Symbolism In The Apostacy

[Yep]

The thread on the restoring of the Ancient Church got me thinking, and I wanted to ask everyone for some input.

I believe strongly in repetitive symbolism and type. The Church is stated as the "body of Christ". Christ died and was resurrected. Christ's physical form was restored. His closest followers, the apostles, fell away from his teachings and went back to their pre-Christ life and Christ restored to them their edict. The Church, from an LDS perspective, fell into apostacy and was restored.

Given this, what parallels can be drawn between these symbols and types?

e.g. Absence of Christ's spirit in his body for a period - Absence of the Spirit's guidance in the Church for a period

What are your thoughts on this idea?

[halconero]

Maybe it's the reverse? Christ isn't a symbol for apostasy and restoration, the apostasy and the restoration are a type of Christ?

[MormonMason]

As I mentioned in that other thread, the very concept of the gates of Hades not prevailing against the church/Rock supports such an idea, contrary to the critics. In order to face the gates of Hades one must die. In order not to be prevailed against, the gates of Hades must not be able to keep one in death in the realm of the Dead.

Like her Husband and Savior, the Church also had first to die in order to face the gates of Hades. The Church would also have to be restored to life in order for the gates of Hades not to be able to prevail against the Church, for the job of the gates of Hades is to keep people in Hades, which is the realm of the dead. This very symbolism underlying the passage very much supports the LDS view of apostasy and restoration, in my opinion.

[Yep]

Maybe it's the reverse? Christ isn't a symbol for apostasy and restoration, the apostasy and the restoration are a type of Christ?

I think that all symbolism can possibly be viewed both directions.

[Ahab]

As I mentioned in that other thread, the very concept of the gates of Hades not prevailing against the church/Rock supports such an idea, contrary to the critics. In order to face the gates of Hades one must die. In order not to be prevailed against, the gates of Hades must not be able to keep one in death in the realm of the Dead.

Like her Husband and Savior, the Church also had first to die in order to face the gates of Hades. The Church would also have to be restored to life in order for the gates of Hades not to be able to prevail against the Church, for the job of the gates of Hades is to keep people in Hades, which is the realm of the dead. This very symbolism underlying the passage very much supports the LDS view of apostasy and restoration, in my opinion.

I can see the analogy but the restoration of the Church at that time would have been more like the raising of Lazarus, which only helped for a little while, because Lazarus died again later. It wasn't a resurrection-type restoration, where the spirit and body could never be separated again. In the restoration that happened in our dispensation, however, I believe it is a resurrection-type restoration, which as foretold by Daniel will remain forever.

[Yep]

I can see the analogy but the restoration of the Church at that time would have been more like the raising of Lazarus, which only helped for a little while, because Lazarus died again later. It wasn't a resurrection-type restoration, where the spirit and body could never be separated again. In the restoration that happened in our dispensation, however, I believe it is a resurrection-type restoration, which as foretold by Daniel will remain forever.

I like this line of thought, how tightly can the type be seen?

I like to pull out from the initial object and look at the large picture as well. I often think of the histroy of God's interaction with Man as symbolic of the life cycle of an individual. Birth - Creation, In the womb - Pre-Existence, Adam to Noah - Years 0-8, Flood - Baptism, Noah to Moses - years 8-12, Exodus and the presentation of the Law through the end of the OT - Aaronic Priesthood period, Christ's life and teaching - Mission, Following Christ - Adult life, Restoration - the maturing that leads to a more Christlike perspective in understanding and desire. With this view I can draw various teachings from the scriptures and history that have aided me in my life.

How can we extend this type in a similar fashion? What other parallels exists?

[Damien the Leper]

Considering the 1st century church that existed up until about 70 CE doesn't exist in any form historically or modernly (this is not a cheap shot at the LDS church or any church for that matter), I find it difficult to draw parallels or derive symbolism. The churches that developed post-martyrdom are merely reinterpretations of what the original was. What the "original" church was is not so clearly defined in any Christian scripture.

[Ahab]

I like this line of thought, how tightly can the type be seen?

I like to pull out from the initial object and look at the large picture as well. I often think of the histroy of God's interaction with Man as symbolic of the life cycle of an individual. Birth - Creation, In the womb - Pre-Existence, Adam to Noah - Years 0-8, Flood - Baptism, Noah to Moses - years 8-12, Exodus and the presentation of the Law through the end of the OT - Aaronic Priesthood period, Christ's life and teaching - Mission, Following Christ - Adult life, Restoration - the maturing that leads to a more Christlike perspective in understanding and desire. With this view I can draw various teachings from the scriptures and history that have aided me in my life.

How can we extend this type in a similar fashion? What other parallels exists?

Hmm. I tend to think of this stage of our existence as our teen years, relatively, where we more fully develop our individual personalities. Most of us become rebellious to a certain extent as we seek to define the boundaries, and our Father generally gives us a whole lot of slack while stepping in on occasions to do what he wants. I think of the time of the final judgment as the time when our Father will determine where we'll go as our base camp. Some will go way out into outer darkness while others will just move to another town or state/country, and then some will live in the general neighborhood he is in. And then there will be those who will move back into his mansion with him, with that as our base campe, with enough rooms for everybody to have their own room when we go to him for a visit. I'd like to be more of a traveler, able to go anywhere I want when I want to. Not quite sure where I want to set up my base camp, though. Living in his mansion with him sounds pretty good, though. Edited March 14, 2013 by Ahab

[cinepro]

The thread on the restoring of the Ancient Church got me thinking, and I wanted to ask everyone for some input.

I believe strongly in repetitive symbolism and type. The Church is stated as the "body of Christ". Christ died and was resurrected. Christ's physical form was restored. His closest followers, the apostles, fell away from his teachings and went back to their pre-Christ life and Christ restored to them their edict. The Church, from an LDS perspective, fell into apostacy and was restored.

Given this, what parallels can be drawn between these symbols and types?

e.g. Absence of Christ's spirit in his body for a period - Absence of the Spirit's guidance in the Church for a period

What are your thoughts on this idea?

I suspect you'll have good success with analogies that support people's beliefs.

I don't recommend floating this theory on a Catholic discussion board.

[MormonMason]

No one says that this dying and raising of the Church, or the driving of the Church into the wilderness and its coming forth, had to take place in the same period of time as Christ--three days. Besides that, the scriptures are pretty clear that they were to be long periods of time, as evidenced by the 1,260 days (if these are prophetic years, 1,260 years or so, give or take) of the woman (symbolic of the Church here) hiding out in the wilderness. Someone I know wrote a short paper detailing the prophecy of Daniel and how it relates to time periods that set forth the setting up of the Kingdom and the rolling forth of the stone cut without hands as taking place between the years 1829 and 1848, which is the time of the ten kingdoms that descended from the Roman Empire (the legs of iron) as the feet and ten toes partly of clay and partly of iron descend from the iron legs. I'd say the timing of the Restoration fits well within that time frame. By the way, even Josephus the Jewish historian was very clear that he and others were of the opinion that the iron legs referred to the Roman Empire. Since he lived in the 1st Century CE that idea would seem to preclude the Christian Church of that day from being the kingdom that God would set up in the days of the ten kings.

[saemo]

No one says that this dying and raising of the Church, or the driving of the Church into the wilderness and its coming forth, had to take place in the same period of time as Christ--three days. Besides that, the scriptures are pretty clear that they were to be long periods of time, as evidenced by the 1,260 days (if these are prophetic years, 1,260 years or so, give or take) of the woman (symbolic of the Church here) hiding out in the wilderness. Someone I know wrote a short paper detailing the prophecy of Daniel and how it relates to time periods that set forth the setting up of the Kingdom and the rolling forth of the stone cut without hands as taking place between the years 1829 and 1848, which is the time of the ten kingdoms that descended from the Roman Empire (the legs of iron) as the feet and ten toes partly of clay and partly of iron descend from the iron legs. I'd say the timing of the Restoration fits well within that time frame. By the way, even Josephus the Jewish historian was very clear that he and others were of the opinion that the iron legs referred to the Roman Empire. Since he lived in the 1st Century CE that idea would seem to preclude the Christian Church of that day from being the kingdom that God would set up in the days of the ten kings.

Wow! That is a serious exegetic leap. A time of trial, symbolized in apocalyptic literature by 3.5 years, 1260 days or 42 months. In this case is speaking to the persecutions the early Christians experienced, not Mormonism.

Edited March 14, 2013 by saemo

[MormonMason]

Wow! That is a serious exegetic leap. A time of trial, symbolized in apocalyptic literature by 3.5 years, 1260 days or 42 months. In this case is speaking to the persecutions the early Christians experienced, not Mormonism.

While that could be said about the wilderness period and the woman, this is not the case with the prophecy of Daniel. The kingdom and the stone cut out without hands was to be set up in the days of the ten kings following the Roman Empire, symbolized by the iron legs. That precludes Christianity from the first century and also its derivative Catholicism. But, like all apocalyptic visions and prophecies all are subject to varied interpretation.

[Yep]

I suspect you'll have good success with analogies that support people's beliefs.

I don't recommend floating this theory on a Catholic discussion board.

Yes, such analogies are good for personal reflection and hold with those of the same perspective, but often do not hold with a disagreeing audience. In this thread, the analogy does not hold with a belief that there was no apostacy of the early church. If the analogy is true, then it threatens most of mainstream and traditional Christianity. Although, they could take the gap between the Old and New testaments as symbolic of the period between Death and Resurrection, I don't know that this would work for Christians either. Then there is my view of the Flood, which also conflicts as it would not occur at the infant stage of Man imo. But then, there is also the use of the number 8 as a numeric symbol in relation to the saving by baptism.

1 Pet. 3:20-21

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Edited March 15, 2013 by Yep