God Helps Those Who Help Themselves...

[Stargazer]

The quote is not in the Bible, and in my opinion, not even theologically correct. Perhaps "God helps the faithful" would work better.

Oh, no, of course it isn't in the Bible. It is a common proverb which originates with the ancient Greeks. See the Wikipedia article. The point is, it doesn't have to be theologically correct. It is entirely factual, in the sense that if you want to get something done, then by Golly you better get started. The WP article mentions the complaint some Christians have with it, as not allowing for God's grace. Duh! Can you say "Missing the point"? It's not a statement of religious principle. It is a statement of sweat principle! Here's the scripture:

Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground..;"

Does the proverb contradict the scripture? Nope. It is perfectly in alignment with it.

And please note that the proverb does NOT say if you don't help yourself then God won't help you. We humans seem to have the trick of not reading things backwards as well as forwards, but backwards is sometimes very instructive. Remember the story I told of my son finding himself thrown out of bed? He didn't help himself, yet God still helped him.

[EllenMaksoud]

Oh, no, of course it isn't in the Bible. It is a common proverb which originates with the ancient Greeks. See the Wikipedia article. The point is, it doesn't have to be theologically correct. It is entirely factual, in the sense that if you want to get something done, then by Golly you better get started. The WP article mentions the complaint some Christians have with it, as not allowing for God's grace. Duh! Can you say "Missing the point"? It's not a statement of religious principle. It is a statement of sweat principle! Here's the scripture:

Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground..;"

Does the proverb contradict the scripture? Nope. It is perfectly in alignment with it.

And please note that the proverb does NOT say if you don't help yourself then God won't help you. We humans seem to have the trick of not reading things backwards as well as forwards, but backwards is sometimes very instructive. Remember the story I told of my son finding himself thrown out of bed? He didn't help himself, yet God still helped him.

Now you have gone too deep for me this late at night. I do not wish to engage in spiritual Karate right now.

[Stargazer]

Now you have gone too deep for me this late at night. I do not wish to engage in spiritual Karate right now.

Well, sorry, that wasn't my intent to engage in spiritual martial arts at all! You're obviously not like me -- late at night is when I start getting incredibly long-winded and sore-bottomed. I need a more comfy chair, so maybe instead I'd just fall asleep in it.

[EllenMaksoud]

Well, sorry, that wasn't my intent to engage in spiritual martial arts at all! You're obviously not like me -- late at night is when I start getting incredibly long-winded and sore-bottomed. I need a more comfy chair, so maybe instead I'd just fall asleep in it.

I am going to "pull the draperies of my couch about me and lie down to pleasant dreams". Thanatopsis.

[strappinglad]

Sorry, some of you have been "Had" by Khadijah I only do this on line because no one can chase me down and punish me. LOL

To quote comedian Mike Birbiglia " You'd be surprised "

[changed]

The quote is not in the Bible..

Sure it is - James 2:20, at least that's close enough to me.

[EllenMaksoud]

Sure it is - James 2:20, at least that's close enough to me.

Nuh uh. Edited July 2, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[pmccombs1]

So sitting in Sunday School this week, one of the members quoted, "God helps those who help themselves". Well, astonishingly this Mormon gentleness must finally be rubbing off on me, so I refrained from correcting her right in class, and did not do so afterward because I do not know her. Later to my great surprise, in researching how this bit of nonsense got started, I found the book of Hezekiah. What an education I got ! http://www.freerepub...n/2123751/posts

What does it mean to help oneself?

[Stone holm]

Not gay, just defend what I feel is right.

Yeah, that won't necessarily cost you your Temple Recommend, but it may help you avoid teaching and speaking assignments. I started to butt heads with a Stake President when he started arguing that the gays were coercing us -- went as far as derailing his argument with my answer to one of his questions, thought about then shredding his argument altogether, then thought nawh not worth it. Today, I regret not shredding his argument because we lost a good family that day from the Ward due in part to his little chat with the Priesthood. He was soon kicked upstairs to be a missionary president somewhere. Spread good tidings and good cheer...lol

[Stone holm]

So sitting in Sunday School this week, one of the members quoted, "God helps those who help themselves". Well, astonishingly this Mormon gentleness must finally be rubbing off on me, so I refrained from correcting her right in class, and did not do so afterward because I do not know her. Later to my great surprise, in researching how this bit of nonsense got started, I found the book of Hezekiah. What an education I got ! http://www.freerepub...n/2123751/posts

"God helps those who help themselves", said the Good Samaritan to absolutely no one.

[Tacenda]

Yeah, that won't necessarily cost you your Temple Recommend, but it may help you avoid teaching and speaking assignments. I started to butt heads with a Stake President when he started arguing that the gays were coercing us -- went as far as derailing his argument with my answer to one of his questions, thought about then shredding his argument altogether, then thought nawh not worth it. Today, I regret not shredding his argument because we lost a good family that day from the Ward due in part to his little chat with the Priesthood. He was soon kicked upstairs to be a missionary president somewhere. Spread good tidings and good cheer...lol

It took everything I had not to stand up and speak out against a woman in RS a couple of years ago, when she said how sick it was that gays wanted to adopt or have kids.

[EllenMaksoud]

What does it mean to help oneself?

Oh wow, you get into those deep and boring arguments like the difference between Armenianisim and Calvinism. People actually killed each other over that sort of thing; completely missing what is of value.

[EllenMaksoud]

Yeah, that won't necessarily cost you your Temple Recommend, but it may help you avoid teaching and speaking assignments. I started to butt heads with a Stake President when he started arguing that the gays were coercing us -- went as far as derailing his argument with my answer to one of his questions, thought about then shredding his argument altogether, then thought nawh not worth it. Today, I regret not shredding his argument because we lost a good family that day from the Ward due in part to his little chat with the Priesthood. He was soon kicked upstairs to be a missionary president somewhere. Spread good tidings and good cheer...lol

It makes some uncomfortable that I still insist that Muhammad PBUH was a prophet and have said so in Sunday school and RS. I'll have to look it up but one of the past church presidents agrees with me, so he must be right. We like to have things in tidy little boxes, but life is really messy and oft times resists our efforts at order.

I truly think that all this ruction about GBLT issues is a distraction from satan. If we are busy hand wringing over the actions of others, then we can not be about the work of Heavenly Father.

[Calm]

I think the Parable of the Ten Virgins as well as the Parable of the Talents and Faithful Servant (IIRC) do demonstrate the principle that the Lord requires us to do what we can to prepare for his help...what our preparation may be depends on what the Spirit is telling us as well as the circumstances.

[pmccombs1]

Oh wow, you get into those deep and boring arguments like the difference between Armenianisim and Calvinism. People actually killed each other over that sort of thing; completely missing what is of value.

Armenianism and Calvinism? Deep and Boring?

Ah! I see. So it's just one of those empty platitudes that you either love or hate for general reasons of your own. Let us skip deep and boring! The best thing about abstract and nebulous aphorisms, you see, is that you don't actually have to do the work to deserve an opinion about them.

But I had wondered--foolishly--if the saying is true, then how do I help myself in order to gain the help of God? Heaven knows I could use it.

Edited July 2, 2013 by pmccombs1

[Calm]

It makes some uncomfortable that I still insist that Muhammad PBUH was a prophet and have said so in Sunday school and RS.

And back on topic:

When a man asked if he needed to tie his camel up, since he already trusted in God’s help and protection, Muhammad replied: “First tether it, and then trust in God.”

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad?lang=eng

[strappinglad]

Is it not tied in with the idea that " work as if everything depends on you and pray as if everything depends on the Lord" ?

[Stone holm]

It makes some uncomfortable that I still insist that Muhammad PBUH was a prophet and have said so in Sunday school and RS. I'll have to look it up but one of the past church presidents agrees with me, so he must be right. We like to have things in tidy little boxes, but life is really messy and oft times resists our efforts at order.

I truly think that all this ruction about GBLT issues is a distraction from satan. If we are busy hand wringing over the actions of others, then we can not be about the work of Heavenly Father.

It can be a weapon of mass distraction in many forums, but you will note that topics which involve it nearly always reach "hot" status for awhile -- course they also tend to get locked up pretty fast as well...lol

[EllenMaksoud]

Armenianism and Calvinism? Deep and Boring?

Ah! I see. So it's just one of those empty platitudes that you either love or hate for general reasons of your own. Let us skip deep and boring! The best thing about abstract and nebulous aphorisms, you see, is that you don't actually have to do the work to deserve an opinion about them.

But I had wondered--foolishly--if the saying is true, then how do I help myself in order to gain the help of God? Heaven knows I could use it.

If yours is a serious longing, then in my opinion, first comes remorse, and contriteness, then comes faith and it is a gift from God. Upon faith we build reverence, adoration and knowledge. So, we have no reason what so ever to feel any pride, saying that we helped ourselves, because even our faith was a gift from God. Just my opinion.

[EllenMaksoud]

And back on topic:

http://www.lds.org/e...hammad?lang=eng

You have made your point. Thank you.

[EllenMaksoud]

It can be a weapon of mass distraction in many forums, but you will note that topics which involve it nearly always reach "hot" status for awhile -- course they also tend to get locked up pretty fast as well...lol

I think our actions "ought to be" that we completely ignore GBLT issues, focusing more fully on our own conduct. Jesus Christ said, "He that be without sin, cast the first stone..."

I sometimes wonder if those who make the threads you mention so hot are the ones who promote the GBLT cause? To me, gay sex is just icky, so I should not focus on it but focus on being sweet, kind and loving to others.

[pmccombs1]

If yours is a serious longing, then in my opinion, first comes remorse, and contriteness, then comes faith and it is a gift from God. Upon faith we build reverence, adoration and knowledge. So, we have no reason what so ever to feel any pride, saying that we helped ourselves, because even our faith was a gift from God. Just my opinion.

Am I to understand that one helps oneself by having remorse and contrition? This is the help we give ourselves in order to gain the gifts of God?

Remorse and contrition for what?

[Stone holm]

I think our actions "ought to be" that we completely ignore GBLT issues, focusing more fully on our own conduct. Jesus Christ said, "He that be without sin, cast the first stone..."

I sometimes wonder if those who make the threads you mention so hot are the ones who promote the GBLT cause? To me, gay sex is just icky, so I should not focus on it but focus on being sweet, kind and loving to others.

Well good question about the promotion issue. It appears to be about 50/50 as far as I can see, although both threads tend to get locked up eventually, although it looks to me like possibly those started by the antis last slightly longer. It has been argued that the Church's stance on SSM has actually aided the growing acceptance of SSM nationwide, similar to the Pope banning books instantly turns them into bestsellers type of psychology. I don't think either side is going to let us just ignore the issues anytime soon.

[tyler90az]

It will not cost me anything. If it does, I have some serious thinking(it will be short) to do about the church.

Edited July 2, 2013 by tyler90az

[Stone holm]

Maybe Tyler was worried about losing his TR if he supports Gays rights. One of the questions in the TR interview, is asking if they are affiliated with a group outside of the church. But I think this question pertains to apostates or polygamy groups.

I always respond nope, not a member of the John Birch Society, and not a member of the KKK...I usually throw in one other political group just to spice things up, but won't mention its name as don't want to get bounced from the thread or trigger a lock.