Jewish Ritual Washing And Baptism?

[ChristKnight]

I became aware that Jews practice "tevilah", a full immersion in a body of water, sometimes a "mikveh" done for various reasons, including during the conversion process.  I'm assuming this is where the practice of Christian baptism descended from?  Do you believe that this has any implications for practices such as infant baptism and/or baptism by pouring water (noting of course that the Didache states early in Christian history that pouring is allowed when immersion is not possible)? 

 

Interestingly, at least one site I read said that the person is immersed three times, which reminds me of the Orthodox Christian practice of triple immersion for baptism (including for infants).

 

 

[3DOP]

Hi ChristKnight. Merry Christmas.

 

Unless the Jewish practice included infants, it wouldn't seem to speak to the question of infant baptism. The Jewish practice that some like me point to for infant baptism is circumcision. Circumcision is a covenant rite for infants that is a precedent for the New Testament ritual. It seems difficult to argue against pedobaptism on the apparently logical ground that an infant can't make a decision of such serious magnitude. A study of Gen. 17 and the repercussions of being an uncircumcised male, even an infant, makes it appear that God has given parents the authority to make such decisions for their children. Obviously when grown, the one who received a covenant rite as an infant still retains the freedom to break the covenant his parents made on his/her behalf. Additionally St. Paul seems to connect the two rites in speaking of baptism as "the circumcision of Christ".

 

"In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead." (Col. 2:11, 12)

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I became aware that Jews practice "tevilah", a full immersion in a body of water, sometimes a "mikveh" done for various reasons, including during the conversion process.  I'm assuming this is where the practice of Christian baptism descended from?  Do you believe that this has any implications for practices such as infant baptism and/or baptism by pouring water (noting of course that the Didache states early in Christian history that pouring is allowed when immersion is not possible)? 

 

Interestingly, at least one site I read said that the person is immersed three times, which reminds me of the Orthodox Christian practice of triple immersion for baptism (including for infants).

Actually from the Bible and BoM we know that baptism predates Christianity.

[mfbukowski]

I became aware that Jews practice "tevilah", a full immersion in a body of water, sometimes a "mikveh" done for various reasons, including during the conversion process.  I'm assuming this is where the practice of Christian baptism descended from?  Do you believe that this has any implications for practices such as infant baptism and/or baptism by pouring water (noting of course that the Didache states early in Christian history that pouring is allowed when immersion is not possible)? 

 

Interestingly, at least one site I read said that the person is immersed three times, which reminds me of the Orthodox Christian practice of triple immersion for baptism (including for infants).

I have no answers, but will add an additional question.

 

What WAS it that "John the Baptist" was doing in the desert?  What ritual was it understood to be at the time?  It seems that would be a pretty relevant area for research on this question.

[Palerider]

I have no answers, but will add an additional question.

 

What WAS it that "John the Baptist" was doing in the desert?  What ritual was it understood to be at the time?  It seems that would be a pretty relevant area for research on this question.

 

It's interesting from a New Testament point of view, that no one seemed to act as if it was something foreign to them. No one said, there's this guy practicing heresy out there in the desert.

 

The Pharisees and Saducees rejected him (John) as a messenger but it didn't seem to be based on the ordinance he was performing.

[Sevenbak]

Not Jewish, and not that old, but this little font goes back to the 10th Century.

 

[mfbukowski]

It's interesting from a New Testament point of view, that no one seemed to act as if it was something foreign to them. No one said, there's this guy practicing heresy out there in the desert.

 

The Pharisees and Saducees rejected him (John) as a messenger but it didn't seem to be based on the ordinance he was performing.

Exactly- and I have always thought that rather surprising.

[Robert F. Smith]

It's interesting from a New Testament point of view, that no one seemed to act as if it was something foreign to them. No one said, there's this guy practicing heresy out there in the desert.

 

The Pharisees and Saducees rejected him (John) as a messenger but it didn't seem to be based on the ordinance he was performing.

A reasonable observation, although the likely reason why the Sadducees (establishment priests) and Pharisees (rabbis) refused to be baptized by John was because what he was doing seemed to them too similar to what their rivals were doing at Qumran, i.e., baptism as part of initiation into that sect, along with regular baptism by immersion for purification.  Any convert to Judaism then (as now) was required to be baptized and circumcized.

[mfbukowski]

 Any convert to Judaism then (as now) was required to be baptized and circumcized.

Where can I get more information on that?

[mfbukowski]

Where can I get more information on that?

One answer to my own question:  http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456-baptism

 

BAPTISM:

 

 

 

 

A religious ablution signifying purification or consecration. The natural method of cleansing the body by washing and bathing in water was always customary in Israel (see Ablution, Bathing). The washing of their clothes was an important means of sanctification enjoined on the Israelites before the Revelation on Mt. Sinai (Ex. xix. 10). The Rabbis connect with this the duty of bathing by complete immersion ("ṭebilah," Yeb. 46b; Mek., Baḥodesh, iii.); and since sprinkling with blood was always accompanied by immersion, tradition connects with this immersion the blood lustration mentioned as having also taken place immediately before the Revelation (Ex. xxiv. , these three acts being the initiatory rites always performed upon proselytes, "to bring them under the wings of the Shekinah" (Yeb. l.c.).

And then we have Exodus 40: 12-13

 

¹² And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

¹³ And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

 

which should sound familiar.

Edited December 30, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

Where can I get more information on that?

You can find a full discussion of conversion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism .  A couple of people whom I knew in Jerusalem went through the process.

[mfbukowski]

So my conclusion then is that John was doing a "normal" activity for anyone joining a new sect- first re-pentance (re-thinking, literally from the French) and being washed, in a sense to wash away the old attitudes, and from Paul we see the idea of being buried in the water also being a symbol for death and re-birth, including all the connotations of coming forth again from the mother's womb.

 

Very cool stuff!

 

But even with rebirth, we are still stained with our mother's blood, the blood of "this generation" from which we are later cleansed and annointed as was Aaron to become a Priest unto the most high God.

 

Very very cool stuff, for those with the "ears" to hear the word of the Lord.

Edited December 30, 2013 by mfbukowski

[EllenMaksoud]

I became aware that Jews practice "tevilah", a full immersion in a body of water, sometimes a "mikveh" done for various reasons, including during the conversion process.  I'm assuming this is where the practice of Christian baptism descended from?  Do you believe that this has any implications for practices such as infant baptism and/or baptism by pouring water (noting of course that the Didache states early in Christian history that pouring is allowed when immersion is not possible)? 

 

Interestingly, at least one site I read said that the person is immersed three times, which reminds me of the Orthodox Christian practice of triple immersion for baptism (including for infants).

Interesting and only distantly related is the fact that even Muslims practice a ritual washing before prayer. It is called Wudhu. I think in the case of Muslims, it is to actually clean themselves, and they can even do the ritual in the desert using unsoiled sand.

 

Conversely, Christian and Jewish rituals that are similar relate to spiritual washing and the desire to be made clean.

[Robert F. Smith]

Interesting and only distantly related is the fact that even Muslims practice a ritual washing before prayer. It is called Wudhu. I think in the case of Muslims, it is to actually clean themselves, and they can even do the ritual in the desert using unsoiled sand.

 

Conversely, Christian and Jewish rituals that are similar relate to spiritual washing and the desire to be made clean.

I used to see Muslims entering Haram es-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary)* for prayer, washing hands and feet at the large area set apart for that, before entering Al-Aksa Mosque, or Masjid Omar.  I always thought that it had the same spiritual meaning as for the Jews.

 

* The Jewish Temple Mount in Jerusalem, which is under the full control of the Muslims.

[EllenMaksoud]

I used to see Muslims entering Haram es-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary)* for prayer, washing hands and feet at the large area set apart for that, before entering Al-Aksa Mosque, or Masjid Omar.  I always thought that it had the same spiritual meaning as for the Jews.

 

* The Jewish Temple Mount in Jerusalem, which is under the full control of the Muslims.

I am not familiar with Jewish washing customs.

 

It is interesting that I have prayed at the Western Wall and been down in the tunnels, one of which continues on under that Mosque, but never got to see the "front" side of the Mosque because I was not Muslim at the time.

[Robert F. Smith]

I am not familiar with Jewish washing customs.

 

It is interesting that I have prayed at the Western Wall and been down in the tunnels, one of which continues on under that Mosque, but never got to see the "front" side of the Mosque because I was not Muslim at the time.

I have been inside both Masjid Omar (Dome of the Rock) and Al Aksa.  Both are beautiful and worth seeing up close.

[Sevenbak]

I have been inside both Masjid Omar (Dome of the Rock) and Al Aksa.  Both are beautiful and worth seeing up close.

Amen to that and ditto.  The cave underneath the rock slab in the DotR was likewise beautiful and felt sacred to me, even or perhaps because, it didn't have any of the ornamentation that the rest of the mosque had.

[volgadon]

I am not familiar with Jewish washing customs.

 

They are closer to the Muslim ones than the mikveh is.

[ChristKnight]

Interesting and only distantly related is the fact that even Muslims practice a ritual washing before prayer. It is called Wudhu. I think in the case of Muslims, it is to actually clean themselves, and they can even do the ritual in the desert using unsoiled sand.

 

Conversely, Christian and Jewish rituals that are similar relate to spiritual washing and the desire to be made clean.

 

Thanks, yes, I'm a little familiar with wudu.  Very interesting.  I think that water purification rituals seem to be found in practically all religions, in some form. 

 

I thought that for Muslims it was also about spiritual washing, since it's done before prayer and reading the Qur'an, right?

[EllenMaksoud]

Thanks, yes, I'm a little familiar with wudu.  Very interesting.  I think that water purification rituals seem to be found in practically all religions, in some form. 

 

I thought that for Muslims it was also about spiritual washing, since it's done before prayer and reading the Qur'an, right?

I don't know why I missed the connection. You are of course correct. The rules regarding Wudu are a bit convoluted and I must say that it is doubtful that in 7 years as Muslim I ever fully understood them. It all got a bit sublime to me. One of course washes the feet first and three strokes up the ankle, then the hands and arms to the elbow, then the face and top of the head. In my experience you could talk to 6 different people and get that many variations on what is proper. Finger nail polish is not permissible unless you take it all off at each prayer but messy henna is. Makeup is supposed to all come off, but I never saw that happen.