Evolution And Entropy, Anybody Know F. Kent Nielsen

[thesometimesaint]

Evolution. That one word encompasses so much some true, some questionable and some not true. To say that opposition to parts of this is in error is in itself in error. Why do you think it is an all or nothing proposition? As pointed out there are anomalous artifacts that can not be fit into an all or nothing proposition which are ignored or rejected by the adherents of evolution.

thesometimessaint has posted that "All that is necessary is come up with a satisfactory theory that takes into account all that is known about the subject in question". Alright evolution proponents come up with a theory that accounts for these anomalies.

OK. Here is the best explanation using all that is known about this topic(A theory) for the objects. They are frauds. In the same realm of frauds as the Piltdown man.

[Calm]

So, back to the OP....anybody know professor Nielsen well enough and feel motivated enough to contact him to:

1-see if he still feels the same

2-if so, has he heard the arguments against his position

3-if so, does he still stand by his article

4-if so, why

5-if not, would he be willing to write or speak about it

....?

It probably would be kindness to leave the man alone if his health is bad, as Dr. Peterson stated. He has also suffered the loss of his wife in 2009 and quite recently the loss of one of his children who left a family in March. He probably has many other things that are of more importance to him at the moment. Edited May 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

OK. Here is the best explanation using all that is known about this topic(A theory) for the objects. They are frauds. In the same realm of frauds as the Piltdown man.

Exhibit # ___ What did I say, first dismiss out of hand. You are certainly consistent.

Edited May 21, 2013 by ERayR

[SeattleGrunge]

It probably would be kindness to leave the man alone if his health is bad, as Dr. Peterson stated. He has also suffered the loss of his wife in 2009 and quite recently the loss of one of his children who left a family in March. He probably has many other things that are of more importance to him at the moment.

Thanks for the extra info. BTW, Dr. P said, "isn't in particularly good health."

[thesometimesaint]

Exhibit # ___ What did I say, first dismiss out of hand. You are certainly consistent.

The moon was at one time believed to have been made out of green cheese. Do you support that idea or do you dismiss it?

[ERayR]

The moon was at one time believed to have been made out of green cheese. Do you support that idea or do you dismiss it?

Exhibit #___ Ridicule

Keep it up TSS standard operating procedure.

Edited May 21, 2013 by ERayR

[Robert F. Smith]

To clarify, I'm saying that I am in opposition to the blanket statement that any belief in evolution is against the church's official position and there is no room for a middle ground. Many Saints that I deal with feel that way, and many times they cite that article as proof that their position is correct.

Yes there are many people who believe all kinds of things that are not true. The article in question is not an article on evolution, although it mentions the subject in passing. It does not represent an official Church position (Yes, I know that there are people who actually believe that if something appears in a Church magazine or manual it must be official). The Church has no official position on evolution. Otherwise we would know about it, and then the entire BYU biology faculty (which teaches evolution) might be in trouble.

[bu11fr0g]

I took the history of science class and found it to be the best class that I ever took. It was taught with scientists. Nielsen was old earth at that time when there was a debate about the age of the earth.

But the class was on epistemiology more than anything. It concentrated on how science could be caught in a supposedly inviolable concept of truth. Religious people would bring it into religious structure. Problems would then happen when the science du jour was upheaved.

[ERayR]

I looked at your links. There are only two real possibilities. One is that scientists are lying, that coal isn't really hundred's of millions years old. Or that by some means clearly man made manufactured objects were placed in that coal.

It is very telling that these are the only two possibilities you can come up with. It indicates to me either a closed mind or a lack of imagination.

Those are certainly two possibilities but I can think of at least two more. One is they are real artifacts in a coal seam hundreds of millions of years old. Or that strata dating is not correct.

Just curious. How do you suggest someone could take those man made objects and place them in the middle of a chunk of coal in the middle of a coal seam over one hundred feed in the ground and have them found 50 or 100 years apart?

I will be one of the first to agree that a hoax is possible. In fact I am one of the first to suspect hoaxes. But as I find more and more of these anomalies hoax as an answer becomes very difficult to defend. As I have already stated I am skeptical about the ancient aliens answer (however it is a possibility) but this group has certainly brought to light a myriad of things that need to be explored.

[thesometimesaint]

It is very telling that these are the only two possibilities you can come up with. It indicates to me either a closed mind or a lack of imagination.

Those are certainly two possibilities but I can think of at least two more. One is they are real artifacts in a coal seam hundreds of millions of years old. Or that strata dating is not correct.

Just curious. How do you suggest someone could take those man made objects and place them in the middle of a chunk of coal in the middle of a coal seam over one hundred feed in the ground and have them found 50 or 100 years apart?

I will be one of the first to agree that a hoax is possible. In fact I am one of the first to suspect hoaxes. But as I find more and more of these anomalies hoax as an answer becomes very difficult to defend. As I have already stated I am skeptical about the ancient aliens answer (however it is a possibility) but this group has certainly brought to light a myriad of things that need to be explored.

I have no desire to be insulting, and do apologize that it came across like that. I don't find the evidence(artifacts) so far presented for advanced human or alien civilizations that are many millions of years old, as anything other than a hoax. Is it possible that these artifacts are indeed many millions of years old, or that the earth is indeed only a few hundreds, or few thousands of years old? Most anything is possible, given enough leeway on how possible is defined. However it is overwhelmingly more probable that someone(s) in the relatively recent past is trying to fool us.

[ERayR]

I have no desire to be insulting, and do apologize that it came across like that. I don't find the evidence(artifacts) so far presented for advanced human or alien civilizations that are many millions of years old, as anything other than a hoax. Is it possible that these artifacts are indeed many millions of years old, or that the earth is indeed only a few hundreds, or few thousands of years old? Most anything is possible, given enough leeway on how possible is defined. However it is overwhelmingly more probable that someone(s) in the relatively recent past is trying to fool us.

It simply seems short sighted to me to only entertain the two possibilities that are dismissive before some serious exploration. I keep using the artifacts in the coal but there are certainly many more different examples. I use the artifacts in the coal because it is difficult for me to see how someone could get something into the middle of a coal seam over one hundred feet under the ground and not leave evidence. In addition these finds are on different continents separated by decades.

[thesometimesaint]

It simply seems short sighted to me to only entertain the two possibilities that are dismissive before some serious exploration. I keep using the artifacts in the coal but there are certainly many more different examples. I use the artifacts in the coal because it is difficult for me to see how someone could get something into the middle of a coal seam over one hundred feet under the ground and not leave evidence. In addition these finds are on different continents separated by decades.

Hoaxes of all types are known throughout all of recorded history. In science it is common practice to have the claimant provide the argument(s) for the claim.

IE: Until very recently the Higgs Boson was nothing more that a theoretical construct. It was assumed to exist, and exhibit certain characteristics. But it wasn't until it was actually found and acted like the models predicted that it was established as a fact to exist. So far no satisfactory evidence, or valid scientific theory for these claimed ancient artifacts has been proffered. It is like coming across a Chevy Corvette in the middle of the desert, and claiming the lizards built and put it there.