The September 6

[Freedom]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56899817-78/quinn-mormon-church-lds.html.csp

 

Shipps talks about how Quinn's research of church history cost him his job at  BYU. Since he has not worked for 10 years, I suspect that there is more to his story.  I am curious, what facts did he discover that led to accusations of apostasy? We do not know why we was excommunicated, however the evidence seems to suggest that it was for being a practicing homosexual. But putting his excommunication aside, I am wondering what was it he found that would have gone against doctrine? As Shipps says:

 

 

"He may know more about the Mormon past than anybody alive," says Jan Shipps, a Methodist and a pre-eminent scholar of Mormon history. "He could have had a successful career at Brigham Young University if he had been willing to give up his research in LDS Church history and just teach."

 

 

[JLHPROF]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56899817-78/quinn-mormon-church-lds.html.csp

 

Shipps talks about how Quinn's research of church history cost him his job at  BYU. Since he has not worked for 10 years, I suspect that there is more to his story.  I am curious, what facts did he discover that led to accusations of apostasy? We do not know why we was excommunicated, however the evidence seems to suggest that it was for being a practicing homosexual. But putting his excommunication aside, I am wondering what was it he found that would have gone against doctrine? As Shipps says:

 

I am no expert on Quinn and I am sure someone here can correct me but the way I understand it it wasn't what he found, it was the direction he was spiraling towards.  He started out writing on plural marriage, the anointed quorum and the hidden hierarchies from the early days in Nauvoo.  Church doesn't like to discuss that, but ok.  Then came the research into Joseph Smith and magic, and the evidence of simple folk magic suddenly became Joseph the sorcerer.  Then came seeing homosexual relationships that simply didn't exist.  He started taking huge leaps towards conclusions that his knowledge didn't really back up.

Basically, like the brilliant Don Quixote, he started tilting at windmills.

[Freedom]

I am no expert on Quinn and I am sure someone here can correct me but the way I understand it it wasn't what he found, it was the direction he was spiraling towards.  He started out writing on plural marriage, the anointed quorum and the hidden hierarchies from the early days in Nauvoo.  Church doesn't like to discuss that, but ok.  Then came the research into Joseph Smith and magic, and the evidence of simple folk magic suddenly became Joseph the sorcerer.  Then came seeing homosexual relationships that simply didn't exist.  He started taking huge leaps towards conclusions that his knowledge didn't really back up.

Basically, like the brilliant Don Quixote, he started tilting at windmills.

From what I read of him, that seem to be his ongoing challenge. It spilled over to his non LDS employment which led to his unemployment. Finding evidence without evidence.

[omni]

One issue that seemed to contribute were his revelations concerning post-manifesto polygamy.

[Freedom]

One issue that seemed to contribute were his revelations concerning post-manifesto polygamy.

This topic would make for an interesting discussion.

[thesometimesaint]

This topic would make for an interesting discussion.

 

Not so much.

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

 

Just as the practice of plural marriage among the Latter-day Saints began gradually, the ending of the practice after the Manifesto was also gradual. Some plural marriages were performed after the Manifesto, particularly in Mexico and Canada. In 1904, President Joseph F. Smith called for a vote from the Church membership that all post-Manifesto plural marriages be prohibited worldwide.

[Freedom]

Not so much.

 

 So did Quinn have nothing to contribute from his excommunication other than the justification to live his chosen lifestyle? I was hoping there would have been at least a little skeleton he uncovered.

[Duncan]

 So did Quinn have nothing to contribute from his excommunication other than the justification to live his chosen lifestyle? I was hoping there would have been at least a little skeleton he uncovered.

 

 

I find his comment about him being an apostle intriguing, like if he wasn't ever exed, would he be an Apostle today? Did God plan for a homo you know what Apostle? I honeslty don't know how he could foreordain someone to being something like that without also knowing that they would go inactive

Edited September 29, 2013 by Duncan

[Robert F. Smith]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56899817-78/quinn-mormon-church-lds.html.csp

 

Shipps talks about how Quinn's research of church history cost him his job at  BYU. Since he has not worked for 10 years, I suspect that there is more to his story.  I am curious, what facts did he discover that led to accusations of apostasy? We do not know why we was excommunicated, however the evidence seems to suggest that it was for being a practicing homosexual. But putting his excommunication aside, I am wondering what was it he found that would have gone against doctrine? As Shipps says:

Far more to the point is David Haglund's long bio on Quinn in Slate http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2012/11/d_michael_quinn_and_mormon_excommunication_the_complicated_life_of_a_mormon.html .  You are likely correct about the immediate reason for Quinn's excommunication, but you may want to read a broad cross-section of his written work to decide for yourself whether he was also ex-ed for expressing certain opinions about the LDS Church hierarchy.

Jan Shipps is a fine historian, but I think it unlikely that Quinn could have continued at BYU much longer by not publishing and only teaching.  He would have to have been muzzled as well.  There is no realistic scenario by which he could have survived at BYU, and he apparently realized that full well.

[Robert F. Smith]

I find his comment about him being an apostle intriguing, like if he wasn't ever exed, would he be an Apostle today? Did God plan for a homo you know what Apostle? I honeslty don't know how he could foreordain someone to being something like that without also knowing that they would go inactive

Mothers in Zion tend to tell their young sons that sort of thing, and it doesn't constitute foreordination.  On the other hand, Mike is still with us and may yet rejoin the Church and then be selected for that august group of apostolic Brethren.  You never know.  Paul the Apostle was a vile opponent of Christianity and spent his time persecuting and killing Christians.  Yet he became a powerful Apostle of Christ.

[EllenMaksoud]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56899817-78/quinn-mormon-church-lds.html.csp

 

Shipps talks about how Quinn's research of church history cost him his job at  BYU. Since he has not worked for 10 years, I suspect that there is more to his story.  I am curious, what facts did he discover that led to accusations of apostasy? We do not know why we was excommunicated, however the evidence seems to suggest that it was for being a practicing homosexual. But putting his excommunication aside, I am wondering what was it he found that would have gone against doctrine? As Shipps says:

Not that I care if he is a practicing Homosexual, but I am sure that there are people who matter who take exception to the practice, and would likely excommunicate him. Just saying.

 

As to the idea that he knows more about Mormon History than anyone, Youtube is just packed full of people who say they know all about the church and our devious lies.

 

I am not sure what you are looking for. Are you looking for a reason to discredit the church?

[rockpond]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56899817-78/quinn-mormon-church-lds.html.csp

 

Shipps talks about how Quinn's research of church history cost him his job at  BYU. Since he has not worked for 10 years, I suspect that there is more to his story.  I am curious, what facts did he discover that led to accusations of apostasy? We do not know why we was excommunicated, however the evidence seems to suggest that it was for being a practicing homosexual. But putting his excommunication aside, I am wondering what was it he found that would have gone against doctrine? As Shipps says:

 

What evidence suggests that he was excommunicated for being a practicing homosexual?  Everything I've read or heard suggests that it was about his writing.

[thesometimesaint]

 So did Quinn have nothing to contribute from his excommunication other than the justification to live his chosen lifestyle? I was hoping there would have been at least a little skeleton he uncovered.

 

Being a active homossexual is grounds for Church discipline. But I don't believe that was the most significant cause for his excommunication. It was his publishing that JS and the early brethern were engaged in homosexual activity.

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[thesometimesaint]

I hadn't heard that.

[Freedom]

Not that I care if he is a practicing Homosexual, but I am sure that there are people who matter who take exception to the practice, and would likely excommunicate him. Just saying.

 

As to the idea that he knows more about Mormon History than anyone, Youtube is just packed full of people who say they know all about the church and our devious lies.

 

I am not sure what you are looking for. Are you looking for a reason to discredit the church?

I have read some of his material, and have followed the September 6 since they were first excommunicated. I found their material was highly speculative and driven by assumptions. As has been said by others, I do not have a testimony of church history or of church leaders. I have a testimony of the restored gospel. I am just more curious if there is anything controversial he or others published that is based on real evidence that should be explored further. For example, from what I have read, there was quite a bit of animosity between BY and the quorum of the 12 - some take this as evidence that the church is not true, I take it as evidence that God calls ordinary people to accomplish extraordinary things. The warts in our past strengthens me because I can relax a bit when my own imperfections cause me problems.

[Freedom]

What evidence suggests that he was excommunicated for being a practicing homosexual?  Everything I've read or heard suggests that it was about his writing.

I couldn't provide a specific source because I have read bit and pieces over 25 years. The impression I got is that, although there were those who were opposed to what he was writing, there was clear evidence that at the point of his excommunication he was an active homosexual. I seem to recall a letter that he openly displayed stating that the stake president wanted to talk to him about moral issues; however Quinn refused to attend his own disciplinary council so even he admits that he never made any attempt to respond to any allegations. Further, he has never divulge the specific reason for his excommunication so the evidence seems to suggest that it was his homosexuality rather than his writings that was the final straw. But who knows. But as I said, I am not really concerned about why he was excommunicated because that is his own business and his own struggle - a struggle that I do not have and will perhaps never understand. I am more interested if there was anything legitimate in his theories that should be examined. From what I have read, I cannot find much more than speculation.

[Nevo]

 So did Quinn have nothing to contribute from his excommunication other than the justification to live his chosen lifestyle? I was hoping there would have been at least a little skeleton he uncovered.

 

That's kind of a weird thing for a believer to say, but rest assured that Quinn has uncovered plenty of "skeletons."

[thesometimesaint]

I always claimed that there has been but one prefect person on this planet, and we aren't him. I believe the most wonderful thing about the Resored Gospel is that God knowing all our faults, foibles, sins, and the not nice things about us, chooses to communicate with us anyway.

[freedad]

If Quinn has some dirt that excommunicated him, wouldn't he release it?  I would think so.  While somewhat controversial, Quinn's writings may have annoyed the Church leadership.  But if it was truth I don't think it would be the reason to remove him.  Clearly, a practicing homosexual would be the reason for excommunication.  Whether one is a minor church celebrity or an unknown member, it does not matter.  This immorality is not tolerated.

[Nevo]

I always claimed that there has been but one prefect person on this planet, and we aren't him. I believe the most wonderful thing about the Resored Gospel is that God knowing all our faults, foibles, sins, and the not nice things about us, chooses to communicate with us anyway.

 

Agreed. As Paul wrote, "we have this treasure [divine light and knowledge] in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" (2 Corinthians 4:7). God's grace is bountiful.

[Freedom]

That's kind of a weird thing for a believer to say, but rest assured that Quinn has uncovered plenty of "skeletons."

Such as?

[Nevo]

While somewhat controversial, Quinn's writings may have annoyed the Church leadership.  But if it was truth I don't think it would be the reason to remove him.  Clearly, a practicing homosexual would be the reason for excommunication.

 

Please do read the Slate article that Robert linked. It is pretty clear that apostasy was the primary consideration in Quinn's disciplinary council(s), not his (at that time) rumored homosexuality.

 

I doubt Quinn would be excommunicated for apostasy now. But things were different in the early 1990s.

 

I'm not sure how the Church generally proceeds nowadays against inactive members who are not living the law of chastity, but I suspect that excommunications are fairly uncommon.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Nevo

[rockpond]

If Quinn has some dirt that excommunicated him, wouldn't he release it? I would think so. While somewhat controversial, Quinn's writings may have annoyed the Church leadership. But if it was truth I don't think it would be the reason to remove him. Clearly, a practicing homosexual would be the reason for excommunication. Whether one is a minor church celebrity or an unknown member, it does not matter. This immorality is not tolerated.

 

I'm not sure that any of the Sept 6 were ex'd/disfellowshipped for writing things that were demonstrably false. But they certainly were controversial an presumably annoying.

 

It's good to remember that Quinn remains steadfast in his belief in the restoration. In fact, he deliberately attend a fast and testimony meeting right before his excommunication so that he could publicly give his testimony, one last time.

Edited September 30, 2013 by rockpond

[Nevo]

Such as?

 

Well, for starters, statements from nineteenth-century general authorities sanctioning extra-judicial killings, castrations, lynchings, and marriage between siblings, post-Manifesto marriages of general authorities, J. Reuben Clark's extreme antisemitism, etc.