It Is Not Personal

[Calm]

I should add that Greg's article should really be dismissed wholesale simply because of the citations he chose.

I mean, who on earth cites some idiotic grad school student? Shameful really.

No rep points so you get a

[Darren10]

On further reflection to my #298 post, exaltation does not only require man and woman to be married together but sealed together. And same sex marriage stands at complete odds to that doctrine. Same sex marriage can only lead to downfall. But, enough of my derailing this thread.

[Darren10]

No rep points so you get a

LoL - Did you notice the grad student Smith referenced on page one?

[Darren10]

Note the following from John Dehlin. There is no mention of a hit piece.

MORMON STORIES BOOK CLUB

Please support Mormon Stories by clicking this link before making any Amazon purchases.

Moving Forward

February 26, 2013

By John Dehlin

Stephen Smoot of the Student Review recently asked me to comment on the Greg Smith article. This was my response to Stephen, and it is the only public thing I plan on saying about the affair going forward.

========

Stephen,

I think my biggest regret in this whole ordeal is that I’ve allowed myself to be become a distraction to the real issue: that there are thousands of sincere LDS church members and former members who are struggling with their faith and/or their church-related experiences. I believe that they are in desperate need of greater empathy and support, and that they should be our collective focus.

I have no substantive response to Greg Smith’s article, other than to say that as I move forward with Mormon Stories, it will be with a renewed commitment to constructive dialogue centered around helping those in need.

Thanks for inquiring.

John Dehlin

Wow. After all the fuss he made for it to be published after the fuss he made to get it censored..he has "no substantive response to Greg Smith’s article". Could be he read it and discovered it's not a hit piece, eh?

[Calm]

LoL - Did you notice the grad student Smith referenced on page one?

And several other pages as well if it is the same one.

[William Schryver]

Note the following from John Dehlin. There is no mention of a hit piece.

MORMON STORIES BOOK CLUB

Please support Mormon Stories by clicking this link before making any Amazon purchases.

Moving Forward

February 26, 2013

By John Dehlin

Stephen Smoot of the Student Review recently asked me to comment on the Greg Smith article. This was my response to Stephen, and it is the only public thing I plan on saying about the affair going forward.

========

Stephen,

I think my biggest regret in this whole ordeal is that I’ve allowed myself to be become a distraction to the real issue: that there are thousands of sincere LDS church members and former members who are struggling with their faith and/or their church-related experiences. I believe that they are in desperate need of greater empathy and support, and that they should be our collective focus.

I have no substantive response to Greg Smith’s article, other than to say that as I move forward with Mormon Stories, it will be with a renewed commitment to constructive dialogue centered around helping those in need.

Thanks for inquiring.

John Dehlin

I was just about to "translate" this for you, Lou. But I ultimately decided I will save it for our next chat.

Suffice it to say that I don't believe John Dehlin will prove capable of resisting the urge to rebel against the leaders of the Church. So long as he can persuade himself that he is "getting his way," and shaping the Church according to his preferred image of what it should be, he will be content to "fly under the radar," and maintain a low profile.

But that will not last very long.

I will therefore save the link to this post for future reference ...

[Stargazer]

Yes, the word "coins" is anachronistic but they were obviously referring to Alma 11 wherein the "monetary system" (McConkie's header) is discussed in terms of "pieces of silver/gold" paid as wages. A 21st century reader would obviously apply the word "coin".

And the 21st century reader would obviously be guilty of "presentism". A careful reading reveals that Alma 11 is discussing weights and measures, not coins.

This reminds me of the guy who built a time machine and went back to Mexico during the time of the Emperor Maximilian, just so he could get Maximilian's autograph, these being very scarce in the present day. He made the mistake of having Maximilian sign his name using a ball-point pen, something that wouldn't be invented until 70 years after Maximilian's death. So, you go ahead and coin your gold onties and see what it gets you.

[emarkp]

So we're primarily talking about his message board interactions?

(Keep in mind I'm pretty recent to being up on this whole kerfuffle...)

It was just a couple of weeks ago (Feb 15) that Dehlin took some pretty abrasive stuff from this board to Peterson's Facebook page. After some pretty lengthy back and forth, Dehlin deleted all of his comments, leaving a mangled half-conversation.

Then Greg Smith's paper came out and I realized that's standard form for Dehlin. Wish I'd had Smith's foresight to cache the whole exchange. Of course when Smith does that for research he's criticized. Sigh.

Smith proved pretty conclusively that Mormon Stories is built on sand. Dehlin discredits himself more and more each day.

[emarkp]

Ah, yeah. It's not as if Greg set out to say nice things about it. That would have interfered with his whole train of thought.

I don't remember the paper addressing what Greg "set out to say" -- it does have conclusions though. Are you confusing the two?

So would you say Greg's review was a balanced review, with positive and negative aspects weighed equally?

Most people I've heard from say he was being very negative. Maybe we just need more people to say he was very positive?

Again the false question of balance. If there indeed is more negative, then how would you expect them to balance?

"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?"

Dehlin himself said that he believes more people have been led out of the church than have stayed because of Mormon Stories. Is that balanced?

Edited February 27, 2013 by emarkp

[rockpond]

Smith proved pretty conclusively that Mormon Stories is built on sand. Dehlin discredits himself more and more each day.

Mormon Stories is a series of podcasts and a community of people. The podcasts contain great content. Dehlin is a flawed individual -- he has never, to my knowledge, presented himself as something other than that.

I hope that we can all get through this "kerfuffle" and come out in a place where FAIR/MI, Mormon Stories, Dehlin, Peterson, Smith, Midgely, et. al. can all thrive and continue their goals of helping the saints.

[Louis Midgley]

I was just about to "translate" this for you, Lou. But I ultimately decided I will save it for our next chat.

Suffice it to say that I don't believe John Dehlin will prove capable of resisting the urge to rebel against the leaders of the Church. So long as he can persuade himself that he is "getting his way," and shaping the Church according to his preferred image of what it should be, he will be content to "fly under the radar," and maintain a low profile.

But that will not last very long.

I will therefore save the link to this post for future reference ...

I actually like very much his response to Greg's two papers. Seeing his own words quoted back at him and seeing the ruckus he generated in waging war on Greg Smith essay that he had not read, may have had a sanguine effect on John. I certainly hope so. I am toying with the idea of sending John a note urging him to take down the podcasts that clearly mock Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and cease blasting away at FAIR and Dan Peterson and so forth. I am hopeful that his remarks about people who are hurting, and there many, who need empathy (and I believe solid information) to overcome the acids of modernity that been eating away faith in Europe and now are doing the same thing in the USA and also, very unfortunately, among Latter-day Saints. The big problem is not sectarian countercult propaganda but exactly the kinds of things that tore aware John's own faith. I am, still not at all convinced, given the instability of his opinions, and his lack of solid information, that he is the one to lead the struggle against the darkness of this world. Doing this must be a team effort, and not a one-man show.

[Calm]

Dehlin himself said that he believes more people have been led out of the church than have stayed because of Mormon Stories. Is that balanced?

As far as I can tell he posts a number of testimonials to the fine work the website does in saving a family and souls, but I haven't yet heard of his posting the other side where a family member blames him for his parents divorce or for destroying the happiness of their family. He stated he was upset when he saw such things happening, but his only action was to remove himself from having contact with that side of the community, he has not as far as I can see attempted to do anything about what was cause the family pain and disruption.

So not a lot of balance there either. And with good reason.

[William Schryver]

I actually like very much his response to Greg's two papers. Seeing his own words quoted back at him and seeing the ruckus he generated in waging war on Greg Smith essay that he had not read, may have had a sanguine effect on John. I certainly hope so. I am toying with the idea of sending John a note urging him to take down the podcasts that clearly mock Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and cease blasting away at FAIR and Dan Peterson and so forth. I am hopeful that his remarks about people who are hurting, and there many, who need empathy (and I believe solid information) to overcome the acids of modernity that been eating away faith in Europe and now are doing the same thing in the USA and also, very unfortunately, among Latter-day Saints. The big problem is not sectarian countercult propaganda but exactly the kinds of things that tore aware John's own faith. I am, still not at all convinced, given the instability of his opinions, and his lack of solid information, that he is the one to lead the struggle against the darkness of this world. Doing this must be a team effort, and not a one-man show.

For someone who is allegedly so vicious, you consistently look for the good in people. That said, I believe you have misinterpreted Dehlin's comment. I hope your impression is correct, but I'm almost certain it is not, and that my prediction will prove true.

Anyway, it's way past my bedtime. I'll give you a call tomorrow and we'll chat a bit...

[rockpond]

I actually like very much his response to Greg's two papers. Seeing his own words quoted back at him and seeing the ruckus he generated in waging war on Greg Smith essay that he had not read, may have had a sanguine effect on John. I certainly hope so. I am toying with the idea of sending John a note urging him to take down the podcasts that clearly mock Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon,

Out of curiosity, which podcasts are the ones that clearly mock Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? I think I missed those.

and cease blasting away at FAIR and Dan Peterson and so forth

Ummm... okay. Didn't you just blast him by accusing him of mocking Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? But I agree, it's probably time for all sides to bury their weapons and find a way to work together in some sort of harmony.

[emarkp]

I hope that we can all get through this "kerfuffle" and come out in a place where FAIR/MI, Mormon Stories, Dehlin, Peterson, Smith, Midgely, et. al. can all thrive and continue their goals of helping the saints.

I don't think Dehlin has that goal. See pages 75 and on of the review.

Not to mention, based on the awful behavior of current MI folks, I'm not seeing much help coming from there either.

Edited February 27, 2013 by emarkp

[rockpond]

I don't think Dehlin has that goal. See pages 75 and on of the review.

I'm not sure any of the parties I mentioned have that goal. And yet, it is still my hope.

[Calm]

Out of curiosity, which podcasts are the ones that clearly mock Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? I think I missed those.

Ummm... okay. Didn't you just blast him by accusing him of mocking Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? But I agree, it's probably time for all sides to bury their weapons and find a way to work together in some sort of harmony.

He was commenting on his work while when Dehlin speaks of Dan, Lou and FAIR he uses words like crazy, thuggish, bullying and something along the line of pathological liar. There is, I believe, a significant different in the level of criticism, one may be harsh in some people's eyes, but the latter cross the line into abusive in my eyes. If Dehlin used the same level and quality of criticism that Lou, Dan uses and FAIR tries to use, there could be great improvement in all of our work as I see that as a level of constructive criticism myself though I understand that some see it as more extreme than that. Edited February 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[Louis Midgley]

1. Out of curiosity, which podcasts are the ones that clearly mock Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? I think I missed those.

2, Ummm... okay. Didn't you just blast him by accusing him of mocking Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? But I agree, it's probably time for all sides to bury their weapons and find a way to work together in some sort of harmony.

The answer to #1 is that you must not have read or understood Greg Smith's paper, And the answer to #2 is that i simply told the truth about what John has done in, for example, touting the wonders of Grant Palmer's book and feeding rubbish about the Book of Mormon and LDS scholarship on the Book of Mormon to Mike Coe. I don't think that the abrasive word blast fits telling the truth about something.

[emarkp]

Out of curiosity, which podcasts are the ones that clearly mock Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? I think I missed those.

Well, there's page 32 of the review.

Ummm... okay. Didn't you just blast him by accusing him of mocking Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?

Is it an "accusation" if it's got direct citation?

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm not sure any of the parties I mentioned have that goal.

Peterson says that that's his goal, and I trust him.

[Louis Midgley]

He was commenting on his work. When Dehlin speaks of Dan, Lou and FAIR he uses words like crazy, thuggish, bullying and something along the line of pathological liar. There is, I believe, a significant different in the level of criticism, one may be harsh in some people's eyes, but the latter cross the line into abusive in my eyes. If Dehlin used the same level and quality of criticism that Lou, Dan uses and FAIR tries to use, there could be great improvement in all of our work as I see that as a level of constructive criticism myself though I understand that some see it as more extreme than that.

This sums up part of my problems with Dehlin's various undertakings. I also don't quite see that the best person to help people in crisis over their faith in God and so forth is one who has lost his faith, and who is not at all informed on his own previous faith or grounds and reasons sustaining deepening faith. FAIR has done much of what John claims to have been doing, And the Maxwell Institute has provided a huge library of scholarship that can, if one is interesed, both susain and deepen faith and understanding. My experience is that those who complain about and mock either have not given much if any attention to either, and his, unfortunately, includes John Dehlin.

[emarkp]

Peterson says that that's his goal, and I trust him.

heh. I also trust your definition of "help" a wee bit more than that of some others.

[Tacenda]

LoL - Did you notice the grad student Smith referenced on page one?

Shh, Seth can hear you!

[Tacenda]

I was just about to "translate" this for you, Lou. But I ultimately decided I will save it for our next chat.

Suffice it to say that I don't believe John Dehlin will prove capable of resisting the urge to rebel against the leaders of the Church. So long as he can persuade himself that he is "getting his way," and shaping the Church according to his preferred image of what it should be, he will be content to "fly under the radar," and maintain a low profile.

But that will not last very long.

I will therefore save the link to this post for future reference ...

I respectfully disagree, I think John is sincere. He isn't using the church (my words) for anything other than to find happiness as he has stated he wasn't as happy without it, I don't believe this is some kind of ploy (my word).

[rockpond]

Peterson says that that's his goal, and I trust him.

I don't trust people who write about themselves in third person.

Just kidding... Thank you -- I am glad to hear it.