Vatican Painting From 1494 Cleaned, Discovery Undeneath Said To Depict American Indians On Horses Before Conquistadors.

[Sevenbak]

There's an interesting article released by the Vatican, supposedly showing native americans on horseback in this very early painting, long before the introduction of horses by the conquistadors. Interesting speculation, regardless...

It hasn’t drawn much attention yet, but the Vatican has quietly announced the discovery of what it believes is the first artistic representation of native Americans.

A detail of a fresco by the Renaissance artist Pinturicchio, discovered during restoration work in the Vatican Museums, depicts men dressed only in feathered headdresses who appear to be dancing, and another on horseback.

The painting was completed in 1494, shortly after Christopher Columbus returned from the New World with a detailed description of natives who painted themselves, danced and gave gifts of parrots.

For hundreds of years, the frescoed figures were hiding in plain sight – sort of. They are part of the background in a lunette fresco titled “The Resurrection,” noted for its depiction of Pope Alexander VI, the infamous Rodrigo Borgia, who was elected in 1492.

The detail was obscured by centuries of soot and grime, and came to life only recently when the fresco underwent a careful cleaning by Museum experts.

http://www.johnthavis.com/vatican-fresco-cleaning-reveals-images-of-native-americans#.UYXjqqXbXIa

[mfbukowski]

It would be interesting to see the rest of the fresco.

I wonder what the golden globes depict.

[volgadon]

I don't know that much can be made of it yet.

[Sevenbak]

It would be interesting to see the rest of the fresco.

I wonder what the golden globes depict.

Maybe these things...

Mysterious Yellow Orbs Discovered by the Hundreds Under Ancient Temple (Quetzacoatl Temple)

[mfbukowski]

LOL I don't think so.

The full painting can be found here: http://www.thehistor...o-1492-1494.jpg

The globes are part of a decorative "frame" surrounding the figure of the resurrected Christ.

What might be interesting is that the Native Americans appear in the background in the distance- surprising since of course the resurrection did not happen in the Americas.

Perhaps they were added later? Or is it just a fanciful background?

In the left background, there are people on horseback in what appears to be European dress- with fanciful European style castles as well - so the scene appears to be just a fanciful background.

I don't see any Native Americans on horses anywhere in the painting!

Edited May 5, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Sevenbak]

Thanks for the full painting. I wish it were higher res to see the detail.

Perhaps they represent an African tribe, and the Vatican is just assuming they are native americans.

Is the photo you posted pre-restoration?

Edited May 5, 2013 by Sevenbak

[mfbukowski]

No- wait! Those castles in the left background are clearly LDS temples with Moroni on the steeples!

[volgadon]

LOL I don't think so.

The full painting can be found here: http://www.thehistor...o-1492-1494.jpg

The globes are part of a decorative "frame" surrounding the figure of the resurrected Christ.

No, they and the recent temple discovery must be akin to this.

[volgadon]

I don't see any Native Americans on horses anywhere in the painting!

Look to the left of the horse, there is a human head with a headdress. On the other hand, the helmeted figure on the right is clearly European.

Edited May 5, 2013 by volgadon

[mfbukowski]

Look to the left of the horse, there is a human head with a headdress. On the other hand, the helmeted figure on the right is clearly European.

I saw that but discounted it because it isn't clear that the figure is on the horse- because it is obscured by the red cloak in the foreground.

But after reading the article , I discovered this:

Considering how the Pope spent a great deal of 1493 dealing with the ramifications of Columbus’ discovery, and how all these political issues were framed in terms of who should get to convert the newly-found pagans to Christianity, it makes sense that they would make a cameo in this fresco.

which seemingly explains what the Indians are doing in Europe!

[mfbukowski]

Is the photo you posted pre-restoration?

Dunno for sure but I suspect not- since the source was an article (linked above) about the restored painting.

[volgadon]

I saw that but discounted it because it isn't clear that the figure is on the horse- because it is obscured by the red cloak in the foreground.

You are right, we aren't even sure that the horses are not allegorical, which would be typical for renaissance art.

[Calm]

Is it supposed to be an historical work or something else?

Horses were brought over with Columbus, weren't they? So might be included in any depiction of a ceremony or celebration? And I can't think of any reason why the artist would have assumed they didn't have them, considering the widespread nature of horses in the Old World...wasn't there the belief that Columbus had simply reached the other side of the Asian continent at that time? When did they start talking about it as the "New World" and understood it to be a different continent?

Edited May 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[Glenn101]

Is it supposed to be an historical work or something else?

Horses were brought over with Columbus, weren't they? So might be included in any depiction of a ceremony or celebration? And I can't think of any reason why the artist would have assumed they didn't have them, considering the widespread nature of horses in the Old World...wasn't there the belief that Columbus had simply reached the other side of the Asian continent at that time? When did they start talking about it as the "New World" and understood it to be a different continent?

Columbus brought over horses on his second voyage in 1493 when he was given seventeen ships. If the painting was done in 1494 it would be possible that a painter would have been able to get a native to sit on one of those horses to be included in the painting.

Glenn

[volgadon]

Columbus brought over horses on his second voyage in 1493 when he was given seventeen ships. If the painting was done in 1494 it would be possible that a painter would have been able to get a native to sit on one of those horses to be included in the painting.

Glenn

If it is 1494, then Pinturicchio would not have actually seen an Indian with his own eyes.

[bcuzbcuz]

There's an interesting article released by the Vatican, supposedly showing native americans on horseback in this very early painting, long before the introduction of horses by the conquistadors. Interesting speculation, regardless...

It hasn’t drawn much attention yet, but the Vatican has quietly announced the discovery of what it believes is the first artistic representation of native Americans.

A detail of a fresco by the Renaissance artist Pinturicchio, discovered during restoration work in the Vatican Museums, depicts men dressed only in feathered headdresses who appear to be dancing, and another on horseback.

The painting was completed in 1494, shortly after Christopher Columbus returned from the New World with a detailed description of natives who painted themselves, danced and gave gifts of parrots.

For hundreds of years, the frescoed figures were hiding in plain sight – sort of. They are part of the background in a lunette fresco titled “The Resurrection,” noted for its depiction of Pope Alexander VI, the infamous Rodrigo Borgia, who was elected in 1492.

The detail was obscured by centuries of soot and grime, and came to life only recently when the fresco underwent a careful cleaning by Museum experts.

http://www.johnthavi...ns#.UYXjqqXbXIa

I'm so glad we live in a modern age where digital enhancement and vivid imaginations can serve up horsepucky like it was steak. Instead of native people on horses, I'd rather have an explanation of the giant feathered corn on the cob in the left of the picture. Or how about a scriptural explanation of the bodiless floating heads around the Christ figure?

[Calm]

I love the first comment: "The date of 1494 possibly contradicts the content, unless the artist was working from imagination -- the Spanish introduced horses (and pigs) to the Americas."

I tend to lean to the side of imagination considering it apparently depicts the Resurrection with Pope Alexander IV (time traveling pope?) present at that time, along with some very fashion forward Roman guards. Plus the NAs look a bit washed out....perhaps they stayed in their cabins too much due to seasickness so they could be there in time to celebrate Christ's overcoming of the Tomb.

[Sevenbak]

I guess I'm just not seeing the dancing corncob.

[bcuzbcuz]

I guess I'm just not seeing the dancing corncob.

On second thought, it looks more like a feather duster, Hidden for all these years, behind....you guessed it, layers of dust.

[Nathair/|\]

It would be interesting to see the rest of the fresco.

I wonder what the golden globes depict.

Dragonballs?

[mfbukowski]

I love the first comment: "The date of 1494 possibly contradicts the content, unless the artist was working from imagination -- the Spanish introduced horses (and pigs) to the Americas."

I tend to lean to the side of imagination considering it apparently depicts the Resurrection with Pope Alexander IV (time traveling pope?) present at that time, along with some very fashion forward Roman guards. Plus the NAs look a bit washed out....perhaps they stayed in their cabins too much due to seasickness so they could be there in time to celebrate Christ's overcoming of the Tomb.

It was common practice to put whoever was paying for the painting in all sorts of scenes- like a nativity, say.

And you bring up some excellent reasons as well to question the historical accuracy of the painting. What can I say- we live in a scientific age where we have photographs and expect everything to be scientifically accurate. As we see every day on this board, literalism about scientific accuracy is rampant in our culture -if we see a picture, it is obviously not to be doubted as being "accurate" and historical.

It's really sad that we have lost the power of imagination and have become so literal.

But clearly that is what is happening here- because there are Indians in the painting - and horses- it becomes "evidence" that there were horses in the New World before Columbus.

I don't know which is sadder, the view that if there is a picture it must be "true" or on the other hand the need for scientific evidence for every assertion.

[Sevenbak]

Why is it sadder to think there might have actually been horses in the ancient new world as opposed to believing what accepted science tells us is truth?

Whether or not the painting depicts actual american indians, or associated horses is still undetermined, but I do find the new discovery interesting, regardless of it's meaning, it being so close to Columbus' return.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Sevenbak

[volgadon]

Why is it sadder to think there might have actually been horses in the ancient new world as opposed to believing what accepted science tells us is truth?

Whether or not the painting depicts actual american indians, or associated horses is still undetermined, but I do find the new discovery interesting, regardless of it's meaning, it being so close to Columbus' return.

I thin that leaping upon this as any sort of evidence for horsesin the Americas is premature, to put it softly.

[Sevenbak]

I thin that leaping upon this as any sort of evidence for horsesin the Americas is premature, to put it softly.

The post was not intended as evidence, but to engage conversation on the subject. No Lord's a Leapin' to be found here.

[volgadon]

Personally, I think it likely that horses are depicted here as symbols of primitive, brute force and unbridled passion, which is likely what the Indians are doing there as well.