Science Gone Bad

[Stone holm]

I have been watching a documentary on the history of eugenics and it called to mind a comment which I thought was in BH Roberts apologetics regarding polygamy and creating a spiritually superior race, but after searching for it today could not find it. Does anybody know what the reaction of the Church to the eugenics movement in the early 20th century was?

[volgadon]

See comment #8

 

http://www.withoutend.org/st-patrick-persecution-complex/

 

“[The purpose of polygamy] was to give succeeding generations a superior fatherhood and motherhood, by enlarging the opportunities of men of high character, moral integrity, and spiritual development to become progenitors of the race. To give to women of like character and development a special opportunity to consecrate themselves to the high mission of motherhood. Race culture, then, was the inspiring motive of the plural wife feature of this revelation on marriage. It was in the name of a divinely ordained species of eugenics that the Latter-day Saints accepted plurality of wives.”

Roberts also said polygamy was instituted “that the day of the super-man might come.”

[Stone holm]

See comment #8

 

http://www.withoutend.org/st-patrick-persecution-complex/

 

“[The purpose of polygamy] was to give succeeding generations a superior fatherhood and motherhood, by enlarging the opportunities of men of high character, moral integrity, and spiritual development to become progenitors of the race. To give to women of like character and development a special opportunity to consecrate themselves to the high mission of motherhood. Race culture, then, was the inspiring motive of the plural wife feature of this revelation on marriage. It was in the name of a divinely ordained species of eugenics that the Latter-day Saints accepted plurality of wives.”

Roberts also said polygamy was instituted “that the day of the super-man might come.”

Where did he make the argument in the Comprehensive History of The Church, I couldn't find it. So were they influenced by eugenics? I once listened in a class when I visited a Ward down in New Orleans a visitor give a talk that the reason Mormon health statistics in Utah were so good was that all the weak died off during the Mormon trek west, which is basically an accelerated evolutionary argument with an un intended eugenics twist.

[volgadon]

Where did he make the argument in the Comprehensive History of The Church, I couldn't find it. So were they influenced by eugenics? I once listened in a class when I visited a Ward down in New Orleans a visitor give a talk that the reason Mormon health statistics in Utah were so good was that all the weak died off during the Mormon trek west, which is basically an accelerated evolutionary argument with an un intended eugenics twist.

 

 

It is in a different work. Here http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-divinely-ordered-species-of-eugenics/

[Stone holm]

It is in a different work. Here http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/a-divinely-ordered-species-of-eugenics/

I didn't know the actual term eugenics had been used, I had never read the article you posted, so I think it is in the Comprehensive History somewhere, but it does not have a good index. From what BY said from time to time, I got the impression that the early prophets frequently blurred the line between physical characteristics and spiritual characteristics. For example the comments that a pure racial gentile , if one came into the Church , would experience a somewhat violent physical makeover upon confirmation as The Holy Ghost would have to make physical changes in the convert.

[thesometimesaint]

I didn't know the actual term eugenics had been used, I had never read the article you posted, so I think it is in the Comprehensive History somewhere, but it does not have a good index. From what BY said from time to time, I got the impression that the early prophets frequently blurred the line between physical characteristics and spiritual characteristics. For example the comments that a pure racial gentile , if one came into the Church , would experience a somewhat violent physical makeover upon confirmation as The Holy Ghost would have to make physical changes in the convert.

 

Though hybridization man has been selectively breedding not only other plants and animals but himself fo 10's of thousands of years. The eugenetic movement started in the last half of the 19th Century, saw it applied to sociological factors such as race, creed, color, sex, national origin, education, wealth distribution, religion, and morals. None of which is directly impacted by genetics.

 

Ps. Science is neither good nor bad, just the purposes it is applied to.

Edited October 20, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

Though hybridization man has been selectively breedding not only other plants and animals but himself fo 10's of thousands of years. The eugenetic movement started in the last half of the 19th Century, saw it applied to sociological factors such as race, creed, color, sex, national origin, education, wealth distribution, religion, and morals. None of which is directly impacted by genetics.

 

Ps. Science is neither good nor bad, just the purposes it is applied to.

Perhaps, but it believe in this case it was bad science. Science without the restraint of humanism can turn as ugly as religion without the restraint of humanism. Both lack Charity and become ruthless in their quest to attain certain goals. That is why the welding political power to either becomes so scary. It is why the Nazi doctors and the Inquisition were equally horrid.

[JLHPROF]

I have been watching a documentary on the history of eugenics and it called to mind a comment which I thought was in BH Roberts apologetics regarding polygamy and creating a spiritually superior race, but after searching for it today could not find it

 

Not trying to derail this science thread, but this comment brought a couple of quotes to mind:

Brigham Young

"There is no true philosopher on the face of the earth but what will admit that such a system, properly carried out according to the order of heaven, is far superior to monogamy for the raising of healthy, robust children! A person possessing a moderate knowledge of physiology, or who has paid attention to his own nature and the nature of the gentler sex, can readily understand this."  JoD 13:317

George Q. Cannon

"There are no brighter children to be found in the world than those born in this Territory. Under the system of Patriarchal Marriage, the offspring, besides being equally as bright and brighter intellectually, are much more healthy and strong."  JoD 13:207

 

Not exactly eugenics, but interesting perspective nonetheless similar to the BH Roberts quote.

[thesometimesaint]

We're not yet, if we will ever be, to the point of learning from those atrocities. But the science when used correctly has been of great benefit to mankind. The same science that gave us the V2. Also gave us twelve men on the moon.

[thesometimesaint]

Not trying to derail this science thread, but this comment brought a couple of quotes to mind:

Brigham Young

"There is no true philosopher on the face of the earth but what will admit that such a system, properly carried out according to the order of heaven, is far superior to monogamy for the raising of healthy, robust children! A person possessing a moderate knowledge of physiology, or who has paid attention to his own nature and the nature of the gentler sex, can readily understand this."  JoD 13:317

George Q. Cannon

"There are no brighter children to be found in the world than those born in this Territory. Under the system of Patriarchal Marriage, the offspring, besides being equally as bright and brighter intellectually, are much more healthy and strong."  JoD 13:207

 

Not exactly eugenics, but interesting perspective nonetheless similar to the BH Roberts quote.

 

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/chamb169/myblog/2011/10/dumber-by-the-dozen.html

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11413873

Edited October 20, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

We're not yet, if we will ever be, to the point of learning from those atrocities. But the science when used correctly has been of great benefit to mankind. The same science that gave us the V2. Also gave us twelve men on the moon.

I don't question that, it just appears that it is possible to really go off the rails and we need to always bear that in mind. Werner Von Braun was involved in both the V2 and putting men on the moon ... Thanks to Operation Paperclip sanitizing his ware cords.

[thesometimesaint]

I actually met Dr. Von Braun, and my dad worked closely with him. I don't believe that Dr. Von Braun, he was an arrogant son of a gun, ever actually agreed with the NAZIs. He was just soley into rocketry. It was his consuming passion.

 

Politics (especially Cold War politics) makes for very strange bedfellows.

[Stone holm]

I actually met Dr. Von Braun, and my dad worked closely with him. I don't believe that Dr. Von Braun, he was an arrogant son of a gun, ever actually agreed with the NAZIs. He was just soley into rocketry. It was his consuming passion.

 

Politics (especially Cold War politics) makes for very strange bedfellows.

Possibly, but his records were sanitized. There was a race by the victors to see who could collect the best of Germany's scientists at the end of the war, we had a slight advantage since we had collected their Jewish scientists early on. The point is whether science produces good or evil sometimes depends on the society in which it is operating. Right now science is playing games with the building blocks of life while we are obsessed with discussing whether Jack and Phil should be allowed to marry. We are distracted by relatively trivial things rather than discussing the implication of scientific technology and processes which could alter life as we know it and possibly not for the better.

[rpn]

Eugenics was big in the US  before WWII.

[Stone holm]

Eugenics was big in the US  before WWII.

Correct, so was anti semitism.

[thesometimesaint]

Possibly, but his records were sanitized. There was a race by the victors to see who could collect the best of Germany's scientists at the end of the war, we had a slight advantage since we had collected their Jewish scientists early on. The point is whether science produces good or evil sometimes depends on the society in which it is operating. Right now science is playing games with the building blocks of life while we are obsessed with discussing whether Jack and Phil should be allowed to marry. We are distracted by relatively trivial things rather than discussing the implication of scientific technology and processes which could alter life as we know it and possibly not for the better.

The Germans probably would have won that war if instead of killing the Jews, they should have used them as part of their war machine.

 

I see us "playing with the building blocks of life" as basically a good thing. Who wouldn't want to eliminate Tay Sachs disease if they could? There still is much, pain, suffering, illness, sickness, and disease to cure in this old world.

 

Personally I oppose Jack and Phil getting married, but can think of no legally justifiable way to prevent it.

 

As with any technology it can be used for good, and/or evil. The goodness or evilness of it isn't in the science, but the uses it is put to. IE; The same science that gave us the Atomic Bomb also gave us nuclear medicine, including the X-ray machine we use to "see" broken bones.

Edited October 21, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

The Germans probably would have won that war if instead of killing the Jews, they should have used them as part of their war machine.

 

I see us "playing with the building blocks of life" as basically a good thing. Who wouldn't want to eliminate Tay Sachs disease if they could? There still is much, pain, suffering, illness, sickness, and disease to cure in this old world.

 

Personally I oppose Jack and Phil getting married, but can think of no legally justifiable way to prevent it.

 

As with any technology it can be used for good, and/or evil. The goodness or evilness of it isn't in the science, but the uses it is put to. IE; The same science that gave us the Atomic Bomb also gave us nuclear medicine, including the X-ray machine we use to "see" broken bones.

 

 

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that -- except the potential to go off the rails is immense giving the transfer of genes in agricultural products, and the potential for designer babies.  I remember seeing a book which came out -- oh say a decade or so ago -- which I leafed through.  It was discussing the trade off of permanently eliminating certain mental illness as also eliminating the type of minds which created our greatest poets and out of the box thinkers.

[thesometimesaint]

There is a fine line between genius and insanity. But once that line has been crossed it is pretty hard to ignore. Who knows what all goes into making a great doctor, lawyer, indian chief? I sure don't. Often it is our response to our trials that shape the type of person we are. I am not asking for a world without trials, just a solution for more of the more dangerous ones.

[Stone holm]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that -- except the potential to go off the rails is immense giving the transfer of genes in agricultural products, and the potential for designer babies.  I remember seeing a book which came out -- oh say a decade or so ago -- which I leafed through.  It was discussing the trade off of permanently eliminating certain mental illness as also eliminating the type of minds which created our greatest poets and out of the box thinkers.

 

Thought I better clarify that.  I would have had a problem with the Germans winning that war -- I was referring to gene therapy.  Germany remains an enigma to me, although I have always married women of German descent.  Their quest for order makes them great scientists, but lousy social designers.

[strappinglad]

The problem is that we already have the solutions to many of the world's diseases. The price of a couple of F18s could go a long way to eliminating childhood blindness, for example, but do we expend the effort? No! The millions of babies that die in 3rd world countries because they are not kept WARM enough in the first weeks of life could be saved if we were to cut back on a few purchases of the latest i-toy . I wonder why we don't. Could it be classism?, racism?, greed?, pride? Our science always outstrips our moral strength to cope with the change.

[thesometimesaint]

Thought I better clarify that.  I would have had a problem with the Germans winning that war -- I was referring to gene therapy.  Germany remains an enigma to me, although I have always married women of German descent.  Their quest for order makes them great scientists, but lousy social designers.

 

While not a Jew, I wouldn't have lasted very long in NAZI Germany. Too much of a contrarian to please the Fuhrer. Plus they did shoot rockets, and bullets at my mom and dad. Gene therapy offers great potential to cure a host of diseases but we must be carefull not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

[Stone holm]

The problem is that we already have the solutions to many of the world's diseases. The price of a couple of F18s could go a long way to eliminating childhood blindness, for example, but do we expend the effort? No! The millions of babies that die in 3rd world countries because they are not kept WARM enough in the first weeks of life could be saved if we were to cut back on a few purchases of the latest i-toy . I wonder why we don't. Could it be classism?, racism?, greed?, pride? Our science always outstrips our moral strength to cope with the change.

 A lot of it has to do with our moral outrage being funneled towards sexual issues -- its like Christ threw the first stone at the adultress and clapped the moneychangers on the back.  Given that religion is expected to be a major force in morality, the biggest threat right now is the total distraction of religion with sexual issues.

[thesometimesaint]

I think there is more than one way to literally and figuatively "screw" your neighbor. None of which God or his Church approves of.

[Stone holm]

I think there is more than one way to literally and figuatively "screw" your neighbor. None of which God or his Church approves of.

Ah, but its nothing personal, it's just business....

[BCSpace]

Does anybody know what the reaction of the Church to the eugenics movement in the early 20th century was?

 

It would be interesting to see the Church's earliest views on abortion as the abortion and eugenics movements of the early 20th century went hand in hand.