Cloning And The Church

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I think it is possible there will never successfully be a cloned human.

If there is a soul (and there is) then none. Not like mine anyway depending how you view it. Edited July 7, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Stone holm]

So evenetually polygamous familes can actually have their children be the biological children of the husband and all his wives.

That doesn't bother me as much as the next step which would be aimed at designer children.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That's pretty cool.

Yes let's see if we can screw up children more.

[CV75]

On the way to Church, I was listening to NPR discuss the fact that in the UK they have authorised a procedure which may result in a child having three genetic parents as they have authorised replacing the mitochondrial DNA of certain mothers.

Yes, this has been in the news before, for a few years now. The intent is to allow the two natural parents to prevent diseases that might be passed on to the baby by the mother's problematic DNA. Chromosomal material is taken from the "sick" zygote (actually several, as this is an IVF process) with the problematic mitochondrial DNA and placed into a "healthy" zygote (again several) that has had its genetic material removed and the "healthy" mitochondrion kept in place.

Unfortunately, to rain on the parade, children born through IVF have been found to suffer a higher rates of mental illness.

Tough decisions for everyone, but God still loves everybody.

[Questing Beast]

That doesn't bother me as much as the next step which would be aimed at designer children.

Hold that thought: what's ethically wrong with trying to produce the desired effect? If you literally have the power to choose, stature, facial features, skin color, hair, symmetry, the best brain, the works, why would you settle for less? Isn't "perfection' what we all crave? Perfection does not mean one type, but perfect types, a limitless array of types, all perfected....

[strappinglad]

Hold that thought: what's ethically wrong with trying to produce the desired effect? If you literally have the power to choose, stature, facial features, skin color, hair, symmetry, the best brain, the works, why would you settle for less? Isn't "perfection' what we all crave? Perfection does not mean one type, but perfect types, a limitless array of types, all perfected....

Because we need plumbers. To the Chinese, the perfect human was male and they worked to make that happen. There is a disaster in the making in China's demographics. Given the opportunity , people will create 'classes' of humans to occupy niches in society. How many movies have shown the desire for the Super soldier? I believe the power to create to exactness is not yet a power we human would use correctly.

[Stone holm]

Because we need plumbers. To the Chinese, the perfect human was male and they worked to make that happen. There is a disaster in the making in China's demographics. Given the opportunity , people will create 'classes' of humans to occupy niches in society. How many movies have shown the desire for the Super soldier? I believe the power to create to exactness is not yet a power we human would use correctly.

Because without certain forms of mental illness we would not have some of our greatest artists and poets, we may not have even had our greatest President Abraham Lincoln who suffered repeatedly from depression. We play with the process of evolution and God's creation at our peril, for we know not what the ramifications are of what we do. Would the world have been a better place without a Helen Keller?

[thesometimesaint]

Because without certain forms of mental illness we would not have some of our greatest artists and poets, we may not have even had our greatest President Abraham Lincoln who suffered repeatedly from depression. We play with the process of evolution and God's creation at our peril, for we know not what the ramifications are of what we do. Would the world have been a better place without a Helen Keller?

I don't know if we would or would not have been better off without Helen Keller. But we definitely would not have been better off without Anne Sullivan.

[Stone holm]

I don't know if we would or would not have been better off without Helen Keller. But we definitely would not have been better off without Anne Sullivan.

What would be the point of having an Anne Sullivan if you don't have a Helen Keller. Plus what if we don't understand the importance and significance of certain personality types and we eliminate them. Is there a deep ecology issue here? If in the process of trying to make sure that another Adolph Hitler doesn't reoccur we eliminate some other possibility which would have been a force for good. Isn't designer children just another flipside of eugenics? And suppose it works, not everyone is going to be able to afford it -- so then are we not actually trying to create a master race with all the downsides that portend. Does this not sound awfully similar to "Brave New World" type dystopia?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't ever see the day when mankind has cloned a human, when considering the alternative way to make human beings, why spend so much time, cash and effort? but if so let this be the theme song

I am old enough to know the song he used.

[thesometimesaint]

What would be the point of having an Anne Sullivan if you don't have a Helen Keller. Plus what if we don't understand the importance and significance of certain personality types and we eliminate them. Is there a deep ecology issue here? If in the process of trying to make sure that another Adolph Hitler doesn't reoccur we eliminate some other possibility which would have been a force for good. Isn't designer children just another flipside of eugenics? And suppose it works, not everyone is going to be able to afford it -- so then are we not actually trying to create a master race with all the downsides that portend. Does this not sound awfully similar to "Brave New World" type dystopia?

Helen's parents might have disagreed with you prior to Anne Sullivan coming for an extended stay.

I would never support the elimination of anyone already here. But I can see the need to protect ourselves from their misdeeds.

Generally I'm not in favor of designer children. We never know the environment that they will have to live and make their way in. A trait we deselect may be the one trait that keeps the species alive.

Master races disgust me. There is good and bad in all races, kindred, tongues, and peoples.

[Questing Beast]

You are borrowing trouble to assume that "designer children" will be out of reach except for the wealthy.

You are borrowing trouble worrying that such power will inevitably result in "super warriors" and "super street sweepers", et al. "niche" laborers. Sure, some will suggest this, but the technology implied is so vast in possibilities that no single paradigm of "super race" will be possible. Take cars as analogy: more makes all the time, and more models and more features, all the while technology makes cars better than ever. And that is like playing with wooden blocks compared to genetics. The chance to alter known genetic defects will not be refused. Then the chance to improve in the womb so that "perfection" is sought will also not be refused. The saving grace in it all would be the virtually limitless variety, available to everyone....

[Stone holm]

You are borrowing trouble to assume that "designer children" will be out of reach except for the wealthy.

You are borrowing trouble worrying that such power will inevitably result in "super warriors" and "super street sweepers", et al. "niche" laborers. Sure, some will suggest this, but the technology implied is so vast in possibilities that no single paradigm of "super race" will be possible. Take cars as analogy: more makes all the time, and more models and more features, all the while technology makes cars better than ever. And that is like playing with wooden blocks compared to genetics. The chance to alter known genetic defects will not be refused. Then the chance to improve in the womb so that "perfection" is sought will also not be refused. The saving grace in it all would be the virtually limitless variety, available to everyone....

Well actually the variance in cars has declined somewhat since I was a kid. What happened there was that Ford had saturated the market with Model T's. GM decided they needed to expand the market by radically changing the look each model year and thereby created an unlimited market in America since Americans wanted a new model each year. That lasted until the late 70 when the cost of cars got too expensive and people noticed that cars like the VW beetle kept their value because they didn't change every year so cars started to look more and more alike. I suspect that with designer babies it will become like heritage breed chickens the variants will decline and you will have certain models for certain types and classes of people. Fortunately at least a certain kink has been put in this Brave New World scenario by the Supreme Court's recent ruling that human genes could not be patented.

[Stone holm]

Helen's parents might have disagreed with you prior to Anne Sullivan coming for an extended stay.

I would never support the elimination of anyone already here. But I can see the need to protect ourselves from their misdeeds.

Generally I'm not in favor of designer children. We never know the environment that they will have to live and make their way in. A trait we deselect may be the one trait that keeps the species alive.

Master races disgust me. There is good and bad in all races, kindred, tongues, and peoples.

Am thinking of the jimmy Stewart movie Harvey.

[Questing Beast]

And "Harvey" preferred Elwood over Chumley too.

We all have preferences, and so why not pick them? If genetics really does arrive at "designer children" everyone will be "building" their next child with choices in mind....

[Stone holm]

And "Harvey" preferred Elwood over Chumley too.

We all have preferences, and so why not pick them? If genetics really does arrive at "designer children" everyone will be "building" their next child with choices in mind....

Was thinking more about the relatives decision not to give the shot which would have eliminated Harvey. I am not particularly willing to let Monsanto start playing games with the future of mankind. My gut instinct says, "What could possibly go wrong...."

[Questing Beast]

Of course things would go wrong. But on balance more things would turn out right and better. That's what applied knowledge does. If that were not generally true, and instead the things we learn make the world worse, we would be extinct by now....

[Stone holm]

Of course things would go wrong. But on balance more things would turn out right and better. That's what applied knowledge does. If that were not generally true, and instead the things we learn make the world worse, we would be extinct by now....

Working on it....

[thesometimesaint]

Of course things would go wrong. But on balance more things would turn out right and better. That's what applied knowledge does. If that were not generally true, and instead the things we learn make the world worse, we would be extinct by now....

Wisdom is knowledge rightfully applied. We are not all that wise. Any small change in environment can/does lead to extinction. Humans are not immune.

[Questing Beast]

Are you both saying that our God-given knowledge is intended to destroy us? That is perverse....

[Stone holm]

Are you both saying that our God-given knowledge is intended to destroy us? That is perverse....

God given knowledge? Hm...interesting. I don't know for sure what TSS is saying, but I am saying that frequently scientific break through remedies and enhancements, frequently lead to new problems which we have to fix. We also can make stupendous errors -- that seem like absolutely the right thing at the time, like for example suppressing all forest fires -- which almost led to the extinction of the Sequoia and helped lead to the massively dangerous and lethal wildfires we now have out west. Normally, when we introduce exotic species to control some other species, the introduced species become a bigger pest than that they were introduced to destroy. That is without even getting into the whole GMO debate which is raging out here.

[Questing Beast]

Of course ignorance is problematic. But on balance we know more now about the world than ever before, and tomorrow will know oodles more than now. Knowledge is power. And being in pursuit of good things is far more commonly engaged in than the reverse. So knowledge increasing must result in the world getting better, despite the mistakes along the way....

[Stone holm]

Of course ignorance is problematic. But on balance we know more now about the world than ever before, and tomorrow will know oodles more than now. Knowledge is power. And being in pursuit of good things is far more commonly engaged in than the reverse. So knowledge increasing must result in the world getting better, despite the mistakes along the way....

Actually, normally the huge paradigm shifts in technology and in science accelerate during times of war. We didn't split the atom in order to provide a new source of electricity, we did it to wipe out a city. The Germans didn't invent jets in order to speed people on their way home to visit granny. And GMO corn wasn't invented to improve corn, it was invented to allow the more liberal application of a rather nasty herbicide. We make mistakes along the way and the potential adverse effects of those mistakes keeps enlarging ...

[cinepro]

I am old enough to know the song he used.

Hopefully not so old that you didn't know it's a parody of the

of the song. Edited July 9, 2013 by cinepro

[cinepro]

As for cloned humans, I'm pretty sure they will have the same non-spirit-child spirits that the pre-Adamite humanoids had.

Edited July 9, 2013 by cinepro