D&C 90:10

[inquiringmind]

I'm trying to figure out what that means.

And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation. (D&C 90:10.)

If there were an "and" in there I'd take it to mean Gentile and Israelite, but without the "and" it almost seems like it might be saying that the Israelite nations are heathen.

Does anyone have any idea what this passage means?

[mfbukowski]

All will be convinced- "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.

I think you are over-thinking it. It just means there will no longer be any doubts-- for anyone.

[inquiringmind]

All will be convinced- "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.

I think you are over-thinking it. It just means there will no longer be any doubts-- for anyone.

Actually, it was D&C 109 that started me thinking about this.

stakes besides this one which thou hast appointed, that the gathering of thy ^bpeople may roll on in great power and majesty, that thy work may be cut ^cshort in righteousness.

Gentiles.

scattered upon the ^bmountains for a long time, in a ^ccloudy and dark day.

Jerusalem, from this hour, may begin to be redeemed;

David;

Judah may begin to return to the ^blands which thou didst give to Abraham, their father.

remnants of Jacob, who have been cursed and smitten because of their transgression, be ^bconverted from their wild and savage condition to the fulness of the everlasting gospel;

67 And may all the scattered remnants of ^aIsrael, who have been driven to the ends of the earth, come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the Messiah, and be redeemed from ^boppression, and rejoice before thee.

http://www.lds.org/s....60?lang=eng#59

The intro says the words of the prayer were given to Joseph by revelation, and "identified with the Gentiles" is intriguing.

What does it mean?

Are the British, the Welsh, the Scotch, and the Irish (who brought the Bible to North America across many waters) Gentiles, or only "identified" with the Gentiles?

Are they of the tribe of Ephraim, or only adopted into the tribe of Ephraim?

And why is there no "and" in D&C 90:10?

Is it saying that "heathen nations" compose "the House of Joseph"?

P.S. Has anyone of British descent ever received a patriarchal blessing in which they were told they were not literally descended from one of the tribes?

Edited May 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Robert F. Smith]

And why is there no "and" in D&C 90:10?

Just like the Book of Mormon manuscripts, the revelations (in this case on Mar 8, 1833) were taken down by scribes as Joseph spoke. I just looked at an early copy of D&C 90:10 online in the Joseph Smith Papers Project and there is no punctuation. One can insert a serial comma, as is done today, and assume that the series is differentiating entities.

Is it saying that "heathen nations" compose "the House of Joseph"?

Unlikely.

[inquiringmind]

Just like the Book of Mormon manuscripts, the revelations (in this case on Mar 8, 1833) were taken down by scribes as Joseph spoke. I just looked at an early copy of D&C 90:10 online in the Joseph Smith Papers Project and there is no punctuation. One can insert a serial comma, as is done today, and assume that the series is differentiating entities.

Unlikely.

So are the Anglo/Saxon people Gentiles (with maybe some literal descendents of Israel hidden among them), or Literal descendents of Israel (with maybe some Gentile blood mixed in)?

Edited May 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

In other words, when latter day scripture speaks of the Anglo/Saxons who brought the Bible (the book of the Jew) across the great waters as "Gentiles," is it speaking figuratively?

Are they Israelites being figuratively "identified with the Gentiles" (and could that be hinted at in the wording of D&C 109:60)?

Or is latter day scripture being literal when it speaks of them (identifies them?) as Gentiles, and are they only "numbered among the house of Israel" (and does that expression, used in 1 Nephi 14:2 imply that they're not literally of the house of Israel)?

And when D&C 90:10 says "the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation," is it saying that nations composing "the house of Joseph" (literal descendents of Israel) are (or were, in Joseph's day) in some sense "heathen"?

Edited May 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[CV75]

I'm trying to figure out what that means.

And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation. (D&C 90:10.)

If there were an "and" in there I'd take it to mean Gentile and Israelite, but without the "and" it almost seems like it might be saying that the Israelite nations are heathen.

Does anyone have any idea what this passage means?

The modern nation for the birthplace of the Restoration is the USA, founded by people of European and British stock. It is located on the covenant lands of inheritance for the people of Joseph, who were on the American continents prior to the establishment of newer nation.

The establishment of the Josephite lands of inheritance was made by covenant to Joseph and his descendants through Lehi as explained in the Book or Mormon. The establishment of the USA, while mentioned in the Book of Mormon, was not made by covenant to Joseph but as a means for the Gospel to come from outside that covenant to Israel (which had broken it) in the latter days. The USA is a Gentile nation because it was established outside of the covenant with Israel, in what I believe is a rescue mechanism.

The people in D&C 90:109 are identified with this newer, American nation and not with the Josephites, who are identified with apostate Israel and the broken ancient covenants. The people of the Gentle nation are to bring the Gospel to the people of this Israelite nation.

The Book of Mormon contains promises for these Gentiles, including their incorporation into the covenant with Israel. Note that one can be of the blood of Israel with ties to the covenant involving the lands of inheritance and also be a member of the Gentile nation in which the Gospel if Restored and from which it is brought to the Jews / Israel, as Joseph Smith and other Ephraimites were (whether by blood or by adoption).

[ERayR]

So are the Anglo/Saxon people Gentiles (with maybe some literal descendents of Israel hidden among them), or Literal descendents of Israel (with maybe some Gentile blood mixed in)?

IMNSHO it is more of the latter.

[Stone holm]

Joseph was the fruitful bough which ran over the Garden wall. The Stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon. The two tribes which will lead in pushing forth the Gospel in the latter days are the sub tribes of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh which are the two horns of the Unicorn which is the symbol of Joseph. I suspect from all this that the Native American nations and the European are the heathen nations. However, given the recent comments regarding Africa and Asia in the Latter day importance, my guess is this is all up for grabs right now.

[inquiringmind]

I'm of Irish, English, and German ancestry.

Does that mean that I'm genetically related to the ancient inhabitants of the northern kingdom of Israel?

Has anyone of my ancestry ever been told (in a patriarchal blessing) that they were being adopted into the commonwealth of Israel?

[mfbukowski]

I'm of Irish, English, and German ancestry.

Does that mean that I'm genetically related to the ancient inhabitants of the northern kingdom of Israel?

Has anyone of my ancestry ever been told (in a patriarchal blessing) that they were being adopted into the commonwealth of Israel?

Patriarchal blessings are about what tribe you are symbolically adopted into- not literal genealogy.

When you think about it- they could not possibly be. How many ancestors have you had? Which one gave you your "tribe"?

We are probably all related to all the tribes of Israel through one ancestor or another. The value of P. Blessings is what they tell you about your life- not some literal genealogy.

Edited May 6, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Joseph was the fruitful bough which ran over the Garden wall. The Stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon. The two tribes which will lead in pushing forth the Gospel in the latter days are the sub tribes of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh which are the two horns of the Unicorn which is the symbol of Joseph.

It would help him if you gave the scriptural references for these.

And what unicorn has two horns? I think you got that confused

Deuteronomy 33:17 “His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

Edited May 6, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

And what unicorn has two horns?

Apparently the saola:

http://piperbasenji....rare-saola.html

Still seems like one of those fundamental paradoxes, an oxymoron.

Surely it would be a duocorn*** or something like that....

***take your pick in constructing a name using various prefixes for indicating "two" and prefixing it to "corn" (meaning "horn"):

Prefixes meaning two: du-, bi-, bis-, bin-, second-, di-, dy-, duo-. dis-, dvi-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeral_prefix#Table_of_number_prefixes_in_English

Hmmm...I kind of like "dvicorn"

Edited May 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[CV75]

In other words, when latter day scripture speaks of the Anglo/Saxons who brought the Bible (the book of the Jew) across the great waters as "Gentiles," is it speaking figuratively?

Are they Israelites being figuratively "identified with the Gentiles" (and could that be hinted at in the wording of D&C 109:60)?

Or is latter day scripture being literal when it speaks of them (identifies them?) as Gentiles, and are they only "numbered among the house of Israel" (and does that expression, used in 1 Nephi 14:2 imply that they're not literally of the house of Israel)?

And when D&C 90:10 says "the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation," is it saying that nations composing "the house of Joseph" (literal descendents of Israel) are (or were, in Joseph's day) in some sense "heathen"?

I believe it is speaking of people being of a nation that is not established by covenant as was Israel, whether they have the blood of Israel in their veins or not. Once the covenant with Israel was broken, almost by definition all that were left to work with were the Gentile nations.

I understand D&C 109:60 to mean that the covenant people can live in a Gentile nation, whether they are living the covenant or not, or whether they are restoring it or coming into it, or whether they are adopted into or of the covenant lineage.

I understand D&C 90:10 to be a list of separately identified groups, not different descriptors for the same group. But that doesn’t prevent a literal descendant of Israel from also being a heathen.

[Stone holm]

It would help him if you gave the scriptural references for these.

And what unicorn has two horns? I think you got that confused

Would have to disagree with you about Patriarchal blessings being symbolic adoptions -- the Patriarch declares the lineage, if it is by adoption he specifically says so. Yeah, its kind of odd about the Unicorn having two horns will look up the reference to the horns.

[Stone holm]

Would have to disagree with you about Patriarchal blessings being symbolic adoptions -- the Patriarch declares the lineage, if it is by adoption he specifically says so. Yeah, its kind of odd about the Unicorn having two horns will look up the reference to the horns.

From Wikipedia:

Biblical

The aurochs

Unicorn mosaic on a 1213 church floor in Ravenna

An animal called the re’em (Hebrew: רְאֵם‎) is mentioned in several places in the Hebrew Bible, often as a metaphor representing strength. "The allusions to the re'em as a wild, un-tamable animal of great strength and agility, with mighty horn or horns (Job xxxix. 9–12; Ps. xxii. 21, xxix. 6; Num. xxiii. 22, xxiv. 8; Deut. xxxiii. 17; comp. Ps. xcii. 11), best fit the aurochs (Bos primigenius). This view is supported by the Assyrian rimu, which is often used as a metaphor of strength, and is depicted as a powerful, fierce, wild mountain bull with large horns."^[13] This animal was often depicted in ancient Mesopotamian art in profile, with only one horn visible.

The translators of the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611) followed the Greek Septuagint (monokeros) and the Latin Vulgate (unicornis)^[14] and employed unicorn to translate re'em, providing a recognizable animal that was proverbial for its un-tamable nature. The American Standard Version translates this term "wild ox" in each case.

• "God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."—Numbers 23:22
  
• "God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."—Numbers 24:8
  
• "His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth."—Deuteronomy 33:17
  
• "Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?"—Job 39:9–12
  
• "Save me from the lion's mouth; for thou hast heard me from the horns of unicorns."—Psalms 22:21
  
• "He maketh them [the cedars of Lebanon] also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn."—Psalms 29:6
  
• "But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of the unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil."—Psalms 92:10
  
• "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with their bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness."—Isaiah 34:7
  

The classical Jewish understanding of bible did not identify the Re'em animal as the unicorn. Instead, the Tahash animal (Exodus 25, 26, 35, 36 and 39; Numbers 4; and Ezekiel 16:10) was thought to be a kosher unicorn with a coat of many colors that only existed in biblical times.^{[citation needed]}

[ERayR]

Patriarchal blessings are about what tribe you are symbolically adopted into- not literal genealogy.

When you think about it- they could not possibly be. How many ancestors have you had? Which one gave you your "tribe"?

We are probably all related to all the tribes of Israel through one ancestor or another. The value of P. Blessings is what they tell you about your life- not some literal genealogy.

And what specific tribal blessing are yours.

[Stone holm]

And what specific tribal blessing are yours.

Its my understanding that it doesn't quite work like that -- ack, ERayR am actually responding to the quote you responded to -- the lineage is declared but apparently it is like a gene that floats around so you can have two tribes in the same family, etc. sort of like red hair, I guess, but most of those coming into the Church in the latter days are delcared to be of the lineage of either the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh -- the other tribal declarations are relatively rare. The tribal blessings are the patriarchal blessings that Israel gave to his children in the OT.

[ERayR]

Would have to disagree with you about Patriarchal blessings being symbolic adoptions -- the Patriarch declares the lineage, if it is by adoption he specifically says so. Yeah, its kind of odd about the Unicorn having two horns will look up the reference to the horns.

Not necessarily. The ones I have heard and observe (as the father of a dozen and grandfather of more) he pronounces a tribal linage upon whose specific tribal blessings your have the right to call upon. For specific tribal blessings see the blessings pronounced by Israel upon each of his heirs.

[ERayR]

Its my understanding that it doesn't quite work like that -- ack, ERayR am actually responding to the quote you responded to -- the lineage is declared but apparently it is like a gene that floats around so you can have two tribes in the same family, etc. sort of like red hair, I guess, but most of those coming into the Church in the latter days are delcared to be of the lineage of either the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh -- the other tribal declarations are relatively rare. The tribal blessings are the patriarchal blessings that Israel gave to his children in the OT.

It is not genetic but spiritual. Those who are pronounced as from the tribe of Ephraim are eligible to partake of the blessings of Ephraim and those from Manasseh, the blessings of Manasseh.

Edited May 6, 2013 by ERayR

[mfbukowski]

Apparently the saola:

http://piperbasenji....rare-saola.html

Still seems like one of those fundamental paradoxes, an oxymoron.

Surely it would be a duocorn*** or something like that....

***take your pick in constructing a name using various prefixes for indicating "two" and prefixing it to "corn" (meaning "horn"):

Prefixes meaning two: du-, bi-, bis-, bin-, second-, di-, dy-, duo-. dis-, dvi-

https://en.wikipedia...ixes_in_English

Hmmm...I kind of like "dvicorn"

LOL!

That's the way it is with those PAIR-o-doxes I guess.

Edited May 6, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Its my understanding that it doesn't quite work like that -- ack, ERayR am actually responding to the quote you responded to -- the lineage is declared but apparently it is like a gene that floats around so you can have two tribes in the same family, etc. sort of like red hair, I guess, but most of those coming into the Church in the latter days are delcared to be of the lineage of either the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh -- the other tribal declarations are relatively rare. The tribal blessings are the patriarchal blessings that Israel gave to his children in the OT.

Yeah those floating genes get tricky I guess.

You receive whatever blessings of whatever tribe the Lord sees fit to give. That's all that makes sense to me.

Edited May 6, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

It is not genetic but spiritual. Those who are pronounced as from the tribe of Ephraim are eligible to partake of the blessings of Ephraim and those from Manasseh, the blessings of Manasseh.

Yup! I think it also may have to do with the pre-existence.

Edited May 6, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Stone holm]

It is not genetic but spiritual. Those who are pronounced as from the tribe of Ephraim are eligible to partake of the blessings of Ephraim and those from Manasseh, the blessings of Manasseh.

Actually its both. Brigham Young indicated that when a true gentile converted that the confer real of the Holy Ghost actually could be a bit traumatic as physical change actually occurred but he indicated such was a rare event .

[ERayR]

Actually its both. Brigham Young indicated that when a true gentile converted that the confer real of the Holy Ghost actually could be a bit traumatic as physical change actually occurred but he indicated such was a rare event .

As much as I respect Brigham Young and think he is way over criticized because of misunderstandings of what he said I am skeptical on this one. I would have to see the quotation in context. Brigham did miss a few.