Apocrypha

[inquiringmind]

Did Joseph ever say anything about the apocrypha?

Is it possible some of these books were originally part of the canon?

[BCSpace]

D&C 91

[canard78]

Wow, I'm not sure if ever read that

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

(The rest are interpolations)

[HairBear]

I use D&C 91 as my guide whenever I study the scriptures, especially :

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

And also when I read the Qur'an or the Apocrypha.

[Storm Rider]

Hair, isn't that the fundamental principle for every disciple in finding truth in all religions or religious writings? There is much wisdom to be found in reading the scriptures to the exclusion of all else, but there are some of us whose interests or guidance is to search for truth everywhere. With the Spirit truths are manifested and we are benefited. The only caution I give is that the hand must stay firmly on the Iron Rod.

[Nevo]

Is it possible some of these books were originally part of the canon?

They're still part of the canon for Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians.

[EllenMaksoud]

Did Joseph ever say anything about the apocrypha?

Is it possible some of these books were originally part of the canon?

Joseph? Do you mean Josephus? Do you mean Mary, the mother of Jesus', husband?

There are a few books of the Apocrypha that are really interesting, and then there is the book of Thomas, and the so called letters of Mary. Of course most of the bearded old wrinklies at the seminaries get all indignant about those books, I like the unrecognized works, and enjoy the discomfiture of pompous old stuffies.

You have to keep the lens of truth used by Joseph Smith on these things. The very people who did not canonize these works are the very people who drove the apostacy. They came up with the trinity, celibacy, and oh so much error.

[Damien the Leper]

I use the RSV Catholic Edition for my biblical studies now. I remember reading somewhere that a case can be made that Paul may have used Maccabes to develop and portray his theology within the authentic portions of the Pauline Corpus. I wish I could remember where I read that...damn it!

[Damien the Leper]

Joseph? Do you mean Josephus? Do you mean Mary, the mother of Jesus', husband?

There are a few books of the Apocrypha that are really interesting, and then there is the book of Thomas, and the so called letters of Mary. Of course most of the bearded old wrinklies at the seminaries get all indignant about those books, I like the unrecognized works, and enjoy the discomfiture of pompous old stuffies.

You have to keep the lens of truth used by Joseph Smith on these things. The very people who did not canonize these works are the very people who drove the apostacy. They came up with the trinity, celibacy, and oh so much error.

Bolded emphasis mine.

The Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Magdelene are Gnostic tractates. They are very fascinating but must be taken with a grain of salt considering their datings. However, my Intro to the NT professor, from a few years ago, stated that some scholars have attempted to date Thomas before even Mark. I don't know how that holds up but it is an interesting theory nonetheless.

[Questing Beast]

I have a New American Catholic study Bible. I so far have only read first and second Maccabees. And I tried to read Wisdom, but got roadblocked by the celibacy ("childlessness") parts; "Better is childlessness than virture". Blah!

Even more than the Bible itself, the apocryphal works are controversial in their asserted authorship and dating, and interpolation....

[EllenMaksoud]

Bolded emphasis mine.

The Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Magdelene are Gnostic tractates. They are very fascinating but must be taken with a grain of salt considering their datings. However, my Intro to the NT professor, from a few years ago, stated that some scholars have attempted to date Thomas before even Mark. I don't know how that holds up but it is an interesting theory nonetheless.

Pardon me if I am mixed up. I thought that Thomas eventually went to Southern India and started a church?

As far as the letters of Mary, I am especially fond of them and hope that more written about here is discovered one day. The early Catholic Church tried to surround her in mysticism and mystery, trying to make her an unknowable woman. I especially like the passage where one of the disciples whines, "we know that he loved you more than us". Well, duh, I always felt that Jesus Christ had a wife, and it gives me great pleasure to watch the scholars bristle when I mention it. One day Heavenly Father will have them in derision.

[EllenMaksoud]

I have a New American Catholic study Bible. I so far have only read first and second Maccabees. And I tried to read Wisdom, but got roadblocked by the celibacy ("childlessness") parts; "Better is childlessness than virture". Blah!

Even more than the Bible itself, the apocryphal works are controversial in their asserted authorship and dating, and interpolation....

BLAH ! My sentiments exactly!

[Damien the Leper]

Pardon me if I am mixed up. I thought that Thomas eventually went to Southern India and started a church?

As far as the letters of Mary, I am especially fond of them and hope that more written about here is discovered one day. The early Catholic Church tried to surround her in mysticism and mystery, trying to make her an unknowable woman. I especially like the passage where one of the disciples whines, "we know that he loved you more than us". Well, duh, I always felt that Jesus Christ had a wife, and it gives me great pleasure to watch the scholars bristle when I mention it. One day Heavenly Father will have them in derision.

I don't know about Thomas starting a church in a geographical area. I have not studied him that extensively. The Gospel of Mary is wonderful. It is interesting to derive from that tractate that perhaps she was an apostle and the leader of the church after Jesus' death. I don't really agree with that perspective but I am fascinated by it.

[Damien the Leper]

I have a New American Catholic study Bible. I so far have only read first and second Maccabees. And I tried to read Wisdom, but got roadblocked by the celibacy ("childlessness") parts; "Better is childlessness than virture". Blah!

Even more than the Bible itself, the apocryphal works are controversial in their asserted authorship and dating, and interpolation....

I say blah too! But first I need to find the future Mr. Mr. Valentinus and convince his Mormon butt that we need to adopt 13 kids.

[EllenMaksoud]

I don't know about Thomas starting a church in a geographical area. I have not studied him that extensively. The Gospel of Mary is wonderful. It is interesting to derive from that tractate that perhaps she was an apostle and the leader of the church after Jesus' death. I don't really agree with that perspective but I am fascinated by it.

Nah, I doubt that she was a leader of the early church. I just don't think the men would permit that. Remember, not many of these guys were credentialed at all. All they had going for them was their personal experience with Jesus The Christ. I think the educated pontificators and the power hungry tried to minimize them pretty fast. I think it really irked the disciples that Mary had Jesus ear at all. We try to make some super spiritual thing out of the time, but these guys didn't actually believe Jesus was anything special, except for Peter (Mark 8:29) until just before Jesus Christ went to heaven.

Even now, it is really difficult for a woman to get a man to listen to her. I've had my oil dipstick taken from my hands, been told to get off ladders, been yelled at while driving, and happily been told to get out of the way when moving furniture, or have the trunk open with the spare tire in my hands. Guys really like showing women how great they are, and I am good with it. But, listen to the intellectual opinion of a woman? Not unless I'm holding my knitting needles to his temple.

[Stone holm]

Nah, I doubt that she was a leader of the early church. I just don't think the men would permit that. Remember, not many of these guys were credentialed at all. All they had going for them was their personal experience with Jesus The Christ. I think the educated pontificators and the power hungry tried to minimize them pretty fast. I think it really irked the disciples that Mary had Jesus ear at all. We try to make some super spiritual thing out of the time, but these guys didn't actually believe Jesus was anything special, except for Peter (Mark 8:29) until just before Jesus Christ went to heaven.

Even now, it is really difficult for a woman to get a man to listen to her. I've had my oil dipstick taken from my hands, been told to get off ladders, been yelled at while driving, and happily been told to get out of the way when moving furniture, or have the trunk open with the spare tire in my hands. Guys really like showing women how great they are, and I am good with it. But, listen to the intellectual opinion of a woman? Not unless I'm holding my knitting needles to his temple.

Actually there is a logical argument that she was in fact the first Apostle if you go by the definition of an Apostle as being a special witness of Christ, you don't get more special than the first person to encounter the risen Saviour who is told to go tell the rest of his followers that He is risen. As for Thomas, Thomas did his missionary travels in the East and some of the branches of the church which He established there almost survived into modern times. Historically, however, Thomas made a tragic error to his legacy -- which was not that the Roman Church indelibily branded him the "doubting Thomas", but that he went East while Paul went West, and in the long run the Western Church rewrote Christian history, and his work along with Mary's got burned and buried.

[EllenMaksoud]

Actually there is a logical argument that she was in fact the first Apostle if you go by the definition of an Apostle as being a special witness of Christ, you don't get more special than the first person to encounter the risen Saviour who is told to go tell the rest of his followers that He is risen. As for Thomas, Thomas did his missionary travels in the East and some of the branches of the church which He established there almost survived into modern times. Historically, however, Thomas made a tragic error to his legacy -- which was not that the Roman Church indelibily branded him the "doubting Thomas", but that he went East while Paul went West, and in the long run the Western Church rewrote Christian history, and his work along with Mary's got burned and buried.

Wow, this is exciting! I knew that the building that housed the church that Thomas started was still there, but I do not know how he died. I had heard that he was eventually murdered by ?

There are so many things that I just know snatches of and while I have tried to piece it all together, I have not had success. I knew that Hypatia of Alexandra was brutally murdered by Christian Extremists, and that the Gnostics and Essenes were also slaughtered around that time. I have heard two stories about that. One is that zealots killed them to keep out error, and the other is that the Romans killed them to erradicate Christians.

Interestingly, I knew some Iranian Shia Muslim women, who when the Jesus Christ is mentioned, they suddenly get very reverent and say things like "Yes, he is the Christ, the savior of the world." In Islam, it seems that it is the men who get involved in all sorts of ructions and go about killing people in the name of Allah SWT, shouting "Allah Akbar", a fact that I am sure makes Heavenly Father sick. Of course there are Christians and Jews who still live in Iran, though I do not know what conditions under which they live.

There is a very interesting Eastern Christian people, I think called the Mandeans, who mostly lived in the marsh lands of Southern Iraq, and were run out by Saddam. I have heard it said that they were very peaceful village people who fished in the marshes, and grew grains for subsistence. My knowledge is very spotty, but it seems that as their children grew, if a girl wanted to live like a boy she did and if a boy wanted to live like a woman he did. There is a great little youtube on them.

[Calm]

I knew that Hypatia of Alexandra was brutally murdered by Christian Extremists,

If the wiki is accurate, it was a little more complicated than that. She was apparently in the middle of a feud where there was brutality on both sides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia#Events_leading_to_her_murder

[Stone holm]

If the wiki is accurate, it was a little more complicated than that. She was apparently in the middle of a feud where there was brutality on both sides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia#Events_leading_to_her_murder

Interesting use of the word extremists, given my understanding the riot was inspired by a high level official of the church. Mainline Church leaders back then would be considered extremists today, back then they may have been just normal bigoted religious types who had more power than Westerners are willing to give such types today.

[Calm]

Interesting use of the word extremists, given my understanding the riot was inspired by a high level official of the church.

There was a movie out a short time ago that altered the story to make it look like Christian extremists IIRC...also made her much younger too, IIRC. That may be where Ellen got the idea.

Some reviewers have heavily criticized Agora for historical inaccuracies, heavy artistic licenses and perceived anti-Christian bias in the movie. Robert Barron, an American Catholic priest, writes in an article: "Hypatia was indeed a philosopher and she was indeed killed by a mob in 415, but practically everything else about the story that Gibbon and Sagan and Amenábar tell is false".[42] Irene A. Artemi, a Dr. of Theology of the Athens University, states that "the movie - albeit seemingly not turning against the Christian religion - is in fact portraying the Christians as fundamentalist, obscurantist, ignorant and fanatic".[43] Similarly, the atheist Armarium Magnum blog said: "Over and over again, elements are added to the story that are not in the source material: the destruction of the library, the stoning of the Jews in the theatre, Cyril condemning Hypatia's teaching because she is a woman, the heliocentric "breakthrough" and Hypatia's supposed irreligiousity."[44]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agora_(film)#Critical_response Edited May 1, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

There was a movie out a short time ago that altered the story to make it look like Christian extremists IIRC...also made her much younger too, IIRC. That may be where Ellen got the idea.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Agora_(film)#Critical_response

Couldn't get that link to open, but will hold to my position on "extremists" -- it really depends where you are on the road. If the centerline of the road has been moved to the right berm, then those on the former centerline will be considered leftist extremists. Its a relative term. We certainly consider the Inquisition to have been extreme by our standards today, but I don't think the Spanish Court considered those carrying it out to be "extremists" -- I suspect the same is true of what happened in Alexandria.

[MormonMason]

Questing, you are referring to Wisdom 4:1. Although there are those who would see this as a passage advocating celibacy, I do not see that passage as advocating celibacy. Look at the context of the preceding chapter. It is more a sense of it meaning that it is better being childless and having virtue than being like the adulterous people bearing problematic children that were mentioned in the verses previous. Unfortunately, the chapter structure tends to make it less understood to readers. It would have been better and somewhat clearer to readers, I think, had the translators put 4:1 as the last verse of chapter 3 of Wisdom.

[Questing Beast]

@MormonMason: That's not how the RCC interpreted it, of course. Wisdom is possibly the main "scriptural" justification for monasticism of the celibate sort. And the reason why the RCC finally insisted upon celibacy for all the clergy.

I don't see the clear meaning of the preceding verses that you do. Therein are mentioned women who forego the marriage bed, eunuchs, AND adulterers and the children of the same. The doctrine presented is unjust, because it asserts that the children of adultery are cursed no matter what. Yet the bastards of this world often surpass legitimate children in their accomplishments and status. E.g. William the Conqueror....

[MormonMason]

@MormonMason: That's not how the RCC interpreted it, of course. Wisdom is possibly the main "scriptural" justification for monasticism of the celibate sort. And the reason why the RCC finally insisted upon celibacy for all the clergy.

I don't see the clear meaning of the preceding verses that you do. Therein are mentioned women who forego the marriage bed, eunuchs, AND adulterers and the children of the same. The doctrine presented is unjust, because it asserts that the children of adultery are cursed no matter what. Yet the bastards of this world often surpass legitimate children in their accomplishments and status. E.g. William the Conqueror....

I know the RCC hold that it enjoins celibacy. That does not make the interpretation correct. Perhaps you need to obtain a better translation or, better yet, would need to consult the Greek text to see what I see from the passage. Whether the passage is fair or not, is of modern opinion. The Jews of the day certainly saw such children and their parent(s) as the cause of many problems in society, and that was what the author was addressing, as were others of the day. While controversial, I have seen that many of society's problems, particularly in the most violent of neighborhoods, you will see the children of such unions in large part the cause of the circumstances in such neighborhoods. That it not to say that it 100% covers every individual and every situation involving illegitimate children as the products of adultery and fornication. There are exceptions to the rule, of course.

[Stone holm]

@MormonMason: That's not how the RCC interpreted it, of course. Wisdom is possibly the main "scriptural" justification for monasticism of the celibate sort. And the reason why the RCC finally insisted upon celibacy for all the clergy.

I don't see the clear meaning of the preceding verses that you do. Therein are mentioned women who forego the marriage bed, eunuchs, AND adulterers and the children of the same. The doctrine presented is unjust, because it asserts that the children of adultery are cursed no matter what. Yet the bastards of this world often surpass legitimate children in their accomplishments and status. E.g. William the Conqueror....

I am not totally certain that is the correct understanding of the RCC -- it is my understanding that there are some married Priests who are part of the RCC, but who belong to an order that exists in Turkey or somewhere near there, as I had a Professor at Notre Dame who was a married priest of that order. Also, it is my understanding that the RCC consider it a tradition, and therefore it is potentially subject to change.