The God Race

[Stone holm]

He simply meant there is no beginning point where everything started. That's what we mean by eternity. It doesn't begin, or end.

They speak to us through our Father, as a part of who he is, just as all persons are who they came from in their very being.

Well except that isn't the Mormon definition of "eternal" , "eternal" only means God's which does not signify unending, so it may not signify not having a beginning either.

[Ahab]

Well except that isn't the Mormon definition of "eternal" , "eternal" only means God's which does not signify unending, so it may not signify not having a beginning either.

I could point you to several scriptures showing that Eternal means the same thing as Endless, and while both terms are appropriately used to refer to God they still mean what they mean independently. And, yeah, both endless and eternal mean there is no beginning, or end, collectively.

[Questing Beast]

Not to me. I can't imagine a time when I've ever thought of nothing. I can't even imagine it, because even the "nothing" is what I would refer to as the universe, even though it would be empty, and the universe doesn't equate to nothing to me.

It is apparent to me, from your words, that you have not thought upon the concept of ALONENESS enough.

... all you've ever known is still somewhere within your mind (aka spirit) and at some point you'll be able to recall it.

This is a statement of faith, not fact. We have no evidence, or capacity to disprove it, that memories are still somewhere within our minds. As all memories fade, incontrovertibly, we only have faith that they are in fact "stored" perfectly for total recall in the afterlife. We do have scripture where God says of sins repented of, "I remember them no more." So even God doesn't remember everything. Some things are not necessary/useful to remember.

...

What is? What do you mean by that?

"God manifesting" is reality to us. Nothing in the world is something else, it is all God manifesting as creation.

...In reality God doesn't do nothing. God is always busy doing something.

Reality is the world to us. But imagination can conceive of "God" doing nothing, therefore it is not only possible it is true. Because a finite mind cannot imagine impossible things, i.e. things that "God" has not done. I don't care how much of a conundrum that assertion looks like, or how many facile examples you care to produce to disprove it, it is a fact and inescapably logical that a finite mind cannot transcend the infinite. God's mind is infinite, yours and mine are finite and always will be. If we can imagine "impossible" things, then we have transcended God as an all-powerful being by imagining something impossible to God. Not possible. See? The conundrum exists, I just said "it is not possible for a finite mind to imagine anything impossible", and then said "Not possible". I trap myself, we always do. It is part of "the perfect joke" pointed directly at mortal, finite beings by the Infinite.

God is fecund with creation. God also does NOTHING and is ALONE. Both "states" exist, as well as every permutation of a given situation that you can ever imagine, and all the infinite other possibilities that you will never imagine. Scripture says that nothing enters into the mind of God but that he does it, i.e. no idle imaginings for God, only thoughts acted upon. That has to include our most idle thoughts and flights of fancy as well, since no finite mind is other than God's manifesting individually as us, and a finite mind cannot transcend God's total mind, in other words we cannot have thoughts that were not first God's thoughts. (This is "dangerous" territory for some, who take it one step too far and assert that since their thoughts are in reality God's thoughts, nothing they think is wrong, giving them licence to do whatever "God" wants them to do, by them thinking it and doing it. This kind of reasoning denies the reality of free will, by blaming God for every act of selfishness and depravity, by asserting that God is really thinking it, so it is okay. There may be a realm where such thinking is "reality", since such a realm can be imagined, but it is clearly not this one, which is fashioned upon its own set of God-given laws, pointing us to Joy and away from misery. To sin against the "rules of Joy" is to become darkened. To obey the "rules of Joy" leads to the destiny that God created for all of us.)

There is no state of nothingness, except in imagination. There is no part of reality which equates to nothing at all.

There you are again, impugning imagination as something much less than it is. But you are right about "reality", i.e. this world, creation is not NOTHING. So reality "here" is never nothing. We exist where the world exists and the world is not nothing.

Now is a fleeting moment only briefly here until it is gone into the past from what was the future before that.

"Only time is measured to man", but God is not as we are. NOW is the perspective of God In Total, i.e. outside of space-time, which God creates. "All things are before my face continually", words to that effect. "I know the end from the beginning", words to that effect. That is the definition of the NOW state, where all things are NOW. "Satan is bound and time is no longer", that shows that time is relative to altering states governing its passage. But I believe that in some sense we will always be creatures of time, and live moment by moment into the unwritten (to us but not to God) future, always learning more about God.

The sooner you learn to tell the difference between imagination and reality the sooner you'll know how things really are.

Yes, but which reality? No sooner will you learn a new thing, than your "reality" will change. The reality you believe now is far different from the reality you believed as a little child, and so it goes forever.

As you go deep in thought to imagine the possibilities of what could be true or possible you'll need to latch on to reality to find your way back to the truth, otherwise you'll ever be searching for the truth, perhaps even imagining you've found it, when what you've found isn't in harmony with reality. It is fun to play. I like imaginary stories sometimes, too. But it always helps to know the way to get back to reality.

Faith is the only guide at every step of the way. If you have faith that God is guiding you to Joy then you know by faith that the "rules" won't change on us at any point. This world/universe of ours will always be governed by the same "rules", because that's how the world was established for us. That is the reality. Everything else is in a state of flux, according to our perception/knowledge, and as I said, "reality" alters with every step by which we increase our knowledge....

[Ahab]

Me: Not to me. I can't imagine a time when I've ever thought of nothing. I can't even imagine it, because even the "nothing" is what I would refer to as the universe, even though it would be empty, and the universe doesn't equate to nothing to me.

You: It is apparent to me, from your words, that you have not thought upon the concept of ALONENESS enough.

I don't agree with your assessment of me. Please tell me what you think I haven't considered.

Me: ... all you've ever known is still somewhere within your mind (aka spirit) and at some point you'll be able to recall it.

You: his is a statement of faith, not fact. We have no evidence, or capacity to disprove it, that memories are still somewhere within our minds. As all memories fade, incontrovertibly, we only have faith that they are in fact "stored" perfectly for total recall in the afterlife. We do have scripture where God says of sins repented of, "I remember them no more." So even God doesn't remember everything. Some things are not necessary/useful to remember.

Me again: It is both faith and fact. We, as a collective society composed of all of our kind of being, do have evidence that our memories reside in our minds (aka spriits), such as when we die and separate from our (other) physical body. Our memories don't reside in our brains, as some have imagined. Our brain is simply a tool with which we (our minds/spirits) interact with our (other) physicaI body. And it's not that God doens't remember something, which would mean there is something he does not know, but that he then disregards our sins.

...

Me: What is? What do you mean by that?

You: "God manifesting" is reality to us. Nothing in the world is something else, it is all God manifesting as creation.

Me again: Still not clear on what you mean by that. I know that this world is evidence of God's work of creating this planet, but a chicken or dog or some other kind of creature isn't the same thing as God.

Me: ...In reality God doesn't do nothing. God is always busy doing something.

You: Reality is the world to us. But imagination can conceive of "God" doing nothing, therefore it is not only possible it is true.

Me again: What you can imagine isn't necessarily true, though. There's a difference between reality and what is only imagination.

]You: Because a finite mind cannot imagine impossible things, i.e. things that "God" has not done.

Me again: God may have imagined it, but God didn't necessarily do what someone else has imagined.

]You: I don't care how much of a conundrum that assertion looks like, or how many facile examples you care to produce to disprove it, it is a fact and inescapably logical that a finite mind cannot transcend the infinite.

Then stop trying to do it by suggesting God has done what you can only imagine he did.

]You: God's mind is infinite, yours and mine are finite and always will be. If we can imagine "impossible" things, then we have transcended God as an all-powerful being by imagining something impossible to God. Not possible. See?

1: Something doesn't have to be impossible for God to have chosen not to do it. He has either done something or he hasn't. The fact that you can imagine he did what he didn't do does not mean God has done it. In truth, if he didn't, he didn't, regardless of what you can imagine him doing.

2: We don't transcend God by imagining impossible things, when or if we imagine impossible things. Imagination doesn't transcend reality.

3: You should try to be careful not to confuse what is in your imagination to how God is in reality. It can lead you to a lot of false ideas about things.

]You: The conundrum exists, I just said "it is not possible for a finite mind to imagine anything impossible", and then said "Not possible". I trap myself, we always do. It is part of "the perfect joke" pointed directly at mortal, finite beings by the Infinite.

You're the one telling the joke, and yeah, it is funny, a little.

Gotta run now. Maybe I'll respond to you some more later.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Ahab

[Stone holm]

D &C 19 contains the Mormon definition.

[Questing Beast]

@Ahab: I think we're about done with this. Your definition of what "imagination" is does not agree with mine. Your concept of what God means when he says he does not think without doing what he thinks is interpreted differently by me, because I view each of us as "extending" out from the Cause as created, sovereign individuals with free will. And at the moment we came to know ourselves as individuals "God" was "hands off" with each one of us. This means that our thoughts, while our own, yet cannot conceive of impossible things. Were we to have the power to imagine impossible things, our thoughts would have transcended God's thoughts. Because God is all powerful in the most infinite sense we cannot put the first limit on what is "possible" by saying something is impossible. For a finite mind to assert that a thing is impossible is hubris in the first degree, making that person out to be all-knowing. The most anyone can say factually is whether or not they have personal knowledge of a thing. "In my experience" should probably preface any declaration of "fact"....

[Ahab]

@Ahab: I think we're about done with this. Your definition of what "imagination" is does not agree with mine. Your concept of what God means when he says he does not think without doing what he thinks is interpreted differently by me, because I view each of us as "extending" out from the Cause as created, sovereign individuals with free will. And at the moment we came to know ourselves as individuals "God" was "hands off" with each one of us. This means that our thoughts, while our own, yet cannot conceive of impossible things. Were we to have the power to imagine impossible things, our thoughts would have transcended God's thoughts. Because God is all powerful in the most infinite sense we cannot put the first limit on what is "possible" by saying something is impossible. For a finite mind to assert that a thing is impossible is hubris in the first degree, making that person out to be all-knowing. The most anyone can say factually is whether or not they have personal knowledge of a thing. "In my experience" should probably preface any declaration of "fact"....

Yes, I think we're about done. As a final thought I'd like you to try to imagine something so blatantly ridiculous that would help you to see that what you can imagine isn't possible in reality. Not that you couldn't draw a picture of it or make a movie based on the idea but in reality it could never exist, aside from a work of fiction. In other words, it would be false and not true.

Go ahead. Knock yourself out. I thought of something in an instant but I think it might do you more good if you thought of something yourself. And remember what I said about how imagination doesn't transcend reality. No need to be afraid.

[Questing Beast]

Yes, I think we're about done. As a final thought I'd like you to try to imagine something so blatantly ridiculous that would help you to see that what you can imagine isn't possible in reality. Not that you couldn't draw a picture of it or make a movie based on the idea but in reality it could never exist, aside from a work of fiction. In other words, it would be false and not true.

Go ahead. Knock yourself out. I thought of something in an instant but I think it might do you more good if you thought of something yourself. And remember what I said about how imagination doesn't transcend reality. No need to be afraid.

Perhaps you missed/forgot the part about having faith in the "rules" that govern this world/universe. Of course, just because I can say "pink pixies inhabiting Pluto", I don't believe there have been or ever will be pink pixies inhabiting Pluto, not unless we put them there someday just to prove the point. Just because I can imagine the universe turning "inside out", and gravity thus reversing itself, resulting in all of this world flying apart into outer space, doesn't mean it will ever happen. But it can be made to happen because I can picture it. Not in this world/universe/venue, though, because faith says otherwise. In order to apply purpose to Existence we have to believe that things are as they are for a purpose. That faith eradicates the "possibilities" of unbridled imagination. But to take it one infinite step further and declare imagination to be separate from the power of "God" is indeed the most basic hubris, as I already said, making yourself out to be all-knowing....

[Ahab]

Perhaps you missed/forgot the part about having faith in the "rules" that govern this world/universe. Of course, just because I can say "pink pixies inhabiting Pluto", I don't believe there have been or ever will be pink pixies inhabiting Pluto, not unless we put them there someday just to prove the point. Just because I can imagine the universe turning "inside out", and gravity thus reversing itself, resulting in all of this world flying apart into outer space, doesn't mean it will ever happen. But it can be made to happen because I can picture it. Not in this world/universe/venue, though, because faith says otherwise. In order to apply purpose to Existence we have to believe that things are as they are for a purpose. That faith eradicates the "possibilities" of unbridled imagination. But to take it one infinite step further and declare imagination to be separate from the power of "God" is indeed the most basic hubris, as I already said, making yourself out to be all-knowing....

Yes, I apparently missed/forgot about that part, and that makes a big difference in my understanding of what you mean. And I wasn't thinking nor did I mean to imply that God can't also imagine things, it's just that not everything that can be imagined is possible in reality. And if you don't know, I'm using the term "reality" to refer to things as they are, or were, or will be. Truth, in other words. Both God and I can imagine false things. And I'm sure you can too, and maybe without even realizing it.

[Questing Beast]

"False things" would be better said, "inapplicable things", imho. Most, the vast amount, of our imaginative powers conjure up "inapplicable things", but nothing we imagine is ever "false". As I asserted earlier, our imaginations are the single attribute about our minds that seem to be the most godlike. God of course does everything imaginable. Nothing enters into the "mind" of God but that he does it. No idle thoughts! Our finite imaginations cannot conjure up thoughts that God does not have already....

[Ahab]

"False things" would be better said, "inapplicable things", imho.

As in not true in reality? If that's what you mean, I agree.

Most, the vast amount, of our imaginative powers conjure up "inapplicable things", but nothing we imagine is ever "false".

I'm using the word "false" to refer to things that aren't true in reality. The fact that I can imagine a pink elephant sitting on top of your head doens't mean it's truly there in reality.

As I asserted earlier, our imaginations are the single attribute about our minds that seem to be the most godlike.

Every part of us is godlike. We're already the same kind of being as the kind of being our Father is. We're just not as perfect as he is, yet. But we can become that perfect.

God of course does everything imaginable.

Which in your translation of that word would be "applicable"? And applicable to what, exactly?

Nothing enters into the "mind" of God but that he does it.

The scripture you may have in mind is referring to how when he sets his mind to do something, he does it. He can imagine a pink elephant and not make one.

No idle thoughts! Our finite imaginations cannot conjure up thoughts that God does not have already....

Does not have, or has not had? I can more easily agree with the latter than the former.

[williamsmith]

I personally don't like the label; the logic does not work too well for me. Is there another race of humans that are not the sons and daughters of God? Your assumptions and logical deductions are why I do not like it. God is the creator of all things, but his work and glory is to bring to pass our exaltation.

The scriptures and extra-Biblical texts clearly seem to indicate two races. One race was of the lineage of Adam, and others were of the "Children of men". Of course, when it concerns Mormonism, there have been two schools of thoughts on the matter, one literal in which Adam was the only and first man, and another of the two races, aka pre-adamites. Neither, are doctrine. The only doctrine is simply the Genesis/PoGP story, anything outside of that as far as "only" or others, is free speculation.

Personally I hold to the Pre-Adamite Theory because it goes well with what we know in science, doesn't conflict with the scriptures, nor what we know of "Israel" being a chosen lineaged people of God, being adopted into that lineage, etc.

Edited March 16, 2013 by williamsmith

[Stone holm]

The scriptures and extra-Biblical texts clearly seem to indicate two races. One race was of the lineage of Adam, and others were of the "Children of men". Of course, when it concerns Mormonism, there have been two schools of thoughts on the matter, one literal in which Adam was the only and first man, and another of the two races, aka pre-adamites. Neither, are doctrine. The only doctrine is simply the Genesis/PoGP story, anything outside of that as far as "only" or others, is free speculation.

Personally I hold to the Pre-Adamite Theory because it goes well with what we know in science, doesn't conflict with the scriptures, nor what we know of "Israel" being a chosen lineaged people of God, being adopted into that lineage, etc.

Although I have never been terribly comfortable with it, I had always been of the understanding that the GAs were saying that the Sons of God were the descendants of Seth and the daughters of men were references to other descendants of Adam not descended from Seth. Kind of a pre-Abrahamic Israelite vs gentile dichotomy. Mind you, I said I was never comfortable with that explanation.

[Questing Beast]

...

Me: God of course does everything imaginable.

Which in your translation of that word would be "applicable"? And applicable to what, exactly?

"Applicable" is what exists in this world. Of course an infinite number of other possibilities (imagination being limitless for all intents and purposes) occur "elsewhere", but not here.

The scripture you may have in mind is referring to how when he sets his mind to do something, he does it. He can imagine a pink elephant and not make one.

Both happen, pink elephants and no pink elephants. Just because we live in a venue where choosing one mutually excludes the other, does not put such limits on God.

No idle thoughts! Our finite imaginations cannot conjure up thoughts that God does not have already....

Does not have, or has not had? I can more easily agree with the latter than the former.

I had the thought, or I could not have written it. My thought is not transcending God's thought: I do not exist outside of God's thought. So anything I can imagine happens, but the vast majority of it is not "applicable" to here and now, i.e. is not part of what occurs in this world.

So anything I incompletely imagine is part of a greater, infinite reality, where yes in fact everything I imperfectly imagine is occurring as much as what is real here is occurring. The apparent conundrums of imaginative thought are caused only by ignorance of the full reality of infinite creation.

Say that one imagines God doing/being something that runs counter to the "rules" that govern this world: it is no cause for loss of faith, if our imagined actions, motivations and characteristics for God seem, because of our capacity to imagine opposites, to destroy the very concept for God that we have grown to love. Just because we can imagine God being a monster who loves torture above all other things, does not mean that God in fact prefers anything evil to that which is what we define as good. Yes, God is monstrous, because we can imagine that Is so.

But at once God is all-loving and perfectly Joyful. Which Is it to be with us? Perhaps there is more to the concept that "God Is what we expect him/her to be" than we are willing to accept. Faith demands that this world is at worst only a permutation of a darker one. If we have faith in the revealed nature of God that predominates in this world, then we are advancing to paradise and eternal Joy, step by step, together. But if we change our thinking to believe that God is an utter *******, does that then change God? Faith says no, imagination says maybe or even yes.

That is why I warned that this is dangerous ground to be thinking about God from.

But my faith says that God allows us the gift of unbridled imagination for a reason: and that reason is so that we will learn to not shrink from God, but to seek with our whole mind and desire, to use our imaginations to achieve good, even great things, which make the world better. God can do all those opposite things here, but chooses not to, and here we are to have faith that that will never change, because here in this world the "rules" keep all the dark opposites far away from us. We only have to believe it, have faith that God Is love to us, and all our dark imaginings will shed light on that love by virtue of the power that imagining the opposite state provides. None of it is real here, only the love and Joy is real here.

Mortality, being only a temporary learning ground to test the infinite "limits" of imagination, has no power over or impact upon immortality....

Edited March 16, 2013 by Questing Beast