The God Race

[Truth]

As I was reading the thread on this last Sunday's PH/RS lesson on Pres. Snow's couplet, some mentioned the God race.

What exactly constitutes the God race? If we go with the scriptures, specifically the D&C, and the earth's 7,000 years of existence, then are they only those that are direct descendants of Adam for the last 7,000 years? Does this include those who may have existed outside of Adam's sphere of existence? Neaderthals?

I understand that much of this would be very speculative and we do not have lots of info, but I am curiuos as to what this encompasses. One thing that springs to mind is Nibley's discussion/treatise on pre-Adamites.

[Storm Rider]

I personally don't like the label; the logic does not work too well for me. Is there another race of humans that are not the sons and daughters of God? Your assumptions and logical deductions are why I do not like it. God is the creator of all things, but his work and glory is to bring to pass our exaltation.

[halconero]

Maybe the God species?

Species being defined as a population/group that can breed and produce fertile offspring after it's own kind.

[Questing Beast]

As I was reading the thread on this last Sunday's PH/RS lesson on Pres. Snow's couplet, some mentioned the God race.

What exactly constitutes the God race? If we go with the scriptures, specifically the D&C, and the earth's 7,000 years of existence, then are they only those that are direct descendants of Adam for the last 7,000 years? Does this include those who may have existed outside of Adam's sphere of existence? Neaderthals?

I understand that much of this would be very speculative and we do not have lots of info, but I am curiuos as to what this encompasses. One thing that springs to mind is Nibley's discussion/treatise on pre-Adamites.

"Pre-Adamites" are speculation. Of course science supports even human occupation sites as much older than seven thousand years, e.g. Jericho, which, iirc, is at least 14K years old. So the whole idea of the "seven thousand years of the earth's temporal existence" (seven seals) is not, cannot, be literally true.

No matter what the truth of the world's age is, any "sapient" species is "the god race". If dolphins are ever proven to be sapient (which I greatly doubt), for example, they would be just as much "the god race" as homo sapiens. The core factor is "our kind of thinking", i.e. imagination, or the capacity to delve deeply into the concepts of opposition and planning for an outcome and then laboring to achieve that outcome. All other species, no matter how intelligent, never manifest thinking qualities to include sapience. Neanderthals might have been sapient too. If the artifacts of their species include such things as multipart (complex) tools, graves with evidence of a belief in the afterlife, music and the other arts, etc., then I think it is safe to say that Neanderthals were at least sapient in a lesser way, but close enough to merge with homo sapiens even as the earlier species died out....

[Ahab]

As I was reading the thread on this last Sunday's PH/RS lesson on Pres. Snow's couplet, some mentioned the God race.

What exactly constitutes the God race?

It includes every person/individual who is the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, from eternity past through eternity future.

If we go with the scriptures, specifically the D&C, and the earth's 7,000 years of existence, then are they only those that are direct descendants of Adam for the last 7,000 years?

No. Our Father in heaven was born before Adam, and so were many other persons/individuals from eternitiy past. Our kind of being didn't begin with Adam... and it didn't even begin. We have always been around and we'll never stop reproducing ourselves.

Does this include those who may have existed outside of Adam's sphere of existence?

What do you mean by his "sphere of existence"? There's only one existence and everyone who is and was and will be is a part of that existence.

Neaderthals?

Sheesh. Don't tell me you're someone else who believes in evolution. I know some people today who are the same kind of people you can refer to by that name.

I understand that much of this would be very speculative and we do not have lots of info, but I am curiuos as to what this encompasses. One thing that springs to mind is Nibley's discussion/treatise on pre-Adamites.

By pre-Adamites Hugh was referring to persons/individuals who lived before Adam was a person/individual. Adam was always a part of our Father in heaven, though, just as every child is a part of their parent-to-be before their children are born.

This is not rocket science, don't cha know. This is very basic stuff, about the birds and the bees. Didn't you parents ever teach you where you came from? You didn't start from them because they came from their parents, too, and the same for their parents, and their parents before them, etc, etc, etc into eternity past.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ahab

[Questing Beast]

Ahab doesn't believe in science. I get that clearly. One can ignore evidence but it doesn't disappear. Eventually evidence must be accounted for one way or the other. And science does not have an ax to grind, it merely observes, tests and shows and falsifies theories. There is never absolute "proof", only evidence to convince beyond a reasonable doubt. Religion, by contrast, makes assertions and sits on them. No evidence. No facts. Ahab's assertions don't answer any questions, not one. The original most "terrible question" remains after all that Ahab has to say: "Why existence instead of nothing?" God the Father does not answer that question. Saying "we always existed as human beings, as gods progressing, and we will always reproduce ourselves", answers nothing about "why existence instead of nothing?"

The only way that existence Is instead of nothing depends on an uncaused Necessary Cause. Saying that all the living stuff going on in the universe simply always was there is unbelievable. It demands acceptance of complexity without intellect or intent or design. The universe in stasis, self-perpetuating, is the biggest ex nihilo imaginable. And it is not supported by a shred of empirical evidence. But science shows an evolving complexity over eons of time. None of this demands that there be no God or god, in fact science has absolutely nothing to say about God one way or the other. As agnostics and atheists constantly affirm, there is no evidence FOR God, only the artifacts of existence which is inarguable. How or why existence is not something that science can say anything about, yet.

"How to Think About God" is the name of a book I read years ago. It taught me nothing new, but revealed how other minds wrestle with the conundrum of existence instead of nothing. And the upshot is, and can only be, that a Necessary Cause (singular) is responsible for it. Everything else is a manifestation of that Cause....

Edited March 12, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Jude2]

"... specifically the D&C, and the earth's 7,000 years of existence

Where does it say that?

[CV75]

What exactly constitutes the God race?

The first attempt for an amicable resolution between Apollo and the Python of Delphi.

[Questing Beast]

"... specifically the D&C, and the earth's 7,000 years of existence

Where does it say that?

D&C 77:6 Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousands years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. (emphasis is mine)

Edited March 12, 2013 by Questing Beast

[wenglund]

Does the "God race" have anything to do with the "prize" that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 9:24?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Questing Beast]

Interesting play on the word "race". In it's original form, I am positive that "race" (contest) to Paul did not have the same accidental spelling as the word referring to the species of mankind....

[wenglund]

Interesting play on the word "race". In it's original form, I am positive that "race" (contest) to Paul did not have the same accidental spelling as the word referring to the species of mankind....

Really? I'm surprised and shocked. LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Ahab]

The original most "terrible question" remains after all that Ahab has to say: "Why existence instead of nothing?"

Because if nothing was all there ever was then nothing would still be here. You can't get something from nothing. Nothing doesn't produce anything.

So can we now agree that at some point there was at least something, instead of just nothing? Can't you see that logically?

So what was the something? How about whatever there is now, in some form or fashion? And what form or fashion was it in then? How about how it is now, with everything we have now being more of the same that has always been in existence.

Makes perfect sense to me. Like begats like. Always has. Always will. Why "imagine" anything different?

Saying that all the living stuff going on in the universe simply always was there is unbelievable.

It is to me, and it's blatantly obvious. Why do you believe something can come from nothing?

It demands acceptance of complexity without intellect or intent or design.

Do you know what life is? Life itself is some kind of sentient being, and by that I am referring to intelligence. Not that all kinds of life are equally intelligent, but each kind of being is intelligent, to some degree, with our kind being the most intelligent of them all. Some kind has to be at the top of the heap, and that just so happens to be the kind of being we are. Not that all who are our kind of being are equally intelligent, though, so even among our own kind there are those who are more intelligent than some others.

Do yourself a favor by trying to become more intelligent than you already are, by knowing who you should learn from.

The universe in stasis, self-perpetuating, is the biggest ex nihilo imaginable.

No, it's not nothing. It is everything the way that it actually is.

And it is not supported by a shred of empirical evidence.

Yes it is, and it's called reality. Compare that to what you can only imagine.

But science shows an evolving complexity over eons of time.

No it doesn't show it. It imagines it, but reality is the way that it is rather than some other way which is only imagined.

None of this demands that there be no God or god, in fact science has absolutely nothing to say about God one way or the other.

God is simply a word/name/title we use to refer to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, and among all of them there is one that is the most supreme kind among all the others. With science you should be able to realize there must be a God.

As agnostics and atheists constantly affirm, there is no evidence FOR God, only the artifacts of existence which is inarguable. How or why existence is not something that science can say anything about, yet.

Well hopefully someday they'll all wake up and smell the roses. It couldn't be more obvious than it already is.

"How to Think About God" is the name of a book I read years ago. It taught me nothing new, but revealed how other minds wrestle with the conundrum of existence instead of nothing. And the upshot is, and can only be, that a Necessary Cause (singular) is responsible for it. Everything else is a manifestation of that Cause....

I still can't figure out why the idea of "nothing" holds such power over the minds of some people. It's like they're fascinated by the idea that at some point in time or eternity past there was only nothing, and then there was something, and then everything gradually got to be the way it is right now. It's a very weird concept to fathom, and I can see no good reason to believe it. Reality itself disputes it and all they are left with is an idea in their imaginations.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Ahab

[Stone holm]

Doesn't Eliza Snow in the lyrics to "If you could hie unto Kolob" in our hymn book refer to the race of the gods? What is meant is that gods have been spawning worlds and thereby creating a new generation of gods forever -- she indicates that it has been going on for so long that no matter how long and how fast you travelled you were never be able to find when this chain first started. Joseph Smith, Jr. said something fairly puzzling though about his ring which had a circle on it (you can buy replicas at LDS paraphenalia stores) indicating that there was no beginning or end -- I have yet to be able to puzzle that statement out because we do not believe in reincarnation so I don't know what he was talking about. Perhaps it has something to do with what Einstein speculated about that time curves in on itself or something. Some times I wish we had Joseph Smith present so we could sit him down and say, "What the heck were you talking about?" Back then before whatever a Prophet or Apostle said being instantaneously scattered to the four winds, they used to talk about how the cosmos worked and functioned, and I think they spent more time thinking about such questions than the General Authorities due today. Possibly, that was also because people knew their Bibles backwards and forwards, so they didn't have to dumb everything down. Hard to say. For us, however, there is only One God with which we are descended and that is Heavenly Father -- we have no commerce with our Heavenly Grandfathers. Whether there was more commerce with and discussion about our Heavenly Mother(s) back in the original Church before Augustine purged the Scriptures is up for debate, but in this dispensation there has been none that I know of.

[Ahab]

Joseph Smith, Jr. said something fairly puzzling though about his ring which had a circle on it (you can buy replicas at LDS paraphenalia stores) indicating that there was no beginning or end -- I have yet to be able to puzzle that statement out because we do not believe in reincarnation so I don't know what he was talking about.

He simply meant there is no beginning point where everything started. That's what we mean by eternity. It doesn't begin, or end.

For us, however, there is only One God with which we are descended and that is Heavenly Father -- we have no commerce with our Heavenly Grandfathers.

They speak to us through our Father, as a part of who he is, just as all persons are who they came from in their very being.

[altersteve]

Wow, Ahab, you sure don't like it when people disagree with you, do you?

[Questing Beast]

...

I still can't figure out why the idea of "nothing" holds such power over the minds of some people. It's like they're fascinated by the idea that at some point in time or eternity past there was only nothing, and then there was something, and then everything gradually got to be the way it is right now. It's a very weird concept to fathom, and I can see no good reason to believe it. Reality itself disputes it and all they are left with is an idea in their imaginations.

Because "nothing" is a natural concept common to everyone. It is never saying "hello" and it is saying "good-bye" forever. Nothing is what you have when something dies, because the memory of it fades and fades and is eventually gone. So human imagination can easily apprehend a state of NOTHINGNESS. There is no reason why the universe, as it is, should be continuing, and as evidence indicates that it does in fact "die" (as in not stay the same) as we know it, the question logically remains, why is it this way and how is it possible?

Btw, science does not imagine anything.

But you are making a basic mistake when you assume that anyone is saying that the universe could come from nothing. It is "God" manifesting. And my puny imagination can easily apprehend a state where "God" does NOTHING at all. In fact it is only logical that NOTHING is a continuous state in itself. As "God" Is, both states exist, Void and Creation, because all things are NOW with "God". Imagination is our most infinite trait, perhaps our only infinite trait other than being immortals from the getgo. You mention "imagination" several times, disparagingly it seems, yet imagination is the most godlike trait we possess; it is the closest thing to the mind of "God" we experience. So don't be so facile in your dismissal of imagination as misleading or almost pointless....

Edited March 12, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Ahab]

Wow, Ahab, you sure don't like it when people disagree with you, do you?

No. Is there anybody who likes that?

And it's not just with me, but with what God has taught me, so what I really don't like is when people don't agree with what God has taught me.

[Questing Beast]

@Ahab: anyone can make the same assertions, and millions do so. What "God" tells them does not agree with your views of what "God" tells you. Their "God" and your "God" are the same "God", imho, and only those who get all dogmatic about being disagreed with cause trouble. As long as anyone's religious views are not causing injustice, I can leave anyone to his/her religious convictions....

Edited March 12, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Ahab]

Because "nothing" is a natural concept common to everyone.

Not to me. I can't imagine a time when I've ever thought of nothing. I can't even imagine it, because even the "nothing" is what I would refer to as the universe, even though it would be empty, and the universe doesn't equate to nothing to me.

It is never saying "hello" and it is saying "good-bye" forever.

Nothing is saying good-bye? That's quite an imagination you have, about nothing. They could have used you for Seinfeld.

Nothing is what you have when something dies, because the memory of it fades and fades and is eventually gone.

No, it's never gone. Maybe not always on the tip of your tongue, or in recent memory, but all you've ever known is still somewhere within your mind (aka spirit) and at some point you'll be able to recall it.

So human imagination can easily apprehend a state of NOTHINGNESS.

Another big bunch of hooey.

There is no reason why the universe, as it is, should be continuing, and as evidence indicates that it does in fact "die" (as in not stay the same) as we know it, the question logically remains, why is it this way and how is it possible?

It is this way because this is the way that it is, and it will always be as it is now. Not that everything in it will always be in the same state, but in the sense that within it there will always be every state there is for anything to be in as it is in reality.

Btw, science does not imagine anything.

No, but people do and they often refer to what they imagine as science.

But you are making a basic mistake when you assume that anyone is saying that the universe could come from nothing.

No, there are some people who say that it could, or did, whether or not they realize that is what they are essentially saying.

It is "God" manifesting.

What is? What do you mean by that?

And my puny imagination can easily apprehend a state where "God" does NOTHING at all.

But that's only in imagination. In reality God doesn't do nothing. God is always busy doing something.

In fact it is only logical that NOTHING is a continuous state in itself.

There is no state of nothingness, except in imagination. There is no part of reality which equates to nothing at all.

As "God" Is, both states exist, Void and Creation, because all things are NOW with "God".

Now is a fleeting moment only briefly here until it is gone into the past from what was the future before that.

Imagination is our most infinite trait, perhaps our only infinite trait other than being immortals from the getgo.

The sooner you learn to tell the difference between imagination and reality the sooner you'll know how things really are.

You mention "imagination" several times, disparagingly it seems, yet imagination is the most godlike trait we possess; it is the closest thing to the mind of "God" we experience. So don't be so facile in your dismissal of imagination as misleading or almost pointless....

As you go deep in thought to imagine the possibilities of what could be true or possible you'll need to latch on to reality to find your way back to the truth, otherwise you'll ever be searching for the truth, perhaps even imagining you've found it, when what you've found isn't in harmony with reality. It is fun to play. I like imaginary stories sometimes, too. But it always helps to know the way to get back to reality.

[Ahab]

@Ahab: anyone can make the same assertions, and millions do so.

That doesn't mean that what they are saying is true, though. And yet there are people who know what God has taught them.

What "God" tells them does not agree with your views of what "God" tells you.

Yes it does, if it really was "God" who told them what they say God told them. God doesn't contradict himself.

Their "God" and your "God" are the same "God", imho, and only those who get all dogmatic about being disagreed with cause trouble.

There are people who think "God" told them something when "God" really wasn't the one who told them that, though, so not everyone is in agreement about who "God" really is.

As long as anyone's religious views are not causing injustice, I can leave anyone to his/her religious convictions....

Injustice is the state of things not being equal and fair, which isn't a good state for everybody. Even God doesn't rob justice when extending mercy, and charity is also available to everybody. It's only when people want something other than what is just, fair, and charitable that they cause trouble for all of us as a collective society. Not that I woulid ever want to be pushy. To each their own.

[altersteve]

No. Is there anybody who likes that?

Sure. It leads to some insightful conversations, which you don't seem to be interested in.

[Ahab]

Sure. It leads to some insightful conversations, which you don't seem to be interested in.

It leads to some insightful conversations when people don't agree with what God has told me? How so? If you haven't noticed, I'm trying share my insights when people don't seem to know or accept what God has told me. Those are my insights, given to me by God. What insights do you think I could get from someone who didn't know or accept what God has told me? I do get some insights from others, sometimes, but then those also become my insights and I then go about sharing that with others when they don't seem to know or accept what God has told me.

Anyways, my system has served me very well up to this point in my conversations, and I see no good reason to abandon my system.

[altersteve]

It leads to some insightful conversations when people don't agree with what God has told me? How so?

I didn't say that.

[Ahab]

I didn't say that.

Not very forthcoming, are you.