Microscopic, Play By Play, Analysis Of The Conference.

[EllenMaksoud]

The ability to critique every part of the conference in detail is beyond me. It did seem clear that SSM will not be part of the LDS church in the foreseeable future. I'm glad that is off the table.

 

I did hear one of the speakers voice some awareness of the fact that there are genetic issues which cause some of us a great deal of discomfort.  One of the speakers aroused feelings of rebellion in me but having used rebellion as a survival tool most of my life, those feelings were quickly sent off to graze in the back pasture.

 

It is comforting to me that so far when the GA takes a stand, it does not quickly devolve into a bloody witch hunt as with organizations whose tender mercies in my past were experienced with a great deal of grief.

[EllenMaksoud]

End times. At conference I think I came about to the idea that I do not think I believe in End Times any more. I think perhaps we are going to be left here to deal with the consequences of our own behavior. Perhaps out of the wreckage of our future then Heavenly father will intevene?

[TAO]

From what I have heard, the Millennium doesn't actually have a perfect date except in the mind of God.  We have to work to prepare the Earth for the millennium, and then he will come =).  So I guess you are right, the end times will last as long as they do.

[rockpond]

It did seem clear that SSM will not be part of the LDS church in the foreseeable future. I'm glad that is off the table.

 

This makes me sad, as a faithful member of the church, to read statements like this.

 

Yes, I realize that Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson taught that SSM is wrong.

 

But do we really need to be "be glad" about it?

 

Oaks' & Nelson's talks brought a lot of pain to a lot of people.  There are many members with SSA who are struggling.  I don't want to be coddled with something other than truth but I don't think we need to celebrate the continued celibacy of our gay & lesbian brothers & sisters.

[EllenMaksoud]

This makes me sad, as a faithful member of the church, to read statements like this.

 

Yes, I realize that Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson taught that SSM is wrong.

 

But do we really need to be "be glad" about it?

 

Oaks' & Nelson's talks brought a lot of pain to a lot of people.  There are many members with SSA who are struggling.  I don't want to be coddled with something other than truth but I don't think we need to celebrate the continued celibacy of our gay & lesbian brothers & sisters.

I am not happy of the suffering of others, so do not take my words out of context. However, in my view there are certain people who keep pushing this issue because of feelings.  I want the science to prove these issues. If it is shown that being Gay, Lesbian or any number of other things is genetic or something, then no one in the church can deny them full privileges.

 

This is sort of a worn out illustration, but it was once thought that Leprosy (Hansen's Disease) was due to being unclean or sinful. Imagine what those victims suffered. Now we know that it is a fungal daises and entirely arrestable.

[ksfisher]

This makes me sad, as a faithful member of the church, to read statements like this.

 

Yes, I realize that Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson taught that SSM is wrong.

 

But do we really need to be "be glad" about it?

 

Oaks' & Nelson's talks brought a lot of pain to a lot of people.  There are many members with SSA who are struggling.  I don't want to be coddled with something other than truth but I don't think we need to celebrate the continued celibacy of our gay & lesbian brothers & sisters.

Perhaps, instead, we can celebrate their continued determination to keep their covenants and support them in doing so.

[rockpond]

Perhaps, instead, we can celebrate their continued determination to keep their covenants and support them in doing so.

I do.

But you don't need the "instead" in there.

[rockpond]

I am not happy of the suffering of others, so do not take my words out of context. However, in my view there are certain people who keep pushing this issue because of feelings. I want the science to prove these issues. If it is shown that being Gay, Lesbian or any number of other things is genetic or something, then no one in the church can deny them full privileges.

This is sort of a worn out illustration, but it was once thought that Leprosy (Hansen's Disease) was due to being unclean or sinful. Imagine what those victims suffered. Now we know that it is a fungal daises and entirely arrestable.

Fair enough. Agreed.

[Stargazer]

 

 

It did seem clear that SSM will not be part of the LDS church in the foreseeable future. I'm glad that is off the table.

 

This makes me sad, as a faithful member of the church, to read statements like this.

 

I makes me, as a faithful member of the church, sad to read that this makes you sad.  Here is something which has been an important principle since before even the Law of Moses was given, and I absolutely cannot understand how you cannot reconcile yourself to the clearly inalterable fact that homosexuality, let alone SSM, is "off the table".  It has never, ever been anything other than an abomination before the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; there has never, ever been any softening of this from the Book of Genesis on down.  I am afraid that you will find this to be just as unalterable as the prohibition against murder, or any other provision of the Decalogue, for that matter.  The day that the LDS church makes a provision for homosexuality as an acceptable principle in any way shape or form will be the day that we will be able to say the Church itself has apostatized.

 

Yes, I realize that Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson taught that SSM is wrong.

 

But do we really need to be "be glad" about it?

 

Yes.  You better be glad, because the moment it changes the Church changes, and not in a good way.  On that day, you might as well join the Unitarian Universalist Church, because it will be just as valid before God, and they won't expect you to keep the World of Wisdom, either.

 

Oaks' & Nelson's talks brought a lot of pain to a lot of people.  There are many members with SSA who are struggling.  I don't want to be coddled with something other than truth but I don't think we need to celebrate the continued celibacy of our gay & lesbian brothers & sisters.

 

Every time I have talked to my son about his continuing to refuse to marry his girlfriend he has lived with for 7 years it has caused him pain.  Every time I have suggested to my other son that he might want to give up alcohol and tobacco because they are ruining his health, it has caused him pain.  My youngest son has an emotional disorder and will probably never marry, or even have a girlfriend for the rest of his life, and that is going to cause him pain.  My daughter had a baby which died at age 3 months from crib death, and though it is unlikely that this will happen to her again, she is too afraid to get pregnant again, and this causes her great pain.

 

My wife has cancer and may die within the year, and if she does, God forbid, I plan to not remarry; I will have to continue in celibacy from that point forward, and I might live another 30 years.  Will this cause me pain?  Probably will.  And I will just have to deal with it.

 

When I was a hard-bitten sergeant in the Army I had a young, obstreperous subordinate named Fox in one unit I was in charge of, and if I made the mistake of couching orders in less-than-imperative form I got push-back.  "Fox, I want you to go get the jeep."  Response: "Well, Sergeant Clark, people in Hell want ice-water."

 

And so, that's what I say about this.  People in Hell want ice-water.

 

Maybe I am being insensitive.  In fact, I know I am.  I do have a great deal of sympathy for those who have this problem.  But God doesn't seem to be in the habit of soft-peddling the most important rules and expectations which He has put into place from the beginning.  But Man sure expects it. 

Edited October 8, 2013 by Stargazer

[Calm]

My youngest son has an emotional disorder and will probably never marry, or even have a girlfriend for the rest of his life, and that is going to cause him pain.  

 

How old is he?  Maybe we should try to see if my daughter with severe social anxiety and him hit it off?

[Stargazer]

I am not happy of the suffering of others, so do not take my words out of context. However, in my view there are certain people who keep pushing this issue because of feelings.  I want the science to prove these issues. If it is shown that being Gay, Lesbian or any number of other things is genetic or something, then no one in the church can deny them full privileges.

 

Sadly, I don't agree.  If their SSA is genetic and unalterable in this life, then God cannot in justice hold them responsible for not getting married and having children (as you may remember there is a commandment to be fruitful and multiply).  But if they are faithful to their covenants -- and for someone with SSA who cannot marry a member of the opposite sex, this would mean lifelong celibacy -- then in the eternities all will be restored to them which was denied in this life, including exaltation.  And an eternal companion.

 

This is sort of a worn out illustration, but it was once thought that Leprosy (Hansen's Disease) was due to being unclean or sinful. Imagine what those victims suffered. Now we know that it is a fungal daises and entirely arrestable.

 

This doesn't work, I am sorry to say.  Someone with leprosy was considered unclean, but folklore as to how they got it aside, it was until the modern era actually incurable, and victims were frequently required to be isolated in leper colonies, and this because it was a communicable disease.  Just like smallpox; just like tuberculosis.  I am at a loss to understand how this could serve as any kind of example of how to treat those who suffer from SSA.

[EllenMaksoud]

 

I am not happy of the suffering of others, so do not take my words out of context. However, in my view there are certain people who keep pushing this issue because of feelings.  I want the science to prove these issues. If it is shown that being Gay, Lesbian or any number of other things is genetic or something, then no one in the church can deny them full privileges.

 

Sadly, I don't agree.  If their SSA is genetic and unalterable in this life, then God cannot in justice hold them responsible for not getting married and having children (as you may remember there is a commandment to be fruitful and multiply).  But if they are faithful to their covenants -- and for someone with SSA who cannot marry a member of the opposite sex, this would mean lifelong celibacy -- then in the eternities all will be restored to them which was denied in this life, including exaltation.  And an eternal companion.

 

This is sort of a worn out illustration, but it was once thought that Leprosy (Hansen's Disease) was due to being unclean or sinful. Imagine what those victims suffered. Now we know that it is a fungal daises and entirely arrestable.

 

This doesn't work, I am sorry to say.  Someone with leprosy was considered unclean, but folklore as to how they got it aside, it was until the modern era actually incurable, and victims were frequently required to be isolated in leper colonies, and this because it was a communicable disease.  Just like smallpox; just like tuberculosis.  I am at a loss to understand how this could serve as any kind of example of how to treat those who suffer from SSA.

 

I suppose we will disagree.

[Stargazer]

How old is he?  Maybe we should try to see if my daughter with severe social anxiety and him hit it off?

 

I am not sure if you are joking or not...

 

In any case, he is 31.  Because of the difficulty we have had getting him to recognize that he has a problem and see a psychiatrist about it, I cannot be entirely certain what the problem is, but my money is on paranoid personality disorder.  I am not sure that someone with severe social anxiety would do well with a paranoid.  It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[Stargazer]

I suppose we will disagree.

 

Yes, we may have to agree to disagree, but you might say I have a mental block when it comes to expectations that some men have which require God to excuse the breaking of fundamental commandments, just because it would be more convenient to do so. 

 

I suppose I am just a curmudgeon.

[ksfisher]

I do.

But you don't need the "instead" in there.

Didn't mean anything by it.

[Calm]

I am not sure if you are joking or not...

 

In any case, he is 31.  Because of the difficulty we have had getting him to recognize that he has a problem and see a psychiatrist about it, I cannot be entirely certain what the problem is, but my money is on paranoid personality disorder.  I am not sure that someone with severe social anxiety would do well with a paranoid.  It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Indeed it would...was joking, the last thing someone homebound needs is someone else in the same spot...

[danieldemol]

I am not happy of the suffering of others, so do not take my words out of context. However, in my view there are certain people who keep pushing this issue because of feelings. I want the science to prove these issues. If it is shown that being Gay, Lesbian or any number of other things is genetic or something, then no one in the church can deny them full privileges.

It is not "genetic", but rather "epi-genetic". I don't know if I can post a link until I have 25 posts in, but if it is possible then let me know and I'll post a link outlining the difference, and the scientific research.

[EllenMaksoud]

Yes, we may have to agree to disagree, but you might say I have a mental block when it comes to expectations that some men have which require God to excuse the breaking of fundamental commandments, just because it would be more convenient to do so. 

 

I suppose I am just a curmudgeon.

Well, I respect you as an educated man. If you look back through human history at people like Copernicus, Galileo, John on the Isle of Patmos, Martin Luther, Wycliffe and others, they all had ideas that were not believed at the time. Many died because of their ideas. Humans are blood thirsty predators, the most successful on earth.

 

I obey the covenants but I will never see the blessings that born Mormons will, at least not in this life. There are lots of us like that.

 

I am very willing to wait these issues out. I am old and will not have to spend my life suffering with these things. It is fine to hold to the Iron Rod, just lets not get hateful and condemning.

 

Last week, I was informed by my son that I am crazy. That is painful to hear. Knowing him, he will eventually try to take my rights. That is pain.

[EllenMaksoud]

It is not "genetic", but rather "epi-genetic". I don't know if I can post a link until I have 25 posts in, but if it is possible then let me know and I'll post a link outlining the difference, and the scientific research.

I can wait. I don't know that much science on these issues. I just know that Heavenly Father says I am to be loving to others.

[danieldemol]

http://www.nimbios.org/press/FS_homosexuality

[canard78]

Yes. You better be glad, because the moment it changes the Church changes, and not in a good way. On that day, you might as well join the Unitarian Universalist Church, because it will be just as valid before God, and they won't expect you to keep the World of Wisdom, either.

So the most precious distinction that the fullness of the gospel brings is our rejection of SSM and non-consumption of certain substances?

That's a pretty vacuous fullness.

I have to remind myself that Mormonism is a broad tent. As far as it has extended to offer me inclusion, it seems to have have stretched in the other direction to allow room for your attitudes too.

[danieldemol]

http://www.nimbios.org/press/FS_homosexuality

This article is on the page of the "National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis"

[rockpond]

It did seem clear that SSM will not be part of the LDS church in the foreseeable future. I'm glad that is off the table.

This makes me sad, as a faithful member of the church, to read statements like this.

I makes me, as a faithful member of the church, sad to read that this makes you sad. Here is something which has been an important principle since before even the Law of Moses was given, and I absolutely cannot understand how you cannot reconcile yourself to the clearly inalterable fact that homosexuality, let alone SSM, is "off the table". It has never, ever been anything other than an abomination before the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; there has never, ever been any softening of this from the Book of Genesis on down. I am afraid that you will find this to be just as unalterable as the prohibition against murder, or any other provision of the Decalogue, for that matter. The day that the LDS church makes a provision for homosexuality as an acceptable principle in any way shape or form will be the day that we will be able to say the Church itself has apostatized.

Yes, I realize that Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson taught that SSM is wrong.

But do we really need to be "be glad" about it?

Yes. You better be glad, because the moment it changes the Church changes, and not in a good way. On that day, you might as well join the Unitarian Universalist Church, because it will be just as valid before God, and they won't expect you to keep the World of Wisdom, either.

Oaks' & Nelson's talks brought a lot of pain to a lot of people. There are many members with SSA who are struggling. I don't want to be coddled with something other than truth but I don't think we need to celebrate the continued celibacy of our gay & lesbian brothers & sisters.

Every time I have talked to my son about his continuing to refuse to marry his girlfriend he has lived with for 7 years it has caused him pain. Every time I have suggested to my other son that he might want to give up alcohol and tobacco because they are ruining his health, it has caused him pain. My youngest son has an emotional disorder and will probably never marry, or even have a girlfriend for the rest of his life, and that is going to cause him pain. My daughter had a baby which died at age 3 months from crib death, and though it is unlikely that this will happen to her again, she is too afraid to get pregnant again, and this causes her great pain.

My wife has cancer and may die within the year, and if she does, God forbid, I plan to not remarry; I will have to continue in celibacy from that point forward, and I might live another 30 years. Will this cause me pain? Probably will. And I will just have to deal with it.

When I was a hard-bitten sergeant in the Army I had a young, obstreperous subordinate named Fox in one unit I was in charge of, and if I made the mistake of couching orders in less-than-imperative form I got push-back. "Fox, I want you to go get the jeep." Response: "Well, Sergeant Clark, people in Hell want ice-water."

And so, that's what I say about this. People in Hell want ice-water.

Maybe I am being insensitive. In fact, I know I am. I do have a great deal of sympathy for those who have this problem. But God doesn't seem to be in the habit of soft-peddling the most important rules and expectations which He has put into place from the beginning. But Man sure expects it.

Once you compare homosexual orientation to a desire for alcohol, you're off my radar.

CFR that SSM is addressed in the Old Testament. Or anywhere in the Bible. Homosexual fornication, yes. But loving committed same gender relationships aren't there. Unless you consider Jonathan and David and that doesn't appear to be a condemnation.

[danieldemol]

Once you compare homosexual orientation to a desire for alcohol, you're off my radar. CFR that SSM is addressed in the Old Testament. Or anywhere in the Bible. Homosexual fornication, yes. But loving committed same gender relationships aren't there. Unless you consider Jonathan and David and that doesn't appear to be a condemnation.

What does "CFR" stand for?

In Leviticus 18:22 a man is addressed saying, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." I don't believe something is true just because it is asserted in a book, however I'm doubtful that acceptance of ideal gay relationships is Biblical.

We should accept monogamous gay relationships, even though the Bible tells us not to in my opinion.

What do you mean about Jonathan and David?

[Stargazer]

Well, I respect you as an educated man. If you look back through human history at people like Copernicus, Galileo, John on the Isle of Patmos, Martin Luther, Wycliffe and others, they all had ideas that were not believed at the time. Many died because of their ideas. Humans are blood thirsty predators, the most successful on earth.

 

I obey the covenants but I will never see the blessings that born Mormons will, at least not in this life. There are lots of us like that.

 

I am very willing to wait these issues out. I am old and will not have to spend my life suffering with these things. It is fine to hold to the Iron Rod, just lets not get hateful and condemning.

 

Last week, I was informed by my son that I am crazy. That is painful to hear. Knowing him, he will eventually try to take my rights. That is pain.

 

Well, my advice is to embrace the craziness.  All of us are insane to one degree or another (at least that is the impression you'd get if you read through the DSM).  Here's the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders_as_defined_by_the_DSM_and_ICD

 

Here's my little difficulty.

 

I should be going to bed right now, but here I am posting like there's no tomorrow.  My wife is getting very annoyed with me.

 

But joking aside, don't be discouraged by your son's attitude.  I don't see how he could take your rights unless you give him that ability.  I don't think your son can find anything in the DSM that could get you committed, anyway.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Stargazer