Ravi Zacharias At The Tabernacle 10 Years Later

[wenglund]

You quoted verses about repentance, not how being morally better saves us, but rather how repentance from sin allows God to save us. God makes us alive, being morally better doesn't do that. 

 

As I understand things, repentance is a way of changing men from doing bad things and being bad, to doing good things and being good. Repentance, then, is a way of making bad men good and good men better.

 

Repentance is also a way of changing men from doing things that cause spiritual death and render one spiritually dead, to doing things that quicken the soul and render one spiritually alive.

 

Salvation through repentance isn't an either/or proposition, it is making bad good and dead alive.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 21, 2014 by wenglund

[danielwoods]

As I understand things, repentance is a way of changing men from doing bad things and being bad, to doing good things and being good. Repentance, then, is a way of making bad men good and good men better.

 

Repentance is also a way of changing men from doing things that cause spiritual death and render one spiritually dead, to doing things that quicken the soul and render one spiritually alive.

 

Salvation through repentance isn't an either/or proposition, it is making bad good and dead alive.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Repentance is the act of changing ones mind. Does changing ones mind save us or does Christ save us? 

 

The day that one repents and starts down the road that leads to God, one is "born again" as Jesus said, "no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

 

From that instant or moment in time and following, that person is now alive to God spiritually, that person was dead, and now is alive. Is that the end? of course not, Life has really just begun for that person, and real transformation by the Spirit and real life begins at that point.

[Vance]

Repentance is the act of changing ones mind. Does changing ones mind save us or does Christ save us?

Repentance is more than just "changing ones mind". It is about changing ones behavior, ie, making bad people good and good people better.

The day that one repents and starts down the road that leads to God, one is "born again" as Jesus said, "no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

Being born again is about being a new, BETTER person.

 

From that instant or moment in time and following, that person is now alive to God spiritually, that person was dead, and now is alive. Is that the end? of course not, Life has really just begun for that person, and real transformation by the Spirit and real life begins at that point.

Being born again is not just an event, it is also a life long process. Just like repentance is a life long process.

The event part of being born again is being born of the water, or in other words baptism by water.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Repentance is the act of changing ones mind. Does changing ones mind save us or does Christ save us? 

 

The day that one repents and starts down the road that leads to God, one is "born again" as Jesus said, "no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

 

From that instant or moment in time and following, that person is now alive to God spiritually, that person was dead, and now is alive. Is that the end? of course not, Life has really just begun for that person, and real transformation by the Spirit and real life begins at that point.

I got news Christ can't save you if you dont repent. You seem to be separating the 2. You can't do that.

[wenglund]

Repentance is the act of changing ones mind. Does changing ones mind save us or does Christ save us? 

 

To me, the answer is: both.

 

The day that one repents and starts down the road that leads to God, one is "born again" as Jesus said, "no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

 

From that instant or moment in time and following, that person is now alive to God spiritually, that person was dead, and now is alive. Is that the end? of course not, Life has really just begun for that person, and real transformation by the Spirit and real life begins at that point.

 

Setting aside for the moment the debate whether rebirth/salvation is a single event or a processes (I view it as both), even if one assumes that it is just a single event as you describe, where the spiritually dead are made alive, one may likewise reasonably view it as bad men being made good and good men being made better. I see no either/or conflict here.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[danielwoods]

Repentance is more than just "changing ones mind". It is about changing ones behavior, ie, making bad people good and good people better.

Being born again is about being a new, BETTER person.

 

Being born again is not just an event, it is also a life long process. Just like repentance is a life long process.

The event part of being born again is being born of the water, or in other words baptism by water.

 

 

Sounds like you agreed with me. 

 

I said, "The day that one repents and starts down the road that leads to God, one is "born again"...

[danielwoods]

To me, the answer is: both.

 

 

 

 

Setting aside for the moment the debate whether rebirth/salvation is a single event or a processes (I view it as both), even if one assumes that it is just a single event as you describe, where the spiritually dead are made alive, one may likewise reasonably view it as bad men being made good and good men being made better. I see no either/or conflict here.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

We aren't granted the privilege of heaven based on our good works, or how good we are or even based on our own merits. So, making good people better isn't how I'd say it. 

[wenglund]

We aren't granted the privilege of heaven based on our good works, or how good we are or even based on our own merits. So, making good people better isn't how I'd say it. 

 

With all due respect, I believe you are here confusing means with ends. Setting aside for the moment the debate whether good works may be a means to salvation, is there really any debate whether goodness is an end of salvation? If not, then even if one believes that being good doesn't result in salvation, nevertheless one may reasonably believe that salvation makes one good, or in other words, salvation makes bad men good and good men better, as well as the dead to come alive. Again, I see no real conflict here. Do you?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[teddyaware]

We aren't granted the privilege of heaven based on our good works, or how good we are or even based on our own merits. So, making good people better isn't how I'd say it.

Rewards in heaven, beyond mere entry into heaven, are bestowed in direct proportion to the measure of the Spirit that fills each man. In the LDS religion, those who continue to exercise faith unto the overcoming of the world will be permitted to sit on thrones of divine power and rulership along with God and Christ. Those who merely believe but do not valiantly continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of God will be saved but not receive the fullness of heavenly rewards promised to the more diligent and faithful followers of Christ.

In the LDS religion it's pretty easy to get saved, but it's much more spiritually challenging to lay hold on the far more and exceeding weight of glory promised to those who not only believe, but also overcome the allure of sin, the flesh and the devil through mighty faith in Christ.

Edited January 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[halconero]

We aren't granted the privilege of heaven based on our good works, or how good we are or even based on our own merits. So, making good people better isn't how I'd say it. 

 

A question that I've had for the past while, but haven't had the opportunity to ask, is how to reconcile accepting Christ with the idea that nothing we do merits our entrance to heaven?

 

Is accepting Christ a good work? Or do you not subscribe to that particular doctrine?

 

If the work is entirely done on Christ's part, doesn't that remove our free will from the equation and make who ever believes such a thing a believer in predestination?

[danielwoods]

With all due respect, I believe you are here confusing means with ends. Setting aside for the moment the debate whether good works may be a means to salvation, is there really any debate whether goodness is an end of salvation? If not, then even if one believes that being good doesn't result in salvation, nevertheless one may reasonably believe that salvation makes one good, or in other words, salvation makes bad men good and good men better, as well as the dead to come alive. Again, I see no real conflict here. Do you?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I agree that salvation regenerates men to good works. However, the idea that salvation makes bad men good has a focus on the man, and their goodness or not. In essence, a saved man is still bad, just saved. What do I mean by that? Simply that the focus on the external is what we are really good at, yet God looks at the heart and he works on us "To will and to do..." from the inside out. We are regenerated and transformed from the inside first, which produces the fruit of good works that others see. Which is why, I think, Ravi described it the way he did. That Christ came to make dead men live. Making bad people good is what every other religion on the planet is focused on doing. Christ's message is quite radical and different. God came down to us, we don't work our way to him. 

[mfbukowski]

The whole quote, "In the Christian message, the problem is not really being morally better. In the Christian message, the content is that Jesus Christ didn't come into this world to make bad people good, he came into this world to make dead people live. We are dead to God, he makes us alive to God. That is the gospel message.

 

You quoted verses about repentance, not how being morally better saves us, but rather how repentance from sin allows God to save us. God makes us alive, being morally better doesn't do that. 

LDS believe that we are saved by grace. What is your point?

[mfbukowski]

Repentance is the act of changing ones mind. Does changing ones mind save us or does Christ save us? 

 

The day that one repents and starts down the road that leads to God, one is "born again" as Jesus said, "no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

 

From that instant or moment in time and following, that person is now alive to God spiritually, that person was dead, and now is alive. Is that the end? of course not, Life has really just begun for that person, and real transformation by the Spirit and real life begins at that point.

How can one accept Christ without changing one's mind?  There is no logical point here.  Accepting Christ IS repentance.  The distinction is purely semantic.

[danielwoods]

A question that I've had for the past while, but haven't had the opportunity to ask, is how to reconcile accepting Christ with the idea that nothing we do merits our entrance to heaven?

 

Is accepting Christ a good work? Or do you not subscribe to that particular doctrine?

 

If the work is entirely done on Christ's part, doesn't that remove our free will from the equation and make who ever believes such a thing a believer in predestination?

 

Accepting Christ (or repentance) is the changing of one's mind or attitude. It isn't a work in the sense of doing "good works". Rather, it's an exercise of our free will. 

[teddyaware]

How can one accept Christ without changing one's mind?  There is no logical point here.  Accepting Christ IS repentance.  The distinction is purely semantic.

Excellent! You hit the bullseye!

I'm not sure if it was Daniel or another, but I discovered while engaged in a discussion on salvation on another thread that there's very little actual difference between the LDS and Evangelical positions on salvation. The reason why the LDS community and the Evangelicals have ended up in so many fruitless debates on this subject is for one simple reason, and until a Latter-day Saint understands what that reason is he and his Evangelical friends will go around and around on this without any satisfactory conclusion, other than each side hardening their positions, with the debaters on each side being more convinced than ever they're the one's who are right. Here's the reason for the confusion:

 

Though many Latter-day Saints do not know or understand the doctrinal point I'm about to make, it's an important one and it is true: In order to be saved in any of the three kingdoms of glory, an individual must come unto Christ, sincerely repent and receive a remission of their sins. It goes without saying that those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will have come unto Christ, repented of their sins and received forgiveness. But what about those in the lower two kingdoms of glory? Well the truth is that I could cite many verses of scripture to answer that question, but in order to keep this explanation of mine as short as possible I will (at least for now) keep my quotes to a minimum, hoping they'll suffice, I quote the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 76 and the Bible (please take especial note of the words and passages in bold italic):

 

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

4 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

 

And again...

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

 

With this last verse, we are asked to cross reference the word 'confess; with Paul's declaration in Philippians 2 which says:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

 

So I will now expound on each of the highlighted portions above:

1 "the only ones who shall not be redeemed,"  -- Except for the son's of perdition, all the other children of the Father will sooner or later be redeemed. In the context of the Gospel, the word 'redeemed' mostly refers to having one's sins paid for and remitted by Jesus Christ.

2 "And this is the gospel" -- Note here that the good news of the Gospel is extended to all but the sons of perdition.

 

3"through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb" -- The redemption of all (except for the sons of perdition) is made possible not apart from, but through the triumph of Christ, which triumph was over sin, the flesh and the devil.

4 "That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;" -- It's exceedingly important to realize this verse is speaking of all the Father's children, except for the sons of perdition. This means that except for the sons of perdition, all the other inhabitants of the world will sooner or later be "cleansed from all unrighteousness." But though all will be cleansed from sin, this section of the D &C makes it clear there will be different degrees of sanctification enjoyed by the saved. There will be a celestial degree of sanctification, a terrestrial degree of the same, and a terrestrial degree as well.

5 "through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power" -- All but the sons of perdition will eventually be saved by the power of God and Christ. The Gospel teaches us the only way a man can be put into the power of Christ is by coming unto Him through faith in Him, repentance and then receiving a remission of sins. There is no other way to be placed within and under the power of Christ because He will compel no man to accept Him; He and His sacred offering must be freely accepted by one's own free will and choice.

6 "and saves all the works of his hands" Christ will save all of His creation except the Sons of perdition, who by their own choice have placed themselves beyond the saving power of Christ's atonement.

7 "who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him."  By extension, this phrase tells us all but the sons of perdition will acknowledge the Son of God and not deny Him in his role as Saviour.

8 "And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;" -- In context, this verse is speaking of the inheritors of the telestial kingdom. We are told these saved individuals will humbly bow the knee to Christ and confess Him before God. This is made clear by the verse we are asked to cross reference in Philippians 2...

 

9 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." -- So in this verse we are told the inheritors of the telestial kingdom (among all the others saved) are going to confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord, which confession will redound to the glory of God the Father who is the author of the Gospel plan.

 

We are told there is only one way under heaven a man can genuinely accept Jesus Christ as Lord, and that acceptance is only made possible by the Holy Ghost... "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Corinthians 12:3) So not only are the inheritors of the telestial kingdom forgiven of their sins but they also enjoy the Gift of the Holy Spirit. This is why D&C 76 says: "86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;"

 

So where am I going with this? As D&C 76 goes on to say, the celestial kingdom is reserved for the valiant in the testimony of Jesus, the terrestrial kingdom is reserved for those who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and the telestial kingdom is reserved for those who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus and have only done the bear minimum necessary in order to obtain the lowest kingdom of glory. And what are the bear minimum requirements needed in order to obtain the lowest heaven? It's repenting of your sins and accepting Christ as Saviour, and not much else. So the lowest kingdom of heaven is reserved for those who are willing to acknowledge Christ and repent. But these people were compelled to be humble and unwilling to take the faithful steps needed in order to grow in the grace and knowledge of God that they might receive "a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." (2 Corithians4:17)

So the Latter-day Saints and the Evangelicals are largely in agreement. Those who merely believe in Christ and do little else to grow in the gospel will still be saved. While those who believe in Christ and become His true disciples, by overcoming sin the world through the power of God, will receive the full weight of eternal reward.

You see, our Evangelical brethren believe there are rewards in heaven held in store for those who are particularly faithful, and this is just as the Latter-day Saints believe. So the reason why the Latter-day Saints always banging heads with Evangelicals on the subject of salvation and rarely, if ever, get anywhere constructive in that debate, is because the LDS religion that's taught in all our meetings and conferences is the Gospel of full reward of exaltation, while our Evangelical friends spend more time focusing on what's necessary to receive salvation without that much emphasis (as far as I can see) on obtaining the full weight of reward the Latter-day Saints call exaltation. 

I will conclude by quoting a wonderful scripture wherein the Lord is admonishing certain already saved saints to stretch their faithful obedience far beyond merely fulfilling the bear minimum requirements of salvation. Rather, He implores them to continually repent and without ceasing faithfully walk the Gospel path that will enable them to overcome the world and ultimately sit crowned on the throne of the eternal power of God:

19 As many as I love (those who are already saved), I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Edited January 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[wenglund]

I agree that salvation regenerates men to good works. However, the idea that salvation makes bad men good has a focus on the man, and their goodness or not. In essence, a saved man is still bad, just saved. What do I mean by that? Simply that the focus on the external is what we are really good at, yet God looks at the heart and he works on us "To will and to do..." from the inside out. We are regenerated and transformed from the inside first, which produces the fruit of good works that others see. Which is why, I think, Ravi described it the way he did. That Christ came to make dead men live. Making bad people good is what every other religion on the planet is focused on doing. Christ's message is quite radical and different. God came down to us, we don't work our way to him. 

 

Or, in other words, Christ came to make dead men live as bad men? Does that make sense to you?

 

Are you suggesting that the "regeneration and transformation" is not salvific?

 

If saved men are still bad, then what have they been saved from?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

Accepting Christ (or repentance) is the changing of one's mind or attitude. It isn't a work in the sense of doing "good works". Rather, it's an exercise of our free will. 

Semantics.

[mfbukowski]

Excellent! You hit the bullseye!

I'm not sure if it was Daniel or another, but I discovered while engaged in a discussion on salvation on another thread that there's very little actual difference between the LDS and Evangelical positions on salvation. The reason why the LDS community and the Evangelicals have ended up in so many fruitless debates on this subject is for one simple reason, and until a Latter-day Saint understands what that reason is he and his Evangelical friends will go around and around on this without any satisfactory conclusion, other than each side hardening their positions, with the debaters on each side being more convinced than ever they're the one's who are right. Here's the reason for the confusion:

 

Though many Latter-day Saints do not know or understand the doctrinal point I'm about to make, it's an important one and it is true: In order to be saved in any of the three kingdoms of glory, an individual must come unto Christ, sincerely repent and receive a remission of their sins. It goes without saying that those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will have come unto Christ, repented of their sins and received forgiveness. But what about those in the lower two kingdoms of glory? Well the truth is that I could cite many verses of scripture to answer that question, but in order to keep this explanation of mine as short as possible I will (at least for now) keep my quotes to a minimum, hoping they'll suffice, I quote the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 76 and the Bible (please take especial note of the words and passages in bold italic):

 

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

4 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

 

And again...

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

 

With this last verse, we are asked to cross reference the word 'confess; with Paul's declaration in Philippians 2 which says:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2)

 

So I will now expound on each of the highlighted portions above:

1 "the only ones who shall not be redeemed,"  -- Except for the son's of perdition, all the other children of the Father will sooner or later be redeemed. In the context of the Gospel, the word 'redeemed' mostly refers to having one's sins paid for and remitted by Jesus Christ.

2 "And this is the gospel" -- Note here that the good news of the Gospel is extended to all but the sons of perdition.

 

3"through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb" -- The redemption of all (except for the sons of perdition) is made possible not apart from, but through the triumph of Christ, which triumph was over sin, the flesh and the devil.

4 "That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;" -- It's exceedingly important to realize this verse is speaking of all the Father's children, except for the sons of perdition. This means that except for the sons of perdition, all the other inhabitants of the world will sooner or later be "cleansed from all unrighteousness." But though all will be cleansed from sin, this section of the D &C makes it clear there will be different degrees of sanctification enjoyed by the saved. There will be a celestial degree of sanctification, a terrestrial degree of the same, and a terrestrial degree as well.

5 "through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power" -- All but the sons of perdition will eventually be saved by the power of God and Christ. The Gospel teaches us the only way a man can be put into the power of Christ is by coming unto Him through faith in Him, repentance and then receiving a remission of sins. There is no other way to be placed within and under the power of Christ because He will compel no man to accept Him; He and His sacred offering must be freely accepted by one's own free will and choice.

6 "and saves all the works of his hands" Christ will save all of His creation except the Sons of perdition, who by their own choice have placed themselves beyond the saving power of Christ's atonement.

7 "who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him."  By extension, this phrase tells us all but the sons of perdition will acknowledge the Son of God and not deny Him in his role as Saviour.

8 "And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;" -- In context, this verse is speaking of the inheritors of the telestial kingdom. We are told these saved individuals will humbly bow the knee to Christ and confess Him before God. This is made clear by the verse we are asked to cross reference in Philippians 2...

 

9 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." -- So in this verse we are told the inheritors of the telestial kingdom (among all the others saved) are going to confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord, which confession will redound to the glory of God the Father who is the author of the Gospel plan.

 

We are told there is only one way under heaven a man can genuinely accept Jesus Christ as Lord, and that acceptance is only made possible by the Holy Ghost... "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Corinthians 12:3) So not only are the inheritors of the telestial kingdom forgiven of their sins but they also enjoy the Gift of the Holy Spirit. This is why D&C 76 says: "86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;"

 

So where am I going with this? As D&C 76 goes on to say, the celestial kingdom is reserved for the valiant in the testimony of Jesus, the terrestrial kingdom is reserved for those who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and the telestial kingdom is reserved for those who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus and have only done the bear minimum necessary in order to obtain the lowest kingdom of glory. And what are the bear minimum requirements needed in order to obtain the lowest heaven? It's repenting of your sins and accepting Christ as Saviour, and not much else. So the lowest kingdom of heaven is reserved for those who are willing to acknowledge Christ and repent. But these people were compelled to be humble and unwilling to take the faithful steps needed in order to grow in the grace and knowledge of God that they might receive "a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." (2 Corithians4:17)

So the Latter-day Saints and the Evangelicals are largely in agreement. Those who merely believe in Christ and do little else to grow in the gospel will still be saved. While those who believe in Christ and become His true disciples, by overcoming sin the world through the power of God, will receive the full weight of eternal reward.

You see, our Evangelical brethren believe there are rewards in heaven held in store for those who are particularly faithful, and this is just as the Latter-day Saints believe. So the reason why the Latter-day Saints always banging heads with Evangelicals on the subject of salvation and rarely, if ever, get anywhere constructive in that debate, is because the LDS religion that's taught in all our meetings and conferences is the Gospel of full reward of exaltation, while our Evangelical friends spend more time focusing on what's necessary to receive salvation without that much emphasis (as far as I can see) on obtaining the full weight of reward the Latter-day Saints call exaltation. 

I will conclude by quoting a wonderful scripture wherein the Lord is admonishing certain already saved saints to stretch their faithful obedience far beyond merely fulfilling the bear minimum requirements of salvation. Rather, He implores them to continually repent and without ceasing faithfully walk the Gospel path that will enable them to overcome the world and ultimately sit crowned on the throne of the eternal power of God:

19 As many as I love (those who are already saved), I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Agree.

 

All many want is to float around on a cloud and praise God all day.  Sounds pretty telestial to me.  But even the telestial kingdom is "salvation".  If that's all they want, they will be happy forever.  Good for them!

[mfbukowski]

Or, in other words, Christ came to make dead men live as bad men? Does that make sense to you?

 

Are you suggesting that the "regeneration and transformation" is not salvific?

 

If saved men are still bad, then what have they been saved from?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Exactly.  I owe you a couple of rep points just for that one.

[wenglund]

Excellent! You hit the bullseye!

 

Very nicely said!

 

However, and not that I disagree, but part of the confusion on both parties part may stem from differing perspectives on what "salvation" means, and what all is included under the umbrella of salvation--i.e. what all we are being saved from.

 

Some assume that salvation pertains only to remission of sin.

 

Others may suggest that it also includes being saved from the grave through the resurrection.

 

I happen view it as also including things like salvation from ignorance, salvation from ungodliness, salvation from the disposition to sin, salvation from self-centered-ness, or in other words salvation from the natural man, and salvation from damnation, etc., which leaves little if any distinction in my view between salvation and exaltation.

 

And, since each of these things I mentioned extend beyond simply believing in and accepting Christ, to actually performing salvific works, I am not sure this comports with how my EV friends believe.

 

But, that may just be me.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Gervin]

Semantics.

Since semantics is the study of meaning, perhaps a good working definition of "good works" would help clarify the LDS position.

[Gervin]

 

And, since each of these things I mentioned extend beyond simply believing in and accepting Christ, to actually performing salvific works, I am not sure this comports with how my EV friends believe.

 

But, that may just be me.

 

No, I think you're pretty much at odds with what most NT Christians believe.

[wenglund]

No, I think you're pretty much at odds with what most NT Christians believe.

 

Wont be the first or last time. Chalk it up to my non-binary thinking,

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[teddyaware]

Agree.

 

All many want is to float around on a cloud and praise God all day.  Sounds pretty telestial to me.  But even the telestial kingdom is "salvation".  If that's all they want, they will be happy forever.  Good for them!

Though I don't have the quote at hand, I believe that Brigham Young once said many of the non-LDS Christians would get just as much of heaven as they hoped for or expected. They will not be disappointed. Heaven will pretty much turn out the way they imagined it would be.

[teddyaware]

Very nicely said!

 

However, and not that I disagree, but part of the confusion on both parties part may stem from differing perspectives on what "salvation" means, and what all is included under the umbrella of salvation--i.e. what all we are being saved from.

 

Some assume that salvation pertains only to remission of sin.

 

Others may suggest that it also includes being saved from the grave through the resurrection.

 

I happen view it as also including things like salvation from ignorance, salvation from ungodliness, salvation from the disposition to sin, salvation from self-centered-ness, or in other words salvation from the natural man, and salvation from damnation, etc., which leaves little if any distinction in my view between salvation and exaltation.

 

And, since each of these things I mentioned extend beyond simply believing in and accepting Christ, to actually performing salvific works, I am not sure this comports with how my EV friends believe.

 

But, that may just be me.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You're correct Wade. As I'm sure you already know, when speaking of the hereafter, salvation can mean at least two things to the Latter-day Saints. In one of its LDS meanings it's synonymous with exaltation; in the other it means any of the stations of salvation within the three kingdoms of glory. When not speaking exclusively of the hereafter, salvation to the LDS can also mean being converted to the Lord while still in mortality on earth -- I suppose there are other usages of the word as well.

But I must say it's my opinion that though Evangelicals do believe there are heavenly rewards in store for the extraordinarily faithful, rewards that extend beyond the blessings salvation that come with an acceptance of Christ as Saviour, the reason why they focus less on the heavenly rewards to the valiant and more on basic salvation is because they, for obvious reasons, love to dwell on the idea that nothing is expected or required of them in order to be saved, other than a genuine profession of faith.

 

On some level, there's something very appealing about such an idea: A life without solemn expectations and responsibilities that leads to a glorious hereafter. Such an arrangement is the fulfillment of the fondest of dreams of some folks. And as a Latter-day Saint, I suppose if I wanted to do so I could follow in much the same path: Be a nice guy but refuse any and all Church callings, never have family home evenings, refuse to be made a home teacher, never bother to study the scriptures, never take time to pray, never worry about charitable work or serving in the temple, never worry about the scriptural passages that call us to moral and spiritual excellence, etc.. Yet as long as I continue to have a testimony that the Gospel is true and that Jesus is my Christ, I'll eventually receive an inheritance in one of the many terrestrial or telestial mansions in our Father's heavenly house of glory --  heavenly kingdoms so wondrous and joyful that its impossible for a mere mortal even imagine. So it might be said, this is the ultimate fate of the slothful or indifferent member of the LDS Church. 

 

But when you stop to think about it, I would imagine only the lowest rung in the telestial kingdom would be fit for such an ungrateful, lazy and unwise rascal.    

Edited January 22, 2014 by teddyaware