Adam-God Theory/Doctrine

[Tacenda]

I'm trying to get an answer to a question that has bothered me. Awhile ago this stumped me and people here gave an answer that is still stumping me. Is Jesus God in the flesh? Today I was reading in another forum that some on here actually participate, so this might be familiar. I c/p a portion to help me put out there my dilemma. In the Social Topics on this forum I was told my questions would be better answered on the General Discussion Topics, I'm not allowed to post new topics so I'm using this thread to put it out there. I need help on understanding since I'm extremely foggy right now. I'm sure it's my illiterate understanding of the bible that is causing this fog. Any help would be appreciated.

ETA: This was c/p by the person on the other forum from a website that may or may not be church friendly, at first glance it was.

"One of the more curious evolutions in Mormon theology is that of God. Any active member of the LDS faith will now tell you that Jehovah of the Old Testament was in fact Jesus and the father of this Jehovah-Jesus is God or Elohim. In fact, a recent proclamation confirms this changed belief. Both of these supposed beings have bodies. When this same Mormon begins to read some of the writings of the early church leaders (including the first edition of the Book of Mormon) they are generally surprised to find out that this wasn't always the doctrine of the church.

Up to the turn of the 20th Century the LDS Church taught, like the rest of Christianity, that Jehovah was the Father. With the turn of the century and new interpretations, such as that given by James Talmage in Jesus the Christ and The Articles of Faith, the concept started to change. Joseph Smith Jr. believed Jehovah and Elohim to be one in the same (The Father) and Jesus to be Jesus (The Son).

Until the early 20th Century it was taught that Jehovah was the name of God the Father, along with Elohim. Biblical scholars state that Elohim is a Hebrew plural for God and JHVH was the symbol for the unspeakable name of I AM. Even the LDS hymnist sings:

"Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah

Jesus annoited that Prophet and Seer."

W. W. Phelps, Praise to the Man

Joseph Smith taught that the two were separate individuals. Jesus and Jehovah were two personalities. Jehovah being the singular form of the name of God the Father in the Hebrew and Jesus Christ, Our supposed redeemer and His Son. Joseph Smith taught:

The Lord (Jehovah) hath spoken through Isaiah (xiii: 1), saying, "Behold my servant whom I uphold--mine elect in whom my soul delighteth;" evidently referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, chosen, or elected by the Father. (I Peter i:20). "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by Him do believe in God to serve Him in the redemption of the world, to be a covenant of the people (Isaiah xlii: 6), for a light to the Gentiles, and the glory of His people Israel, having ordained Him to be the judge of the quick until dead (Acts x: 42), that through Him forgiveness of sins might be preached (Acts xiii: 38), unto all who would be obedient unto His Gospel."(Mark xvi: 16, 17).

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, Ch. 14, p. 256

If you will put away from your midst all evil speaking, backbiting, and ungenerous thoughts and feelings' humble yourselves, and cultivate every principle of virtue and love, then will the blessings of Jehovah rest upon you, and you will yet see good and glorious days; peace will be within your gates, and prosperity in your borders; which may our heavenly Father grant in the name of Jesus Christ, is the prayer of yours in the bonds of the covenant.

Joseph Smith & Hyrum Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, Ch. 12, p. 226

...trusting in the arm of Jehovah, the Eloheim, who sits enthroned in the heavens...

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch. 5

But may the Almighty Jehovah shield and defend me from all their power, and prolong my days in peace, that I may guide His people in righteousness, until my head is white with old age. Amen.

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch. 9

Brigham Young taught this doctrine too. Brigham Young says:

We cannot even enter the temple when it is built, and perform those ordinances which lead to spiritual blessings, without performing a temporal labor. Temporal ordinances must be performed to secure the spiritual blessings the Great Supreme has in store for his faithful children. Every act is first a temporal act. The Apostle says, faith comes by hearing. What should be heard to produce faith? The preaching of the Word. For that we must have a preacher; and he is not an invisible spirit, but a temporal, ordinary man like ourselves, and subject to the same regulations and rules of life. To preach the Gospel is a temporal labor, and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is the result of a temporal labor. To be baptized is a temporal labor, both to the person administered to and the administrator. I am a living witness to the truth of this statement, for I have made my feet sore many a time, and tired myself out traveling and preaching, that by hearing the Gospel the people might have faith. The blessings we so earnestly desire will come to us by performing the manual labor required, and thus preparing all things necessary to receive the invisible blessings Jehovah has for his children.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 9:240.

The excellency of the glory of the character of Brother Joseph Smith was that he could reduce heavenly things to the understanding of the finite. When he preached to the people -- revealed the things of God, the will of God, the plan of salvation, the purposes of Jehovah, the relation in which we stand to him and all the heavenly beings, he reduced his teachings to the capacity of every man, woman, and child, making them as plain as a well-defined pathway. This should have convinced every person that ever heard of him of his divine authority and power, for no other man was able to teach as he could, and no person can reveal the things of God, but by the revelations of Jesus Christ.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:206.

John Taylor also taught the that Jesus Christ and Jehovah were separate beings:

But what is the reason for all this suffering and bloodshed, and sacrifice? We are told that without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. This is beyond our comprehension. Jesus had to take away sin by the sacrifice of himself, the just for the unjust, but, previous to this grand sacrifice, these animals had to have their blood shed as types, until the great antitype should offer up himself once for all. And as he in his own person bore the sins of all, and atoned for them by the sacrifice of himself, so there came upon him the weight and agony of ages and generations, the indescribable agony consequent upon this great sacrificial atonement wherein he bore the sins of the world, and suffered in his own person the consequences of an eternal law of God broken by man. Hence his profound grief, his indescribable anguish, his overpowering torture, all experienced in the submission to the eternal fiat of Jehovah and the requirements of an inexorable law.

John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 116

Neither Joseph Smith, nor Hyrum Smith, nor Sidney Rigdon, nor Brigham Young, nor myself, nor anybody associated with the Church at the present time, has had anything to do with the origination of these things. This work was commenced by the Almighty; it has been carried on by him, and sustained by his power, and if it is ever consummated it will be by the power and direction and sustenance of the Lord Jehovah, of Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and then through the medium of the priesthood here upon the earth. These things originated in the heavens, in the councils of the Gods; and the organization of the priesthood and the power thereof, and everything pertaining thereto, have been committed from the heavens through Joseph Smith, principally, and through others who have been associated with him in this great work.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, 24:227, 1884.

Go! to all the gospel carry,

Let the joyful news abound;

Go till every nation hear you,

Jew and gentile greet the sound;

Let the gospel,

Echo all the earth around.

Bearing seed of heavenly virtue,

Scatter it o'er all the earth;

Go! Jehovah will support you,

Gather all the sheaves of worth,

Then, with Jesus,

Reign in glory on the earth.

John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 388

Yet today the doctrine has been changed. How can such an essential doctrine be changed? During the time of Joseph Fielding Smith (1950s) the question was still being asked:

Question: Will you be kind enough to answer the following question? Who is it that speaks to Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses and the Prophets of the Old Testament? Is it our Eternal Father or Jesus who was known as Jehovah? We have had several discussions on this question, but we seem to be hopelessly divided. Some of our members maintain that it is Jesus Christ who represented the Father, others that it was the Father himself.

[Joseph Fielding Smith goes on to express the current view that Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament and the same being as Jesus.]

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 1, p. 13

Spencer W. Kimball wrote decades later that he had a difficult time accepting the doctrine:

I was surprised and perhaps shocked a little when I learned that it was the Son, Jehovah, or his messengers who led Abraham from Ur to Palestine, to Egypt, and back to the land of Palestine. I did not realize that it was Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who inspired the long line of prophets in their leadership of the people of God through those centuries.

The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 8

It seems strange that a church that has direct revelation and that claims that its founder actually spoke face to face with both God and Jesus could be so confused on such a seemingly basic doctrine. This isn't the only doctrine which is now rigidly in place despite very different origins. The Melchizedek Priesthood has also evolved over the years. Joseph Smith's own version of his visitations from God the Father and Jesus rapidly evolved during his lifetime. The first few versions didn't even mention the supposed fact that two personages where involved.

The idea of God having a body didn't come about until 1835 or shortly thereafter. Although it is one of the core doctrines of Mormonism today, it wouldn't even be included in the Mormon canon of scripture had Willard Richards not jotted it down on April 2, 1843. (It subsequently ended up as part of D&C 130). Joseph Smith apparently said the words found in D&C 130, or words similar, as a response to Elder Orson Hyde's speech in which Apostle Hyde stated that God was a warrior who dwelt in our hearts.

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions

Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith

Tenth President of Mormonism

A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums

1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

Me: Wow, I ended up c/p the whole post on this other forum. BTW, the responders were not very helpful.

Thanks Cal, to your post below. Did that take care of the problem? My own words wouldn't suffice here. I'm still not understanding if our church believes in the Trinity or not. It appeared that it did in the early church. I own an 1830's copy of the BoM. And the wording has changed in the current one. And I've gotten answers about it that haven't computed in my brain.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

i would suggest editing the post and simply summarizing the problem in your own words. The site you use publishes the endowment, which may run you into problems with the mods.

[grindael]

This is a very, very good observation by Don:

None of this information tells how we ought to deal with the fact that this idea was taught. But I think it's good to have the basic history of the idea in mind.

But I have a little to add to it.

There are some answers given by the Oracles of the Church on this matter. One was given by Joseph F. Smith at the end of the 19th Century. It was given in a letter to Mission President Ephriam H. Nye who was dealing with Elders from the RLDS Church who were using the doctrine against LDS Missionaries. This is a very interesting letter that explains how Joseph F. Smith felt about Brigham Young’s teachings about Adam. It reads, in part:

S.L. City Dec 18, 1897

President E. H. Nye, 915 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco, Cal.

Dear Brother---

On receipt of your letter of the 4th inst., I conferred with Prest. Joseph F. Smith, and we concluded to present the matter to the Council of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles. Both your letters to me, and the Article to the Fresno Republican, were read. Each of the Presidency and several of the Apostles expressed themselves well pleased with your article, that it evinced skill and valor for the Truth, and they did not see how it could be much improved. The Council did not deem it wise to lay out any line of procedure in which to deal with the subject, but felt that it is best to avoid bringing it up, and to do the best we can and as the Spirit may suggest when it is thrust upon us.

Your having got so many of the Josephites was received with marks of particular pleasure. This, like many other points of more advanced doctrine, is too precious a pearl to be cast before swine. But when the swine get hold of them, let us rescue them by the help of the Spirit as best we can. Thinking it may be convenient to you to have President Youngs sayings on that subject, I enclose a copy from his sermon in the first Volume of the Journal of Discourses.

We have been getting quite a streak of winter weather. . .

Brigham Young himself gave this advice in a Conference Address from 1854:

“I propose to speak upon a subject that does not immediately concern your or my welfare. I expect in my remarks I shall allude to things that you search after as being absolutely necessary for salvation in the kingdom of God. It is true if you are faithful, and diligent there are things that will be fully made known to you in due time--at the proper time, according to the will of the Lord…

I know by my experience, by the visions of eternity that God reveals things to individuals that do not belong to the Church at large, at present, or that does not yet belong to the mass. That I know. It is natural for the people to desire that which is not beneficial to them. It is so in temporal things, and it is so in things that [are] spiritual. That I know.

Again, the Lord blesses his people with temporal things in abundance, and wishes to bless them with knowledge and understanding that is not for the world of mankind who do not believe in him. That I also know.

I may say things this afternoon that do not belong to the world. What if I do? I know the Lord is able to close up every person's mind who have eyes but see not, hearts (p. 2) but do not understand; so I may say what I please with regard to the kingdom of God on the earth, for there is a veil over the wicked that they cannot understand the things which are for their peace. Jesus said at one time, "It is not meet to take the children's bread and give it to dogs." This saying applies to all the dispensations that have been brought forth to the children of men from the days of Adam until now.

I wish the congregation to understand in connection with my sayings thus far, that the Latter Day Saints believe in God the Father, in Jesus Christ his son, in the Holy Ghost, God's minister, and in the Celestial law; in other words, the ordinances of the house of God, which, if obeyed, are calculated to save intelligent beings, exalt them, and bring them back into the presence of their God.

After this, he then says,

You recollect I told you in the commencement, I should talk about things that did not particularly concern you and me; but the people want to hear something to advance their present knowledge; they want to find out if there is anything more for us to learn. When you have lived through eternities to come, learning continually, you may then inquire, "Bro. Brigham, is there anything more for me to learn." My reply to such an inquiry would be, "Yes there is an eternity of knowledge yet to learn."

Search after wisdom, get knowledge, and understanding, and forget it not; and be not like the fool whose eyes are on the ends of the earth, or like the misers who are around us here; they are craving, and [so] anxious after property, that if they save a picayune on the wall opposite to me there, they would run over forty dollars to secure that picayune; their eyes are on earthly riches to the neglect of riches that are more enduring.

There are a great many persons who are so anxious to learn about eternity, Gods, angels, heavens, and hells, that they neglect to learn the first lessons preparatory to learning the things they are reaching after. They will come short of them.

There is a reason that Wilford Woodruff would write this in his Journal after hearing Young’s sermon that day:

President Young preached to a congregation of several thousand out of Doors And I Believe that He preached the greatest sermon that ever was Deliverd to the Latter Day Saints since they have been a People. Elder Watt Reported. I also took minutes. (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 4, p.385, October 8, 1854).

In this sermon Brigham Young did two things. He said that what he was going to reveal was scripture, and that Adam was the Father of all the Spirits of Mankind, and the Father of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. He said,

I feel inclined here to make a little scripture. (Were I under necessity of making scripture extensively I should get Brother Heber C. Kimball to make it, and then I would quote it. I have seen him do this when any of the Elders have been pressed by their opponents, and were a little at a loss; he would make a scripture for them to suit the case, that never was in the Bible, though none the less true, and make their opponents swallow it as the words of an Apostle or one of the Prophets. The Elder would then say, "Please turn to that scripture gentlemen, and read it for yourselves." No they could (p. 7) not turn to it but they recollected it like the devil for fear of being caught). I will venture to make a little.

Young then said,

This God (the God of the Bible) is the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ precisely as he is our Father varying from mortality to immortality, from corruptible to incorruptible, and that is all the difference. He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, both body and spirit; and he is the Father of our spirits, and the Father of our flesh in the beginning. You will not dispute the words of the Apostle, that he is actually the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father of our spirits. You may add these words to it, or let it alone, it is all the same to me, that he is not only the Father of our spirits, but also of our flesh, he being the founder of that natural machinery though which we have all obtained our bodies.

And finally,

I tell you more, Adam is the Father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth; he did abide his creation, and did honor his calling and priesthood, and obeyed his master or Lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived, and died upon an earth, and then were resurrected again to immortality and eternal life…

Adam then, was a resurrected being; and I reckon our spirits and the spirits of all the human family were begotten by Adam, and born of Eve…

I tell you, when you see your Father in the heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bears your spirit, you will see mother Eve.

Everyone that doesn’t believe that Brigham Young taught that Adam was the God the Eternal Father, the Father of all men’s spirits should read this sermon. http://www.adamgod.c...gham-young.html

Who was it that spoke from the heavens and said “This is my beloved son hear ye him?” Was it God the Father? It was. … Who did beget [Jesus]? His Father, and his father is our God, and the Father of our spirits, and he is the framer of the body, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is he? He is Father Adam; Michael; the Ancient of Days. (Manuscript Addresses of Brigham Young, February 19, 1854)

He [brigham Young] said that our God was Father Adam. He was the Father of the Savior Jesus Christ – Our God was no more or less than Adam, Michael the Archangel. (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, same date)

Attended conference. A very interesting conference; for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus: That Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized. And that Adam and Eve were the natural Father and Mother of every spirit that comes to this planet or that receives tabernacles on this planet. Consequently we are brothers and sisters. And that Adam was God our Eternal Father.(Brigham Young 10/6/1854, Journal of Joseph Lee Robinson, 102-03)

[brigham Young] declared that Jesus Christ is the actual spirit and mortal son of Michael Adam God; that Michael Adam is the supreme god and father of the spirits of our mortal world. (Franklin D. Richards, Millennial Star 17:194-96, March 31, 1855)

This was not just scribal error. Young taught it. I have compiled over 50 pages of documents that affirm this, including Minutes of Meetings, Conference Addresses, Journal entries, and Church Publications.

Edited June 29, 2013 by grindael

[Tacenda]

Grindael, no wonder polygamy was easily digested as a commandment of salvation. And that many still live it outside of the main sect. I don't think it'll ever go away.

[Five Solas]

And I think that he [brigham Young] played with people's minds on the subject a bit.

Mark of a true prophet, eh Glenn101? Do you suppose 21st century prophets do less?

And if you decide the mind games aren't for you & you walk away--the fault is yours, right? Just checkin'

;0)

--Erik

[grindael]

Grindael, no wonder polygamy was easily digested as a commandment of salvation. And that many still live it outside of the main sect. I don't think it'll ever go away.

One of my favorite quotes by Brigham Young had to do with Polygamy and in turn Adam God. Young said,

I will now say, not only to our delegate to Congress, but to the Elders who leave the body of the Church, that he thought that all the cats and kittens were let out of the bag when brother Pratt went back last fall, and published the Revelation concerning the plurality of wives: it was thought there was no other cat to let out. But allow me to tell you, Elders of Israel, and delegates to Congress, you may expect an eternity of cats, that have not yet escaped from the bag. Bless your Souls, there is no end to them, for if there is not one thing, there will always be another. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p.188)*

And this one by Heber C. Kimball,

Dr. Bernhisel has just remarked, that he thought the cat was let out of the bag, when plurality was preached, but I suppose that he did not happen to think that the cat might have kittens, and the kittens grow to be cats, and thus increase to a vast number. Revelations of principles, of one truth after another, will come forth until the work of God is accomplished on the earth. We have to press forward under the banner of Christ, and the more faithful we are the sterner will be the warfare. When I related to brother Joseph the view I had of certain evil spirits in England, he said, that the closer we observe the celestial law, the more opposition we shall meet. These are my feelings, and I should feel better if you would all hearken to the counsel given, from time to time, from this stand. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.263)

And finally,

You know my comparison was, when Dr. Bernhisel was at Washington, we did not know what the Dr. would think when we let the old cat out of the bag. I told him that the old cat would have kittens, and the kittens would have cats. It is so with "Mormonism;" it will flourish and increase, and it will multiply in young "Mormons." "To be plain about it, Mr. Kimball, what did you get these wives for?" The Lord told me to get them. "What for?" To raise up young "Mormons,"—not to have women to commit whoredoms with, to gratify the lusts of the flesh, but to raise up children. (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p.91)

James Robinson would later comment in his journal, (understanding perfectly what Young & Kimball meant)

“Attended conference, a very interesting conference, for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized and that Adam and ever were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brothers and sisters and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father. This as Brother Heber remarked, was letting the cat out of the bag,...but behold ye there were some that did not believe these sayings of the Prophet Brigham, even our Beloved Brother Orson Pratt told me he did not believe it. He said he could prove by scriptures it was not correct. I felt very sorry to hear Professor Orson Pratt say that. I feared lest he should apostatize.” (Joseph Lee Robinson Journal, copied from typed transcript located at B.Y.U. Library, Special Collections, p.62.)

*Got this one from David John Buerger's article on Adam God.

On a lighter note, All this talk of cats reminds me of a book I read about BYU that involved a prank with a cat,

One of the most famous pranks at BYU was the 1956 confinement of a chloroformed cat inside the keyboard cover of the electronic bell console atop the Carl F. Eyring Science Center. When the cat awoke that evening, its frightened clamoring on the keyboard was broadcast to the entire city. The next month, students constructed a device with steel fingers, driven by a toy motor, to play the bell keys unassisted in the middle of the night. Three years later in 1959, pranksters removed the 177-pound bronze ball from the Science Center's Foucault Pendulum. Security promised to send the thieves to jail, which, the student newspaper commented, would probably guarantee an eternal watery grave for the ball. Inspired by the editorial, the pranksters put the pendulum into an air-tight canvas bag and threw it into the Botany Pond, then notified the newspaper of its location. Unfortunately, the ball suffered a deep scratch during the escapade and had to be recast at a cost of $200. ("Men Admit Bell-Ringing," DU, 17 April 1956; "Device Rigged to Ring Carillons at Midnight," DU, 13 March 1956; "Who's Got the Foucault?" DU, 3 Dec. 1959; "Security and Photos," DU, 11 Dec. 1959; "Botany Pond Yields Pendulum," DU, 29 Jan. 1960, quoted in Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, Ch.3, p.129)

Edited June 30, 2013 by grindael

[Jude2]

This was not just scribal error. Young taught it. I have compiled over 50 pages of documents that affirm this, including Minutes of Meetings, Conference Addresses, Journal entries, and Church Publications.

Grindael; This was not just scribal error.

I think at first he misspoke and then it grew from there. Have you been able to find any quotes before that April 1852 conference?

[Stone holm]

Grindael; This was not just scribal error.

I think at first he misspoke and then it grew from there. Have you been able to find any quotes before that April 1852 conference?

One of the great blessings of this Church is that we record the teachings of GAs, one of the greatest disadvantages of this Church is that we record the teachings of GAs. When things are recorded and written down, we preserve great and important truths, and when things are recorded and written down it is virtually impossible to eradicate error. Fortunately, most members only read what they are asked to read, and some don't even read that so although it is difficult to eradicate error, within a few decades unless it contains the word "socialism" it is soon forgotten. Tis a blessing of The Lord upon the Church.

[Brian 2.0]

Is there any other instance someone could point to where a prophet/leader misspoke and that unintended doctrine spread like fire throughout the church hierarchy resulting is scores of quotes about it and that same prophet/leader was unable able to stamp it out?

[Jude2]

I'm trying to get an answer to a question that has bothered me. Awhile ago this stumped me and people here gave an answer that is still stumping me. Is Jesus God in the flesh? Today I was reading in another forum that some on here actually participate, so this might be familiar. I c/p a portion to help me put out there my dilemma. In the Social Topics on this forum I was told my questions would be better answered on the General Discussion Topics, I'm not allowed to post new topics so I'm using this thread to put it out there. I need help on understanding since I'm extremely foggy right now. I'm sure it's my illiterate understanding of the bible that is causing this fog. Any help would be appreciated.

ETA: This was c/p by the person on the other forum from a website that may or may not be church friendly, at first glance it was.

"One of the more curious evolutions in Mormon theology is that of God. Any active member of the LDS faith will now tell you that Jehovah of the Old Testament was in fact Jesus and the father of this Jehovah-Jesus is God or Elohim. In fact, a recent proclamation confirms this changed belief. Both of these supposed beings have bodies. When this same Mormon begins to read some of the writings of the early church leaders (including the first edition of the Book of Mormon) they are generally surprised to find out that this wasn't always the doctrine of the church.

Up to the turn of the 20th Century the LDS Church taught, like the rest of Christianity, that Jehovah was the Father. With the turn of the century and new interpretations, such as that given by James Talmage in Jesus the Christ and The Articles of Faith, the concept started to change. Joseph Smith Jr. believed Jehovah and Elohim to be one in the same (The Father) and Jesus to be Jesus (The Son).

Until the early 20th Century it was taught that Jehovah was the name of God the Father, along with Elohim. Biblical scholars state that Elohim is a Hebrew plural for God and JHVH was the symbol for the unspeakable name of I AM. Even the LDS hymnist sings:

"Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah

Jesus annoited that Prophet and Seer."

W. W. Phelps, Praise to the Man

Joseph Smith taught that the two were separate individuals. Jesus and Jehovah were two personalities. Jehovah being the singular form of the name of God the Father in the Hebrew and Jesus Christ, Our supposed redeemer and His Son. Joseph Smith taught:

The Lord (Jehovah) hath spoken through Isaiah (xiii: 1), saying, "Behold my servant whom I uphold--mine elect in whom my soul delighteth;" evidently referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, chosen, or elected by the Father. (I Peter i:20). "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by Him do believe in God to serve Him in the redemption of the world, to be a covenant of the people (Isaiah xlii: 6), for a light to the Gentiles, and the glory of His people Israel, having ordained Him to be the judge of the quick until dead (Acts x: 42), that through Him forgiveness of sins might be preached (Acts xiii: 38), unto all who would be obedient unto His Gospel."(Mark xvi: 16, 17).

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, Ch. 14, p. 256

If you will put away from your midst all evil speaking, backbiting, and ungenerous thoughts and feelings' humble yourselves, and cultivate every principle of virtue and love, then will the blessings of Jehovah rest upon you, and you will yet see good and glorious days; peace will be within your gates, and prosperity in your borders; which may our heavenly Father grant in the name of Jesus Christ, is the prayer of yours in the bonds of the covenant.

Joseph Smith & Hyrum Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, Ch. 12, p. 226

...trusting in the arm of Jehovah, the Eloheim, who sits enthroned in the heavens...

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch. 5

But may the Almighty Jehovah shield and defend me from all their power, and prolong my days in peace, that I may guide His people in righteousness, until my head is white with old age. Amen.

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch. 9

Brigham Young taught this doctrine too. Brigham Young says:

We cannot even enter the temple when it is built, and perform those ordinances which lead to spiritual blessings, without performing a temporal labor. Temporal ordinances must be performed to secure the spiritual blessings the Great Supreme has in store for his faithful children. Every act is first a temporal act. The Apostle says, faith comes by hearing. What should be heard to produce faith? The preaching of the Word. For that we must have a preacher; and he is not an invisible spirit, but a temporal, ordinary man like ourselves, and subject to the same regulations and rules of life. To preach the Gospel is a temporal labor, and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is the result of a temporal labor. To be baptized is a temporal labor, both to the person administered to and the administrator. I am a living witness to the truth of this statement, for I have made my feet sore many a time, and tired myself out traveling and preaching, that by hearing the Gospel the people might have faith. The blessings we so earnestly desire will come to us by performing the manual labor required, and thus preparing all things necessary to receive the invisible blessings Jehovah has for his children.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 9:240.

The excellency of the glory of the character of Brother Joseph Smith was that he could reduce heavenly things to the understanding of the finite. When he preached to the people -- revealed the things of God, the will of God, the plan of salvation, the purposes of Jehovah, the relation in which we stand to him and all the heavenly beings, he reduced his teachings to the capacity of every man, woman, and child, making them as plain as a well-defined pathway. This should have convinced every person that ever heard of him of his divine authority and power, for no other man was able to teach as he could, and no person can reveal the things of God, but by the revelations of Jesus Christ.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:206.

John Taylor also taught the that Jesus Christ and Jehovah were separate beings:

But what is the reason for all this suffering and bloodshed, and sacrifice? We are told that without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. This is beyond our comprehension. Jesus had to take away sin by the sacrifice of himself, the just for the unjust, but, previous to this grand sacrifice, these animals had to have their blood shed as types, until the great antitype should offer up himself once for all. And as he in his own person bore the sins of all, and atoned for them by the sacrifice of himself, so there came upon him the weight and agony of ages and generations, the indescribable agony consequent upon this great sacrificial atonement wherein he bore the sins of the world, and suffered in his own person the consequences of an eternal law of God broken by man. Hence his profound grief, his indescribable anguish, his overpowering torture, all experienced in the submission to the eternal fiat of Jehovah and the requirements of an inexorable law.

John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 116

Neither Joseph Smith, nor Hyrum Smith, nor Sidney Rigdon, nor Brigham Young, nor myself, nor anybody associated with the Church at the present time, has had anything to do with the origination of these things. This work was commenced by the Almighty; it has been carried on by him, and sustained by his power, and if it is ever consummated it will be by the power and direction and sustenance of the Lord Jehovah, of Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and then through the medium of the priesthood here upon the earth. These things originated in the heavens, in the councils of the Gods; and the organization of the priesthood and the power thereof, and everything pertaining thereto, have been committed from the heavens through Joseph Smith, principally, and through others who have been associated with him in this great work.

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, 24:227, 1884.

Go! to all the gospel carry,

Let the joyful news abound;

Go till every nation hear you,

Jew and gentile greet the sound;

Let the gospel,

Echo all the earth around.

Bearing seed of heavenly virtue,

Scatter it o'er all the earth;

Go! Jehovah will support you,

Gather all the sheaves of worth,

Then, with Jesus,

Reign in glory on the earth.

John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 388

Yet today the doctrine has been changed. How can such an essential doctrine be changed? During the time of Joseph Fielding Smith (1950s) the question was still being asked:

Question: Will you be kind enough to answer the following question? Who is it that speaks to Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses and the Prophets of the Old Testament? Is it our Eternal Father or Jesus who was known as Jehovah? We have had several discussions on this question, but we seem to be hopelessly divided. Some of our members maintain that it is Jesus Christ who represented the Father, others that it was the Father himself.

[Joseph Fielding Smith goes on to express the current view that Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament and the same being as Jesus.]

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 1, p. 13

Spencer W. Kimball wrote decades later that he had a difficult time accepting the doctrine:

I was surprised and perhaps shocked a little when I learned that it was the Son, Jehovah, or his messengers who led Abraham from Ur to Palestine, to Egypt, and back to the land of Palestine. I did not realize that it was Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who inspired the long line of prophets in their leadership of the people of God through those centuries.

The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 8

It seems strange that a church that has direct revelation and that claims that its founder actually spoke face to face with both God and Jesus could be so confused on such a seemingly basic doctrine. This isn't the only doctrine which is now rigidly in place despite very different origins. The Melchizedek Priesthood has also evolved over the years. Joseph Smith's own version of his visitations from God the Father and Jesus rapidly evolved during his lifetime. The first few versions didn't even mention the supposed fact that two personages where involved.

The idea of God having a body didn't come about until 1835 or shortly thereafter. Although it is one of the core doctrines of Mormonism today, it wouldn't even be included in the Mormon canon of scripture had Willard Richards not jotted it down on April 2, 1843. (It subsequently ended up as part of D&C 130). Joseph Smith apparently said the words found in D&C 130, or words similar, as a response to Elder Orson Hyde's speech in which Apostle Hyde stated that God was a warrior who dwelt in our hearts.

Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions

Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith

Tenth President of Mormonism

A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums

1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.

Me: Wow, I ended up c/p the whole post on this other forum. BTW, the responders were not very helpful.

Thanks Cal, to your post below. Did that take care of the problem? My own words wouldn't suffice here. I'm still not understanding if our church believes in the Trinity or not. It appeared that it did in the early church. I own an 1830's copy of the BoM. And the wording has changed in the current one. And I've gotten answers about it that haven't computed in my brain.

You need to learn how propaganda writers work their illusions. They first plant in your mind what they want there and then place carefully pick quotes.

You quoted ""Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah

Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer."

They are using this out of context so as to trick your mind.

Praise to the man Joseph who communed with Jehovah/Jesus who anointed him a prophet before the foundation of the world.

Every Mormon who sings that understands it.

Tacenda; “The Lord (Jehovah) hath spoken through Isaiah (xiii: 1), saying,…

It is understood that Jehovah speaks as the agent of the Father/El so at times he sounds as if he is the Father.

Tacenda…..trusting in the arm of Jehovah, the Eloheim, who sits enthroned in the heavens..

“the Eloheim” means any God; Jehovah is an Eloheim/God

Tacenda; then will the blessings of Jehovah (Jesus) rest upon you, and you will yet see good and glorious days; peace will be within your gates, and prosperity in your borders; which may our heavenly Father grant in the name of Jesus Christ,

When we pray we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. We understand that the Father and the Son work together.

Tacenda “Go! to all the gospel carry…Jehovah will support you,

Gather all the sheaves of worth, Then, with Jesus,

Reign in glory on the earth.”

Taylor has simply interchanged the words Jehovah and Jesus to fit poetically.

Look at the Book of Mormon. Joseph has King Benjamin saying;

“And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning….

So yes because Jesus in his pre earth existence as Jehovah created this physical earth so he is sometimes call “the Father of heaven and earth”

Ben continues; “….And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world…” Mosiah 3

Now turn to the very last verse in the Book of Mormon. Joseph has Moroni saying;

“And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.”

So obviously Joseph Smith understood and taught that Jehovah and Jesus were one and the same.

Here’s a quote from the D&C 110, it’s a vision given in Kirtland, Ohio, April 3, 1836

“We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us… his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.”

It was Jesus who was slain and Jesus who is our advocate with the Father and Joseph calls Jesus Jehovah.

[grindael]

Hi Jude,

Young taught portions of the doctrine before 1852. He said this in 1847:

Much important and interesting instruction was given upon these And other subjects among which was the subject of the resurrection spoken upon by President Young. He said there was nothing more to be learned by the people upon the subject than what was written. The subject was made plain in the Bible and other revelations & it was not a subject that we wanted to use & at the present time as we had not come to the resurrection But there was no person except A resurrected body who held the Keys of the resurrection. Michael the Ark Angel or Ancient of Days who was Father Adam held the Keys of the resurrection. Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 3, p. 301, December 27, 1847)

In an article on the Ressurection, Robert J. Matthews wrote that, "Resurrection is a priesthood ordinance. As to the first question—how the dead are raised—we know that it is by the power of Jesus Christ because He holds the keys of death, hell, and resurrection. (found here http://rsc.byu.edu/a...ltimate-triumph ) . Young, in 1847 taught that it was Adam who held those keys. This is a clear indication (to me) that he was putting Adam ahead of Jesus. And how does this tie to Adam God? According to Young, Adam had to be resurrected himself in order to have those keys. This is what he taught in 1848:

But what is the time of our suffering in this life in comparison with Eternity After we have spent millions of Ages in Eternity & we look back upon our time here & it will ownly look like the twinkling of an eye in comparison. And so it will be in the waiting for the resurrection of our bodies. It will be for A moment as it were before we shall stand in our immortal bodies. But no person can have power to raise the dead except he holds the Keys of the Resurrection & no man can hold the keys of the resurrection or be ordained unto that power untill he has died & been raised from the dead himself. No more than A man has power to Baptize A man legally & lay hands upon him for the Holy Ghost & ordain him to the office of an Elder who has not been baptized or ordained himself.

Michael the Ark Angel (Adam) Holds the Keys of the resurrection And After A man is raised from the dead has an immortal body & recieves An ordination to hold the keys of the resurrection from under the Hands of Michael or those Having authority He then has power to raise the dead & not before.

Jesus was the first fruits of the Resurrection. "He had power to lay down his life & power to take it again" When He had lain in the grave three days An Angel, some person who was Appointed to this work appeared rolled back the stone & Called Jesus forth.(Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 3, p. 325, February 23, 1848, Winter Quarters)

It is obvious that Young is saying that Adam had been resurrected before he came to this earth. This is a necessary ingredient to the Adam God teachings. If God the Father were someone other than Adam, it would have been him (Elohim as taught today) that held the keys of the resurrection for this earth and sent the angel to resurrect Jesus. Young explained this in 1854:

I tell you more, Adam is the Father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth; he did abide his creation, and did honor his calling and priesthood, and obeyed his master or Lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived, and died upon an earth, and then were resurrected again to immortality and eternal life.

"Did he resurrect himself?" you inquire. I want to throw out a few hints upon the resurrection as it seems to come within the circuit of my ideas whether it ought to come within the circuit of my remarks or not. I believe we have already acknowledged the truth established that no person can officiate in any office he has not been subject to himself and been legally appointed to fill. That no person in this kingdom can officiate in any ordinance he himself has not obeyed; consequently no being who has not been resurrected possesses the keys of the power or resurrection. That you have been told often. Adam therefore was resurrected by someone who had been resurrected.

I will to a little further with this lest some of you will be querying, doubting, and philosophizing this away. It is true, Jesus said, "I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." I do not doubt the power of Christ; but did he prove that (p. 17) in his resurrection? No. But it is proved that an angel came and rolled away the stone from the door of the sepulcher, and did resurrect the body of the son of God.

"What angel was this?"

It is not for me to say. I do not know him. If I ever did know him it is so long since I have entirely forgotten who it was. That Jesus had power to lay down his life, and power to take it up again I do not dispute. Neither do I dispute, but what an angel came, that was sent by the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [Adam - who held the keys to resurrection] to role away the stone from the sepulcher, and resurrect the Son of God. Suffice it to say that he was some character who had himself been resurrected.(Brigham Young, Conference Address, October 8, 1854)

Did Joseph teach baptism for the dead before 1835? Young once likened his Adam teachings to Joseph teaching Baptism for the Dead:

I will give you a few words of doctrine, upon which there has been much inquiry, and with regard to which considerable ignorance exists. Br. Watt will write it, but it is not my intention to have it published, therefore pay good attention, and store it up in your memories. Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our father and God, that will be a cause [curse?] to many Elders of Israel because of their folly. With regard to it they yet grovel in darkness and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of heaven, yet the world holds it [in] dirrision [sic]. Had I revealed the doctrine of baptism from the dead instead [of] Joseph Smith there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until dooms day. But they are ignorant and stupid like the dumb as*. (Brigham Young, October 8, 1861)

Edited June 30, 2013 by grindael

[Lachoneus]

It is obvious that Young is saying that Adam had been resurrected before he came to this earth.

Please point out where Brigham Young says "Adam had been resurrected before he came to this earth." Nothing in anything you have quoted even comes close to saying that.

[DonBradley]

Please point out where Brigham Young says "Adam had been resurrected before he came to this earth." Nothing in anything you have quoted even comes close to saying that.

I believe Grindael is referring to this quote, also given above, from Brigham's October 8, 1854 General Conference sermon:

I tell you more, Adam is the Father of our spirits. He lived upon an earth; he did abide his creation, and did honor his calling and priesthood, and obeyed his master or Lord, and probably many of his wives did the same, and they lived, and died upon an earth, and then were resurrected again to immortality and eternal life.

Don

[Stone holm]

I believe Grindael is referring to this quote, also given above, from Brigham's October 8, 1854 General Conference sermon:

Don

Yeah the Journal of Discourses has this annoying habit of preserving sermons we would just as soon would evaporate.

[Jude2]

I’m bring together three different postings here;

*First my posting 148 where I said;

I want to show you something;

From Joseph Smith;

“I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible….” (King Follet dis)

And now Br. Brigham

You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not to my understanding…I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. (JD vol 2, I think)

Very very different approaches. I as a dedicated Mormon, ‘true blue through and through’ have the right and responsibility to ponder the scriptures.

*Then in posting 150 Lachoneus said; Not different at all.

* And lastly Grindael’s posting 161 where he quoted Wilford Woodruff's Journal quoting Young; “…..But there was no person except A resurrected body who held the Keys of the resurrection…”

This is why sticking to the canonized scripture is so important;

“Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” John 10 :18

*And now back Lachoneus posting “ ….. Brigham Young teaches that the man Adam was NOT literally made out of clay like an adobie brick. Otherwise Adam could not advance in intelligence.”

Well Young was wrong again, depending upon the particular shovel of dirt we are made out of the same material as adobe, plus the 53% water.

[cdowis]

Young taught portions of the doctrine before 1852. He said this in 1847:

Let's check your logic.

In an article on the Ressurection, Robert J. Matthews wrote that, "Resurrection is a priesthood ordinance. As to the first question—how the dead are raised—we know that it is by the power of Jesus Christ because He holds the keys of death, hell, and resurrection. (found here http://rsc.byu.edu/a...ltimate-triumph ) . Young, in 1847 taught that it was Adam who held those keys. This is a clear indication (to me) that he was putting Adam ahead of Jesus. And how does this tie to Adam God? According to Young, Adam had to be resurrected himself in order to have those keys. This is what he taught in 1848:

Your logic is very curious.

Let's try it in a different case ==>> Jesus Christ has the keys to the kingdom, to govern the church. Pres. Monson has the keys to govern the church. ERGO, we are placing Monson above Christ.

Do you see the problem here? May I suggest that before you make a conclusion, use this simple tool to check it out. Better yet, take a class in logic and logical fallacies. In some forums this kind of logical thinking may be acceptable, but in this forum, you will make yourself look very silly.

It is obvious that Young is saying that Adam had been resurrected before he came to this earth. This is a necessary ingredient to the Adam God teachings. If God the Father were someone other than Adam, it would have been him (Elohim as taught today) that held the keys of the resurrection for this earth and sent the angel to resurrect Jesus. Young explained this in 1854:

In my experience, when someone begins a sentence "it is obvious", that flags the sentence as baloney logic. This is the case here. With your flawed, juvenile understanding of logic, it may be obvious to you.

Sorry to be so direct, but I suggest that you might try this in other forums. It just does not work here.

[cdowis]

I’m bring together three different postings here;

*First my posting 148 where I said;

I want to show you something;

From Joseph Smith;

“I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible….” (King Follet dis)

And now Br. Brigham

You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not to my understanding…I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. (JD vol 2, I think)

Very very different approaches.

They say different things but do not contradict each other.

I as a dedicated Mormon, ‘true blue through and through’ have the right and responsibility to ponder the scriptures.

You need to be careful, because our brain can fool us.

*Then in posting 150 Lachoneus said; Not different at all.

* And lastly Grindael’s posting 161 where he quoted Wilford Woodruff's Journal quoting Young; “…..But there was no person except A resurrected body who held the Keys of the resurrection…”

This is why sticking to the canonized scripture is so important;

“Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” John 10 :18

*And now back Lachoneus posting “ ….. Brigham Young teaches that the man Adam was NOT literally made out of clay like an adobie brick. Otherwise Adam could not advance in intelligence.”

Well Young was wrong again, depending upon the particular shovel of dirt we are made out of the same material as adobe, plus the 53% water.

I guess gou got it all figured out.

Amazing.

[Stone holm]

*And now back Lachoneus posting “ ….. Brigham Young teaches that the man Adam was NOT literally made out of clay like an adobie brick. Otherwise Adam could not advance in intelligence.”

Well Young was wrong again, depending upon the particular shovel of dirt we are made out of the same material as adobe, plus the 53% water.

Little confusing on who was calling who wrong. Brigham Young was referring to two different things: 1) that Adam wasn't created on this Earth; and 2) that Adam was formed like somebody working with modeling clay which was then turned into a living being.

[Jude2]

Cdowis quoting me ; I as a dedicated Mormon, ‘true blue through and through’ have the right and responsibility to ponder the scriptures.

Cdowis; You need to be careful, because our brain can fool us.

I’m sorry that sounds a little pretentious of me but Sam had assumed I had “lost a sense of respect for anything sacred” and was well on my way to apostasy.

Stone; “Adam was formed like somebody working with modeling clay which was then turned into a living being”

What we are is clay and spirit.

“ For as the body without the spirit is dead…” James 2

A brick lacks a spirit, that’s the difference.

Stone; Little confusing on who was calling who wrong

I think you’re sort of missing my point.

Joseph did not run away from the scriptures he built his doctrine upon them.

Brigham discards them and then fabricates whole new concepts.

Joseph put all of his doctrinal revelations before the Counsel for approval and then had the Saints raise their hands to sustain and canonized them.

Bingham just started making pronouncements.

Br Young was wrong, he was wrong about his theories and he was wrong in the way he handled giving them to the church.

Can I be a faithful member of the Church and still hold that position, more than that would the Lord allow one of Prophets to teach something wrong.

The brother of Jared went for 4 years without praying and then was surprised to find out God had a finger. Joseph took his seer stone and tried to find treasure, he was often mislead by the “….the persuasions of men” but the Lord was not “displeased notwithstanding (his) follies”.

The Church was not led astray, the majority of people did not accept his theories and the following prophets reaffirmed the truth as Joseph Smith taught it.

Now had I lived at the time of Young and he asked me to go down to the Dixie to settle, I would have gone. I would have followed his direction but that does not mean I have to believe everything that fell out of his mouth.

[Calm]

Please use the quote function, all you have to do is highlight the quote and then click on the little bubble that is about midway on the bottom row of the reply options.

It is too confusing to read it as it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

[Stone holm]

Please use the quote function, all you have to do is highlight the quote and then click on the little bubble that is about midway on the bottom row of the reply options.

It is too confusing to read it as it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

I thought it was just me.

[Brian 2.0]

Please use the quote function, all you have to do is highlight the quote and then click on the little bubble that is about midway on the bottom row of the reply options.

It is too confusing to read it as it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

+1000

[Jude2]

Please use the quote function, all you have to do is highlight the quote and then click on the little bubble that is about midway on the bottom row of the reply options.

It is too confusing to read it as it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

Really, I hate using those quote things but I'll try harder.

[Stone holm]

Really, I hate using those quote things but I'll try harder.

That's the path to exaltation.

[ERayR]

2) that Adam was formed like somebody working with modeling clay which was then turned into a living being.

No Brigham was "not" saying that Adam was formed like somebody working with modeling clay which was then turned into a living being. He said if that had been the case he would still be an adobe i.e. he would never have been alive.

Edited July 4, 2013 by ERayR