Disciplinary Council Unless Passing The Heavenly Gate Is Withdrawn From Publication

[MormonMason]

Great, thank you!!

No problem.

[Calm]

That helps with the idea that one only needs the ordinance as opposed to other ordinances where we say it has to be confirmed by the Spirit etc, removes the need for infallible leaders never making a mistake, etc.

[MormonMason]

That helps with the idea that one only needs the ordinance as opposed to other ordinances where we say it has to be confirmed by the Spirit etc, removes the need for infallible leaders never making a mistake, etc.

Any persons claiming that they have had their calling and election made sure because they have received an ordinance, and do not hear the voice of the Lord tell them that they will be exalted, have never had their callings and elections made sure, and certainly did not understand the ordinance which was conferred upon them.

[Stone holm]

Ongoing inquiry as to whether people have ever heard of a rite of second anointing from people who graduated from seminary and are very active result remains 0 percent.

[Calm]

Ongoing inquiry as to whether people have ever heard of a rite of second anointing from people who graduated from seminary and are very active result remains 0 percent.

Without definite numbers attached, percentages are meaningless. If you never asked one person you could still validly claim it remained at 0%.

[Stone holm]

Without definite numbers attached, percentages are meaningless. If you never asked one person you could still validly claim it remained at 0%.

True, but have asked several people and will keep asking.

[Stone holm]

Actually, you are missing a detail.  You must also hear the voice of the Father tell you, "Son (or daughter), thou shalt be exalted."

 

And, if you are fighting to stay awake, you aren't really being attentive.  It is impossible to do so in such a state.  When you go, go with a different attitude toward the ordinance, be open to learning more each time that you go, and above all, make sure you really are worthy to be there (not saying you are doing this but a lot of people lie in the interviews and get their temple recommends, attend, and than cannot for their lives figure out why they don't learn by revelation when they are there).  It also helps a lot to be well rested before going.

Well the reason I made that reference was to indicate I might have missed a reference, but I suspect that I am not the only person who finds the Temple Endowment as a great cure for insomnia...but people tend not to say so because such confessions tend to provoke calls to repentance and lectures on attitude, etc. it's kind of like the admonition to constantly retread the Scriptures which is okay, I guess because reading the scriptures is kind of like meditation in Buddhism. However, the claim that people get a flood of new knowledge each time tends to make a person wonder about their reading comprehension, of course making any comment like that out loud is going to get you a full course of pontifications.

[Calm]

 I suspect that I am not the only person who finds the Temple Endowment as a great cure for insomnia

 

I don't understand the purpose of going if you know you are going to sleep through it.

[LordUther]

However, the claim that people get a flood of new knowledge each time tends to make a person wonder about their reading comprehension, of course making any comment like that out loud is going to get you a full course of pontifications.

 

WOW!! If someone is able to take something out of & learn from the word of God each time they read it...the problem is with them?! Really?!?! Just wow!

[Stone holm]

I don't understand the purpose of going if you know you are going to sleep through it.

Absolutely, reached the same conclusion. Which is why I go so rarely, although I used to claim I always drew sleepy spirits.

WOW!! If someone is able to take something out of & learn from the word of God each time they read it...the problem is with them?! Really?!?! Just wow!

Why not if they don't we claim there is a problem with them.

[Senator]

I don't understand the purpose of going if you know you are going to sleep through it.

 

To perform the ordinance in behalf of another.

 

It's not really possible to sleep through it.  It's an interactive ordeal.

[LordUther]

Why not if they don't we claim there is a problem with them.

 

Because of the old axiom you get out what you put in. The times I get nothing out of the scriptures are the times I read it as a book rather than study it with the Spirit. When I put nothing in, I get nothing out.

[Deborah]

It's an interactive ordeal.

 

Wow, I never heard it described as an "ordeal" nor have I ever felt that way even at my most tired. With that kind of attitude how can the Holy Spirit witness anything.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Deborah

[Senator]

Wow, I never heard it described as an "ordeal" nor have I ever felt that way even at my most tired. With that kind of attitude how can the Holy Spirit witness anything.Pl

 

Please don't make an offender for a word.....

 

 

 

But come to think of it, the word fits quite well the whole scene of creation, birth, sin, the fall, repentance, and by much pain and sweat working our way back to the presence of God. No?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Senator

[Stone holm]

Please don't make an offender for a word.....

Tsk, tsk ... Beware of the righteous...

[Calm]

To perform the ordinance in behalf of another.

 

It doesn't show much respect for that person if you sleep through it as much as possible, imo.

 

If one sleepwalked through one's own endowment, wouldn't you be concerned about his lack of commitment and understanding of the whole process, that perhaps he might not care all that much about what he was about to be given....that perhaps he wasn't ready to take on that covenant?

 

I don't see the responsibility to be actively involved in what is happening diminishing simply because we are doing it for some other person and not ourselves.  I can just imagine how someone might feel if the person who was going to baptize or seal them showed up barely on time, mumbled through the words, perhaps even dressed slovenly, texted others while talks, hymns and prayers were going on or a host of other things that showed that at that moment, that experience wasn't at the forefront of his mind, the most important thing he was doing right then.  It would be very painful and hurtful and instead of being grateful, I for one would be resentful for him destroying much of the spiritual environment of the event.  Hopefully those waiting for their work to be done are able to be more focused than I would be.

[Senator]

It doesn't show much respect for that person if you sleep through it as much as possible, imo.

 

If one sleepwalked through one's own endowment, wouldn't you be concerned about his lack of commitment and understanding of the whole process, that perhaps he might not care all that much about what he was about to be given....that perhaps he wasn't ready to take on that covenant?

 

I don't see the responsibility to be actively involved in what is happening diminishing simply because we are doing it for some other person and not ourselves.  I can just imagine how someone might feel if the person who was going to baptize or seal them showed up barely on time, mumbled through the words, perhaps even dressed slovenly, texted others while talks, hymns and prayers were going on or a host of other things that showed that at that moment, that experience wasn't at the forefront of his mind, the most important thing he was doing right then.  It would be very painful and hurtful and instead of being grateful, I for one would be resentful for him destroying much of the spiritual environment of the event.  Hopefully those waiting for their work to be done are able to be more focused than I would be.

 

Well, I believe that those on the other side are probably (having gone through it) a bit more understanding of the mortal condition. Even Jesus, though a bit disappointed, did not cast off his disciples for having slept through his greatest hour of trial.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Senator

[smac97]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIBmlONp__MWell the reason I made that reference was to indicate I might have missed a reference, but I suspect that I am not the only person who finds the Temple Endowment as a great cure for insomnia...but people tend not to say so because such confessions tend to provoke calls to repentance and lectures on attitude, etc. it's kind of like the admonition to constantly retread the Scriptures which is okay, I guess because reading the scriptures is kind of like meditation in Buddhism. However, the claim that people get a flood of new knowledge each time tends to make a person wonder about their reading comprehension, of course making any comment like that out loud is going to get you a full course of pontifications.

I'm not sure I understand your position. Are you proposing that the temple ordinance is organically defective? That people who do appreciate temple liturgy are faking it?

It appears you are trying to preempt what is, from within the LDS paradigm, the appropriate response: that temple ordinances must be approached in a particular way in order to be understood. I am reminded of a conversation in "The Mountain of the Lord," a 1993 film produced by the Church about the building of the Salt Lake Temple. The conversation is between President Woodruff and a (fictional) reporter from the eastern United States who had traveled to Utah to cover the dedication of the temple. This conversation is in this YouTube clip (starting at about 1:37):

 

Reporter: Might I ask you a difficult question?

 

President Woodruff: Please.

 

Reporter: Theoretically speaking, is it possible that even I might enter into the temple and receive these ordinances?

 

President Woodruff: The temple is for anyone who is living in accordance with the commandments that God has given with respect to the temple.

 

Reporter: One doesn't just walk into the temple.

 

President Woodruff: No.  Even in the days of Solomon's Temple, there were certain laws of purification that had to be met before one was allowed to enter the temple.  Today, even those who are members of the Church must first spiritually prepare themselves and be worthy to receive these blessings.

 

Reporter: And this is because those who are not properly prepared, such as myself, might not fully grasp their meaning?

 

President Woodruff: In their fullness, the realities of eternity are beyond our mortal capacity to comprehend.  These covenants are given by revelation, and they can only be understood by revelation.  Just as in the ancient temples we spoke of earlier, the temple is a place to which the Saints can go and feel they are coming into the presence of the Lord.  Very important truths about their relationship to him, and the purpose of life.  This is why we build temples.

 

"These covenants are given by revelation, and they can only be understood by revelation."  Aptly stated, I think.

 

The question, I think, should be what preparation can we as individuals do to get more out of the temple.  

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited September 18, 2013 by smac97

[Stone holm]

It doesn't show much respect for that person if you sleep through it as much as possible, imo.

 

If one sleepwalked through one's own endowment, wouldn't you be concerned about his lack of commitment and understanding of the whole process, that perhaps he might not care all that much about what he was about to be given....that perhaps he wasn't ready to take on that covenant?

 

I don't see the responsibility to be actively involved in what is happening diminishing simply because we are doing it for some other person and not ourselves.  I can just imagine how someone might feel if the person who was going to baptize or seal them showed up barely on time, mumbled through the words, perhaps even dressed slovenly, texted others while talks, hymns and prayers were going on or a host of other things that showed that at that moment, that experience wasn't at the forefront of his mind, the most important thing he was doing right then.  It would be very painful and hurtful and instead of being grateful, I for one would be resentful for him destroying much of the spiritual environment of the event.  Hopefully those waiting for their work to be done are able to be more focused than I would be.

Absolutely correct, people who tend to fall asleep should either avoid going, or I guess drink a couple Red Bulls and then hope they have EMTs available for the Celestial Room, course maybe that is a good place to die of a heart attack.

[Calm]

 Even Jesus, though a bit disappointed, did not cast off his disciples for having slept through his greatest hour of trial.

Good point, but I suspect it makes something of a difference if someone sleeps because of lack of interest or sleeps because of exhaustion.

[Avatar4321]

Ran the whole second anointing thing past my wife, her reaction was exactly as I stated earlier. I have an open mind about it because it resolves some issues I had with Section 132, but it seems a bit odd that the Church would keep an ordinance like that so confidential except, I suspect the antis would have a field day with it if it were ever verified to exist.

 

The Antis would have a field day with something that has never been hidden from anyone? We know about the ordinance. The anti's haven't had a field day yet. They wont ever either.

[Stone holm]

The Antis would have a field day with something that has never been hidden from anyone? We know about the ordinance. The anti's haven't had a field day yet. They wont ever either.

Uh, you might want to define "we", if you mean the people on this board who have been following a couple threads, then yes I would agree. If you mean Mormons as a general rule, then I would have t take exception. The concept is clearly not openly taught even in non-sanitized manuals and many otherwise well read Mormons are completely unaware of it.

[WmLaw]

The Antis would have a field day with something that has never been hidden from anyone? We know about the ordinance. The anti's haven't had a field day yet. They wont ever either.

Where can I go to read more about the ordinance?

[Stone holm]

Where can I go to read more about the ordinance?

Basically this board.

[smac97]

Uh, you might want to define "we", if you mean the people on this board who have been following a couple threads, then yes I would agree. If you mean Mormons as a general rule, then I would have t take exception. The concept is clearly not openly taught even in non-sanitized manuals and many otherwise well read Mormons are completely unaware of it.

 

Perhaps I have missed it, but can you explain why this is problematic for you?  Is it possible that this ordinance is intended to not be generally taught?

 

Thank you,

 

-Smac