the verses in Philippians 3 Paul is clearly striving for "the POWER of His (Christ's) resurrection" in this life and a more glorious resurrection, with a fullness of glory, in the world to come.35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: (Hebrews 11) These last two phrases clearly indicate great deeds of faith performed in this life have a direct bearing on the degree of glorification one receives in the resurrection. Back to Philippians three: Why would Paul say, "if that I may apprehend" when the resurrection is guaranteed? The words 'if' and 'may' refer to future possibilities, not to future sureties. Paul is clearly and unambiguously encouraging the saints to follow his example in earnestly striving to utilize the gifts of the spirit (bequeathed to us by the glorious resurrection of Christ) in order to think, feel and act more and more like Jesus Christ with each passing day. You call it a strained interpretation, yet you have to bring in the topic of a different resurrection, that Paul isn't even talking about. The context is Paul (a believer) talking to christian believers, about their future resurrection (of the just, obviously). Now we agree that there are different rewards in Heaven based on what we do here on Earth. We also agree that Paul is clearly encouraging his readers to follow his example to be more like Christ. Where we disagree is what those Heavenly rewards specifically are. And that's ok.
danielwoods Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 Interesting. However, isn't the resurrection where the dead are made alive (life eternal)--i.e. salvation? (See 1 Cor: 15) In fact, aren't there at least two types of resurrections--one unto life and the other unto damnation. (See John 5:29) Thanks, -Wade Englund- Yes and yes...
wenglund Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Yes and yes... Then, logically, one isn't saved (in one sense of the word) until the resurrection, or rather one is saved again or born again through the resurrection. One is raised from corruption to incorruption, or in other words, bad men are made good and good men better as well as the dead are made alive. And, if by "reaching forth," one apprehends the life-giving resurrection rather than the damning resurrection, then by one's works of "reaching forth," one is saved through the resurrection of life. Thanks, -Wade Englund-
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) You call it a strained interpretation, yet you have to bring in the topic of a different resurrection, that Paul isn't even talking about. The context is Paul (a believer) talking to christian believers, about their future resurrection (of the just, obviously). Now we agree that there are different rewards in Heaven based on what we do here on Earth. We also agree that Paul is clearly encouraging his readers to follow his example to be more like Christ. Where we disagree is what those Heavenly rewards specifically are. And that's ok.In Philippians 3, Paul talks about the power of His (the Lord's) resurrection" -- a salvative power we can enjoy and employ right here in mortality. And Paul, in the passages in question, also speaks of the actual resurrection of the physical body from the dead. While the resurrection power is ultimately all one divine power, the fact is that we can experience the resurrection power as an "earnest of our inheritance" while still living in mortality. I'm quite sure you know the difference. If you don't, do a Google search on "the power of his resurrection" from an Evangelical point of view and you'll see I'm correct. It's Christ's resurrection power that enables us to be born again while still in mortality. Again, I'm quite sure you already know this...Otherwise, I happy we're mostly in loose agreement. That's what dialogue is all about -- finding common ground. Edited January 22, 2014 by teddyaware
Vance Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) No, I think you're pretty much at odds with what most NT Christians believe.Nah. NT Christians believed a lot more of the NT than you might imagine. They believed and understood verses like, Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 1 Jn. 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. Edited January 22, 2014 by Vance
Vance Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I think the problem is on the EV side.True. They don't have the proper definition of repentance. They (sometimes) use the meaning of the Greek word as used in a Greek context. They don't really know what it meant to the NT Christians in a Christian context.
Vance Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Show me a New Testament Christian Church (EV, if you'd like) that goes around telling people this. Just one, please.Well, this guy comes very close. http://markcares.net/2013/09/06/obedience-brings-blessings/ But then again, I wouldn't call him a New Testament Christian either. It is a false premise that an EV is equivalent to a "New Testament Christian".
Gervin Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Well, this guy comes very close.http://markcares.net/2013/09/06/obedience-brings-blessings/But then again, I wouldn't call him a New Testament Christian either.It is a false premise that an EV is equivalent to a "New Testament Christian".I asked for a Church, not an individual, but even this example doesn't pass muster. This guy obviously feels a calling to minister to LDS on the very topic that is the subject of this thread, but I also notice he says (my emphasis), To see the stark difference between Mormonism and biblical Christianity, think of what the emphasis would be if this chapter on staying on the Lord’s side of the line was written by a Bible believing Christian. It would revolve around how Jesus, through his shed blood, saved us and how the Holy Spirit, through creating faith in our hearts, put us on the Lord’s side of the line. It would then emphasize the importance of staying in the faith – the importance of always trusting that Jesus did everything for us – including keeping the commandments. Instead of putting the spotlight on us, it would put the spotlight on Jesus. That is what true churches of Jesus Christ do. So, he is not epousing a "do nothing" approach post-salvation.
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