Abiltity To Name Specific Mistakes

[rockpond]

So you’re asking, or more appropriately, inviting that everyone get the Spirit to change them from the inside for the betterment of all, which is what the Church is for. This is a fairly consistent message from virtually every Church source and resource. If you want to change the culture for the better, which I think everyone would agree with, get the Spirit and share it.

Building the Church culture is not about making interpretations like I did as a teenager (I was never bothered by what I observed)—it is about getting the Spirit (wherein lies the real freedom), and helping others to experience Him as fellow citizens with the saints, regardless of cultural background and personal makeup. If it was possible for me, it is possible anyone; whatever the advantage or disadvantage one has in staying with the Church, the Spirit will help (believe me, I had as many disadvantages as anyone!). I described a few ways the Church facilitates that and teaches us to do that.

"Hastening the work" starts with individuals and blesses others and the whole Church, not with telling everyone to adopt a personal conclusion about what is needed for a new-and-improved culture.

People who don’t feel they can “decide what fits and what doesn't fit and adjust accordingly” need a friend, a responsibility, and nurturing by the good word. They may need other, more specific attention from friends and the councils responsible for their shepherding. I suppose we have some horror stories because some are sometimes denied these things (President Hinckley shared his own experience of feeling at fault), but I don’t think they need the Church culture to change for them before they can be saved, or for everybody else to change before they do, because the Spirit will give them the freedom to cope with conflicts and tough issues and find comfort and progress where they can. Naturally if we know someone like this, we can help them. I do all the time!

All of that is good. But we are still losing people who have a friend, a responsibility, and are being nourished by the good word.

There is a culture in the church that what is spoken by the apostles in gen con is "scripture" and that the church is either all true or a complete hoax. I believe that such black and white oversimplifications can be harmful to the faith of some. And such teachings by the Brethren are going to be difficult for our local councils to overcome without a continuing change from the top.

[DBMormon]

My husband and I went to dinner with friends, and they started talking about a guy in their ward who told our friend who is in the HP presidency that he was receiving visions from God and was told to quit his job and prepare to move. Also that he saw his deceased son in the temple who spoke to him. This led to a discussion that felt weird because we were talking about things I'd never discussed with them for fear they'd think I was an apostate for believing it. But apparently they had their eyes open recently with different things on the internet and had just watched "10 Things You Didn't Know About Mormons" on the History Channel. I think the church can't go any faster in getting things out. I was trying to put a positive spin on their concerns, I now know what an apologist feels like, I don't want them to go through what I have.

 

You Should recommend they got to FairMormonSupport.org  this is a great site for those who need to work through their questions with somebody who has been there and can help them walk their way through tough issues.

[CV75]

All of that is good. But we are still losing people who have a friend, a responsibility, and are being nourished by the good word. There is a culture in the church that what is spoken by the apostles in gen con is "scripture" and that the church is either all true or a complete hoax. I believe that such black and white oversimplifications can be harmful to the faith of some. And such teachings by the Brethren are going to be difficult for our local councils to overcome without a continuing change from the top.

Of course we do—something sometimes gets lost in that third part. People get exposed to the “bad word,” choose it or allow their nurturing in it over the good word and fall. Some leverage a mistake into a moral offense, and the non-essential into the all-important, and fall. This is a function of individual human weakness and agency, not Church culture. Most, by the aid of the Spirit, continue to progress in the right direction and that is the culture. Including the “top” in that isn’t anything new, from my read of the ancient and modern scriptures.

 

The points you make about culture are actually scriptural teachings that have many layers of meaning (D&C 68:4; 1:30). I think you’re conflating uninspired belief affected by black-and-white thinking with the layered application of tehse scriptures that the Church actually promotes. making that kind of connection (scripture to culture to faith crisis) is like saying the Church cultivates “Cultural Mormons.” The Church culture is fundamentally scripture-guided, and not just by these two verses. Black-and white thinking interferes with what these things actually mean and how they play out, and by no means defines the broader Church culture that most people perceive and live in.

 

But even the effects of black-and-white thinking can be mollified by the Comforter. The local councils, home teachers, friends, etc. can help suffering individuals obtain that. They have the keys to do that if they would use them, taking individual agency into account.

[thesometimesaint]

Except, sometimes we do sort of have to follow some blindly like when they tell you to get on the Ark, or don't look back at certain cities, or go bath three times in a dirty river...that kind of stuff, which they don't seem to do much anymore.

 

I had to get dunked 7 times for my baptism to take.

[rockpond]

Of course we do—something sometimes gets lost in that third part. People get exposed to the “bad word,” choose it or allow their nurturing in it over the good word and fall. Some leverage a mistake into a moral offense, and the non-essential into the all-important, and fall. This is a function of individual human weakness and agency, not Church culture. Most, by the aid of the Spirit, continue to progress in the right direction and that is the culture. Including the “top” in that isn’t anything new, from my read of the ancient and modern scriptures.

 

The points you make about culture are actually scriptural teachings that have many layers of meaning (D&C 68:4; 1:30). I think you’re conflating uninspired belief affected by black-and-white thinking with the layered application of tehse scriptures that the Church actually promotes. making that kind of connection (scripture to culture to faith crisis) is like saying the Church cultivates “Cultural Mormons.” The Church culture is fundamentally scripture-guided, and not just by these two verses. Black-and white thinking interferes with what these things actually mean and how they play out, and by no means defines the broader Church culture that most people perceive and live in.

 

But even the effects of black-and-white thinking can be mollified by the Comforter. The local councils, home teachers, friends, etc. can help suffering individuals obtain that. They have the keys to do that if they would use them, taking individual agency into account.

 

I don't think it's right to take this approach of pushing it all down to the individual when we have created a culture where many members believe that when the apostles speak in conference it is to be taken as scripture.  And the local councils, home teachers, friends, etc cannot overcome that on their own with mixed messages coming from the top.

 

But I get your position: You don't think we need to change anything.  I think there is some wisdom in that, in sticking to the basics.  All I'm saying is that I think we need this current trend to continue... meaning we need to continue hearing the messages of fallibility (Holland, Uchtdorf) and focusing on the core of the gospel as doctrine (Christofferson).  I think as those themes continue to be spoken along with the similar messages coming from outside the leadership structure (Givens, Prince, Dehlin) it will begin to allow our councils to be more effective, members to seek the spirit more, and will ultimately slow/stop the bleeding.

[thesometimesaint]

I  think that correlation is a good faith effort by the Church to get everyone on the same page, so to speak. CAN it be overdone? Of course, but I've seen little to no evidence of that actually happening.

[CV75]

I don't think it's right to take this approach of pushing it all down to the individual when we have created a culture where many members believe that when the apostles speak in conference it is to be taken as scripture.  And the local councils, home teachers, friends, etc cannot overcome that on their own with mixed messages coming from the top.

 

But I get your position: You don't think we need to change anything.  I think there is some wisdom in that, in sticking to the basics.  All I'm saying is that I think we need this current trend to continue... meaning we need to continue hearing the messages of fallibility (Holland, Uchtdorf) and focusing on the core of the gospel as doctrine (Christofferson).  I think as those themes continue to be spoken along with the similar messages coming from outside the leadership structure (Givens, Prince, Dehlin) it will begin to allow our councils to be more effective, members to seek the spirit more, and will ultimately slow/stop the bleeding.

Remember, the very Atonement of Christ is “pushed down”--a poor term for characterizing the agency involved--to every individual.

 

You keep saying that “we” have created a detrimental culture that can only be corrected from “the top.” But the LDS culture is one of progress (change for the better), developed when the saints enjoy the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This helps the individuals, the councils, the rescues, the retention, etc.

 

Scripture is to be taken as scripture. How are the scriptures to be taken? “Translated correctly” by the guidance of the Spirit, whatever text is read or heard (D&C 33:16; 63:64; 71:1). See an example of the Lord countering black and white thinking in D&C 19:7-8. Where someone cannot do this, he can progress in his capacity, according to our culture. He receives the needed aided, according to our culture.

 

The messages of fallibility have been there all along since Joseph Smith, from the faithful and detractors alike, and therein lay the “meat” of discerning by the Spirit. I’m sure they will continue. Focusing on the core of the gospel goes without saying, and therein lays the “milk.”

[rockpond]

Remember, the very Atonement of Christ is “pushed down”--a poor term for characterizing the agency involved--to every individual.

 

You keep saying that “we” have created a detrimental culture that can only be corrected from “the top.” But the LDS culture is one of progress (change for the better), developed when the saints enjoy the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This helps the individuals, the councils, the rescues, the retention, etc.

 

Scripture is to be taken as scripture. How are the scriptures to be taken? “Translated correctly” by the guidance of the Spirit, whatever text is read or heard (D&C 33:16; 63:64; 71:1). See an example of the Lord countering black and white thinking in D&C 19:7-8. Where someone cannot do this, he can progress in his capacity, according to our culture. He receives the needed aided, according to our culture.

 

The messages of fallibility have been there all along since Joseph Smith, from the faithful and detractors alike, and therein lay the “meat” of discerning by the Spirit. I’m sure they will continue. Focusing on the core of the gospel goes without saying, and therein lays the “milk.”

 

So we agree then: The messages of leadership/apostolic fallibility need to continue and we need to encourage members to use the Spirit to discern what is and is not truth?

[CV75]

So we agree then: The messages of leadership/apostolic fallibility need to continue and we need to encourage members to use the Spirit to discern what is and is not truth?

Maybe. I would say the messages of leadership/apostolic fallibility continue (as they always have and will, since such messages are needed) and we encourage members to use the Spirit to discern what is and is not truth, as we always have and will; such encouragement is also needed.

[Stone holm]

I  think that correlation is a good faith effort by the Church to get everyone on the same page, so to speak. CAN it be overdone? Of course, but I've seen little to no evidence of that actually happening.

 

Well, I don't know sometimes it seems like everyone is not only on the same page, but also stuck on the same page...it doesn't bother me much, except my wife keeps elbowing me in Sunday School and won't let me fire up the iPad in Church...so I look upon it sort of as a prep period for an extended Sunday nap after Church.

[DBMormon]

Maybe. I would say the messages of leadership/apostolic fallibility continue (as they always have and will, since such messages are needed) and we encourage members to use the Spirit to discern what is and is not truth, as we always have and will; such encouragement is also needed.

You and I may pick up on it, but the message that :  "We do not need to follow prophets blindly, but rather use the Holy Ghost to know for ourselves when a Prophet is acting as a prophet" is rarely stated as such.  Instead we get

- follow the brethren

- follow the prophet

- follow the council of our leader

- General Conference is scripture that we need to conform to

- Prophet won't lead us astray

- Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same.

 

While the principles above are true they drown out the rare teaching that we are not follow them blindly but rather seek conformation through the spirit.  In my Ward anyway, the older "wiser" members disagree with me when I say we should not follow blindly and they specifically state we should.

[Denise]

Boils down to honesty and humility. And in the case of doctrine...I can't help wondering why the EXTREME mistakes of members and leaders wouldn't be addressed more often by Father through the prophet. We needed a restoration to correct the HUGE amount of error in the gospel! Why wait until so many have suffered, fallen and even died to keep the gospel reasonably correct? You can say that God "allows" us to make mistakes so we can learn. Granted, that's true. But it would be nice if the lessons and lectures weren't so filled with error to guarrantee mistakes before we even start.

[Stone holm]

Boils down to honesty and humility. And in the case of doctrine...I can't help wondering why the EXTREME mistakes of members and leaders wouldn't be addressed more often by Father through the prophet. We needed a restoration to correct the HUGE amount of error in the gospel! Why wait until so many have suffered, fallen and even died to keep the gospel reasonably correct? You can say that God "allows" us to make mistakes so we can learn. Granted, that's true. But it would be nice if the lessons and lectures weren't so filled with error to guarrantee mistakes before we even start.

 

Where would be the fun in that?

[CV75]

You and I may pick up on it, but the message that :  "We do not need to follow prophets blindly, but rather use the Holy Ghost to know for ourselves when a Prophet is acting as a prophet" is rarely stated as such.  Instead we get

- follow the brethren

- follow the prophet

- follow the council of our leader

- General Conference is scripture that we need to conform to

- Prophet won't lead us astray

- Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same.

 

While the principles above are true they drown out the rare teaching that we are not follow them blindly but rather seek conformation through the spirit.  In my Ward anyway, the older "wiser" members disagree with me when I say we should not follow blindly and they specifically state we should.

All these things you listed are true. They originated from, and are spoken to, people with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, who need not be so “blind” as to blindly interpret things on the dark side of black-and-white.

 

Given that there are many, many reasons for a saint to be "blind" despite his advantages and the advantages offered him, we simply have to help him “see.” Some of these reasons have to do with personality, ability, spirituality, tradition, and anything thing else we find compromised in our fallen world.

 

The companionship of the Holy Ghost need not be a rare occurrence (that is one reason He is called “thy constant companion”). He teaches us how to weigh the truth in such sayings as you listed. "Obey with exactness" is another one.

 

Regarding your example of the older members, add generational (youth as well as age!) and semiotic to the list of compromises people suffer, which just may contribute to a simple matter of communication. They could well mean to follow in faith, respect and loyalty as opposed to doubtingly or begrudgingly, or without picking and choosing for their own convenience. In a sense, if we need to be led by the Holy Ghost, we are indeed blind and need to blindly follow.

 

And they also just might be rattling your cage!

[Stone holm]

All these things you listed are true. They originated from, and are spoken to, people with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, who need not be so “blind” as to blindly interpret things on the dark side of black-and-white.

 

Given that there are many, many reasons for a saint to be "blind" despite his advantages and the advantages offered him, we simply have to help him “see.” Some of these reasons have to do with personality, ability, spirituality, tradition, and anything thing else we find compromised in our fallen world.

 

The companionship of the Holy Ghost need not be a rare occurrence (that is one reason He is called “thy constant companion”). He teaches us how to weigh the truth in such sayings as you listed. "Obey with exactness" is another one.

 

Regarding your example of the older members, add generational (youth as well as age!) and semiotic to the list of compromises people suffer, which just may contribute to a simple matter of communication. They could well mean to follow in faith, respect and loyalty as opposed to doubtingly or begrudgingly, or without picking and choosing for their own convenience. In a sense, if we need to be led by the Holy Ghost, we are indeed blind and need to blindly follow.

 

And they also just might be rattling your cage!

Maybe, but I think he is right, most Mormons get the impression that it's shut up and obey.

[CV75]

Maybe, but I think he is right, most Mormons get the impression that it's shut up and obey.

No, you only think "most Mormons get the impression that it's shut up and obey." He was talking about the older and wiser ones anyway.

[thesometimesaint]

Well, I don't know sometimes it seems like everyone is not only on the same page, but also stuck on the same page...it doesn't bother me much, except my wife keeps elbowing me in Sunday School and won't let me fire up the iPad in Church...so I look upon it sort of as a prep period for an extended Sunday nap after Church.

 

One of the joys of being a High Priest is I get to fall asleep in Sacrament Meeting while my wife is furiously taking notes.

[rockpond]

No, you only think "most Mormons get the impression that it's shut up and obey." He was talking about the older and wiser ones anyway.

 

Obviously, we lack the data to be able to say what "most Mormons" believe.  But, if you want to take a specific (rather innocuous) example, it's been my impression that most members believe that "no earrings for men, only one set for women, and no tattoos" is something that is not to be questioned.  It was something that President Hinckley counseled in general conference.  Does that make it scripture?  A commandment?  Does our average member feel that they have the freedom to pray about this for themselves and determine if they should follow his counsel?  My experience is "no".

[jkwilliams]

Obviously, we lack the data to be able to say what "most Mormons" believe.  But, if you want to take a specific (rather innocuous) example, it's been my impression that most members believe that "no earrings for men, only one set for women, and no tattoos" is something that is not to be questioned.  It was something that President Hinckley counseled in general conference.  Does that make it scripture?  A commandment?  Does our average member feel that they have the freedom to pray about this for themselves and determine if they should follow his counsel?  My experience is "no".

For a good example of a young Mormon who believes in "shut up and obey," see this letter to the editor in the BYU-Idaho newspaper.

http://s980.photobucket.com/user/rainwriter/media/ScannedDocument_zps8ae78026.jpg.html

Hopefully he'll eventually grow out of it.

[thesometimesaint]

Obviously, we lack the data to be able to say what "most Mormons" believe.  But, if you want to take a specific (rather innocuous) example, it's been my impression that most members believe that "no earrings for men, only one set for women, and no tattoos" is something that is not to be questioned.  It was something that President Hinckley counseled in general conference.  Does that make it scripture?  A commandment?  Does our average member feel that they have the freedom to pray about this for themselves and determine if they should follow his counsel?  My experience is "no".

 

I think we have to consider context here. The context is young men(and women) whom presumably are looking, and training, for that first "real" job. Most jobs in government and business require that you look and dress pretty conservatively. So if I was in that position. You bet I'd look and dress the part. Now that I'm old and retired I can look and dress pretty much as I want. That being said you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between me and my Bishop by how we look and dress.

Edited November 15, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Tacenda]

deleted, don't want to thread jack   

Edited November 15, 2013 by Tacenda

[canard78]

Bravo, DB,

A good list, but there are other lists along the same lines.

My question is: Do you realize that the volume is the well-intentioned effort of a canon lawyer?

Is there any real reason to speak ill of the dead in this case?  After all, the book is no longer in print.

Wouldn't it be better to simply allow this subject to die quietly?

Bob

 

Earlier in the thread the point had been made that MD was still quoted and a valid book of doctrine. I think DB's examples was a fair reminder to treat it (and books like it) with caution.

[canard78]

For a good example of a young Mormon who believes in "shut up and obey," see this letter to the editor in the BYU-Idaho newspaper.

http://s980.photobucket.com/user/rainwriter/media/ScannedDocument_zps8ae78026.jpg.html

Hopefully he'll eventually grow out of it.

 

Here's another one:

 

https://archive.org/stream/MeridianMagazineAreYouALiberalMormonMeridianMagazineLDSMormonAndLatterDaySaintNewsAndViews/Meridian-Magazine-Are-You-a-Liberal-Mormon-Meridian-Magazine-LDS-Mormon-and-Latter-day-Saint-News-and-Views#page/n0/mode/2up

[thesometimesaint]

Here's another one:

 

https://archive.org/stream/MeridianMagazineAreYouALiberalMormonMeridianMagazineLDSMormonAndLatterDaySaintNewsAndViews/Meridian-Magazine-Are-You-a-Liberal-Mormon-Meridian-Magazine-LDS-Mormon-and-Latter-day-Saint-News-and-Views#page/n0/mode/2up

 

You'll find the diehards in any group. But pretty soon most either leave or learn to keep their opinions to themselves.

[CV75]

Obviously, we lack the data to be able to say what "most Mormons" believe.  But, if you want to take a specific (rather innocuous) example, it's been my impression that most members believe that "no earrings for men, only one set for women, and no tattoos" is something that is not to be questioned.  It was something that President Hinckley counseled in general conference.  Does that make it scripture?  A commandment?  Does our average member feel that they have the freedom to pray about this for themselves and determine if they should follow his counsel?  My experience is "no".

Of course people differ in how they express their alignment with and interpretation of the several items listed on post #336 (and you haven’t responded to #334). Perhaps some seem to stumble because of the placing of their words, or because they are not mighty in speaking. Despite that, the phrase (“shut up and obey”) does seem to be polemic in reference to others and not to describe oneself.

 

Just as “we lack the data to be able to say what ‘most Mormons’ believe,” we lack the data to be able to say whether our average member feels that he has the freedom to pray about earrings. While I suspect this is in large part because the Lord deals with individuals’ agency and not averages, I suspect it is also because they don’t feel it important enough an issue to even pray over.

 

The Church and the Gospel are all about spiritual freedom. Some see other members through the constricting lens of their own false experience—if they see that most members feel they lack freedom, it is because they (themselves) feel they lack it. Now how would it happen that people using the Gift of the Holy Ghost feel they lack the freedom to pray about something, and how is it that someone who really doesn’t know choose to view others in such a light?

 

I don’t think the saints on the whole can be properly characterized as yoking and binding their psyches down under the power and authority of their leaders and kept in ignorance; unable to lift up their heads; or living in religious bondage, having been denied their rights and privileges to speak and act according to the dictates of their conscience. That’s’ what “shut up and obey” entails, right?