Science Gone Bad

[Stone holm]

It would be interesting to see the Church's earliest views on abortion as the abortion and eugenics movements of the early 20th century went hand in hand.

Never heard that linkage, I have always heard American linkage being to sterilization. They literally drove the Abenaqui underground in Vermont with the threat of sterilization.

[BCSpace]

It would be interesting to see the Church's earliest views on abortion as the abortion and eugenics movements of the early 20th century went hand in hand.

Never heard that linkage

 

You've not studied much on that period then.

[Stone holm]

You've not studied much on that period then.

No, you are right my MA pretty much stopped with Teddy, didn't really study eugenics, but became interested in it because of Coolidge endorsing it in VT. Don't recall him endorsing abortion, just sterilization which is more of a permanent thing if you are trying to eliminate a race from the gene pool which is what most were trying to do. I believe the Church was not into that, but rather approached it more like livestock breeding by focusing on what they considered the best males.

[ERayR]

Ah, but its nothing personal, it's just business....

 

Or, "It's perfectly legal".

[thesometimesaint]

Ah, but its nothing personal, it's just business....

 

But we are in the business of saving the person.

[thesometimesaint]

You've not studied much on that period then.

 

Both have been around for a very long time. It has only been in relatively recent times that they have been made illegal.

[Stone holm]

Both have been around for a very long time. It has only been in relatively recent times that they have been made illegal.

Have you heard of "an abortion movement" ? I have heard of an anti abortion movement, but not an abortion movement. Not sure how abortion linked with eugenics? Have been studying a little on eugenics and given amniocentesis is a relatively recent development, am seeing problems with such a linkage. However I can see how thinking of righteousness being considered a physically linked trait could morph with Lamarckian genetics and wind up showing up in turn of the century apologetics.

[thesometimesaint]

Have you heard of "an abortion movement" ? I have heard of an anti abortion movement, but not an abortion movement. Not sure how abortion linked with eugenics? Have been studying a little on eugenics and given amniocentesis is a relatively recent development, am seeing problems with such a linkage. However I can see how thinking of righteousness being considered a physically linked trait could morph with Lamarckian genetics and wind up showing up in turn of the century apologetics.

 

There has always been a few pro-abortion movement type people. But they have never been more than very fringe and very small in number.

TTBOMK they are not linked. Amniocentesis can be used as a justification for abortion. I wouldn't say it was a big factor. It just gives the prospective parents the choice. Now-a-days they can even do heart surgery on a baby yet to be born. LDS doctrine is that if the baby once born is incapable of life outside the womb then abortion is justifiable. One way to determine if the baby can not live outside the womb is through amniocentesis.

Edited October 23, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

There has always been a few pro-abortion movement type people. But they have never been more than very fringe and very small in number.

TTBOMK they are not linked. Amniocentesis can be used as a justification for abortion. I wouldn't say it was a big factor. It just gives the prospective parents the choice. Now-a-days they can even do heart surgery on a baby yet to be born. LDS doctrine is that if the baby once born is incapable of life outside the womb then abortion is justifiable. One way to determine if the baby can not live outside the womb is through amniocentesis.

 

I was just trying to make some sense of BCSpace's comment without being rude.  The only linkage that i can think of between eugenics and abortion would be through amniocentesis which is sometimes performed to determine if there are severe birthdefects impending.  Eugenics was from what I understood usually used in two ways -- either to permanently preventing persons from transmitting genes through either sterilization or execution, or through controlling who married who.  The Germans implemented, or tried to implement, both forms.  As for the Church, I believe it was primarily limited to keeping the races segregated and through heavily emphasizing marriage within the Church.  The latter, however, could be justified on other grounds.  However, there does appear to have been some use of eugenic arguments proffered by turn of the century Mormon apologists like B.H. Roberts.  Although my graduate studies in American Studies covered a portion of the very beginning of that period, my focus tended to be more on the Temperance movements.

[thesometimesaint]

I'll let BCSpace speak for himself. There is no excuse to ever be rude. But that doesn't mean we can't ask for clarrification if we don't understand. I don't see a linkage, more of a casual association because of overlapping time frames, and the horrendous example of the NAZIs. As we say in Social Work correlation is not causation.

[Stone holm]

I'll let BCSpace speak for himself. There is no excuse to ever be rude. But that doesn't mean we can't ask for clarrification if we don't understand. I don't see a linkage, more of a casual association because of overlapping time frames, and the horrendous example of the NAZIs. As we say in Social Work correlation is not causation.

 

Yes, well I try to see whether there is some truth to allegations of the existence of movements and agendas...which somehow seem to be mentioned as bogeymen from time to time.  I think in eugenics we do see science taking a walk over the cliff more so than about anything else I can think of.  We see a lot of anti-science rhetoric and a lot of faux science nowadays....but there was in fact a period when science really went off the rails in the first half of the 20th Century.  WWII seems to have brought people back more to their collective senses.

[Stargazer]

While not a Jew, I wouldn't have lasted very long in NAZI Germany. Too much of a contrarian to please the Fuhrer. Plus they did shoot rockets, and bullets at my mom and dad. Gene therapy offers great potential to cure a host of diseases but we must be carefull not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

 

On my mission we taught a woman a few discussions, and this being back in 1972, she was in her 50s and remembered the war.  She told us that she almost got into serious trouble while at work in the office and the word came of the abortive attempt to assassinate Hitler.  The office leader came in and announced with some sadness that there had been an assassination attempt on Der Fuehrer and she asked hopefully, "Did they get him?" with a little too much enthusiasm.  And a few months later she was supposed to be transferred to work in an ammo factory, and she wasn't about to help the war effort, so she put on a bunch of clothes and walked uphill to the doctor's office for the physical exam.  By the time she got there she was wheezing so bad the doctor signed her off as unsuitable for the work.  She was a contrarian, yes, and she had to be quiet about it (it helped that she was a woman).

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm having trouble finding 1 wife.

[Stone holm]

I'm having trouble finding 1 wife.

Yeah they can be easy to misplace , it gets harder with age especially in big stores.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Yeah they can be easy to misplace , it gets harder with age especially in big stores.

I can't find the wife aisle.

[Stargazer]

I'm having trouble finding 1 wife.

 

I've found two in my life.  The first one didn't work out very well. 

 

It's not hard, VGV.  Just got to have reasonable standards.  My first criterion is she must be sane.  After that, it's all good.

[Stone holm]

I can't find the wife aisle.

Just head for the blue light specials

[thesometimesaint]

On my mission we taught a woman a few discussions, and this being back in 1972, she was in her 50s and remembered the war.  She told us that she almost got into serious trouble while at work in the office and the word came of the abortive attempt to assassinate Hitler.  The office leader came in and announced with some sadness that there had been an assassination attempt on Der Fuehrer and she asked hopefully, "Did they get him?" with a little too much enthusiasm.  And a few months later she was supposed to be transferred to work in an ammo factory, and she wasn't about to help the war effort, so she put on a bunch of clothes and walked uphill to the doctor's office for the physical exam.  By the time she got there she was wheezing so bad the doctor signed her off as unsuitable for the work.  She was a contrarian, yes, and she had to be quiet about it (it helped that she was a woman).

 

Sounds like a very wise woman to me.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, well I try to see whether there is some truth to allegations of the existence of movements and agendas...which somehow seem to be mentioned as bogeymen from time to time.  I think in eugenics we do see science taking a walk over the cliff more so than about anything else I can think of.  We see a lot of anti-science rhetoric and a lot of faux science nowadays....but there was in fact a period when science really went off the rails in the first half of the 20th Century.  WWII seems to have brought people back more to their collective senses.

 

I don't see it as the fault of science, but the fault of those whom misemploy it. Science like money is never moral or immoral. It is amoral. Just the purposes it is put to are.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I've found two in my life.  The first one didn't work out very well. 

 

It's not hard, VGV.  Just got to have reasonable standards.  My first criterion is she must be sane.  After that, it's all good.

Yes, I want a sane wife and a sweet wife.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Just head for the blue light specials

Found the aisle! It's called Utah!

[Stone holm]

I don't see it as the fault of science, but the fault of those whom misemploy it. Science like money is never moral or immoral. It is amoral. Just the purposes it is put to are.

True. But during that period evil things were done in the name of science, today they are more likely to be done in the name of religion or morality.

[thesometimesaint]

True. But during that period evil things were done in the name of science, today they are more likely to be done in the name of religion or morality.

 

It matters little to me what someone uses to make life more difficult for us. Whether it is science, religion, or their morality(Lack there of); prick us do we not bleed; hit us do we not hurt; steal from us do we not go without? Do not unto others as you would not have them do unto you.

Edited October 27, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[The Nehor]

I don't see it as the fault of science, but the fault of those whom misemploy it. Science like money is never moral or immoral. It is amoral. Just the purposes it is put to are.

 

I take the Aperture Science Lab approach to science. If it does not cause pain and death it is probably not real science.

[Stone holm]

I take the Aperture Science Lab approach to science. If it does not cause pain and death it is probably not real science.

That reminds me of the comment my son once brought back from BYU , "if the area of study has the word science in it, it's not real science."