Gays Trying To Get Orson Scott Card Fired As A Comic Book Writer

[california boy]

Except only one of those (my companion) was a life long member. The others experienced their mental health issues outside of the church, either as non-members or non-members.

My lesbian friend was recently baptized. My graduate friend is not a member. All of the people I mentioned experienced a ton of love and support from friends and family. Only the one, my roommate, experienced an anxiety related to their orientation.

While discrimination, suppression of feelings, etc is a factor, I don't think we can rule out a biological cause either.

Ok so we can play other games over your anecdotal examples. It could be the type of gay people that get involved in the church have mental health issues. Or it could be that those with mental issues are drawn to your personality type. Does that help? The point is, you can not make some blanket assumption that gay people have mental disorders because they are gay based on your anecdotal evidence. To think there is an association to being gay that is causing the issues with your friends is just a guess on your own small personal experience.

[halconero]

Ok so we can play other games over your anecdotal examples. It could be the type of gay people that get involved in the church have mental health issues. Or it could be that those with mental issues are drawn to your personality type. Does that help? The point is, you can not make some blanket assumption that gay people have mental disorders because they are gay based on your anecdotal evidence. To think there is an association to being gay that is causing the issues with your friends is just a guess on your own small personal experience.

California boy, I think my typo caused some confusion. What I meant to say was "I do not believe that all homosexual behaviour or thought leads to mental health issues, but I also think that its silly and uncompassionate to ignore mental illness among those with said orientation."

Because of a mixture of auto correct, fat thumbs, and typing on a cell phone, it came out sounding the opposite.

To be clear, I don't think that homosexuality necessarily causes mental illness. There is a reality though, backed up by many studies (I can give you references if you want), that there is a high rate of mental illness among homosexuals. It might be caused by the stigma surrounding it, discrimination or other factors, I don't know. What I do know is that mental illness is often passed down genetically, among both hetero and homosexuals. Perhaps a combination of genetic and social factors come together to produce a higher rate among the homosexual population? I'm not sure, like you said, it's a guess.

In summary: Yes, I do think there is a correlation between being homosexual and having a higher rate of mental health issues. No, I don't think that homosexuality causes it. I also don't see mental illness as a bad, evil thing, or that there is something "wrong" with someone experiencing it. I'm also not saying that mental illness among those attracted to their own sex is a sign that homosexuals are sick, mentally disordered, etc.

What I am really saying is that many studies have shown a correlation. Let's find out if that correlation is based social factors, genetic, or something completely different.

[thesometimesaint]

Exactly how long ago was that? Long ago sounds like 200 years ago or at least 100 years ago. When you speak in such definitive terms and yet they have no basis in reality, it undermines your entire position. Just for clarity's sake, it was not until 1987 that all disorders related specifically to homosexual feelings/behaviors were removed from the publication of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders III. You are talking about something that did not change except in the last 26 years. This is not "long ago"; in fact it was in the very recent past. In addition, these are completely subjective positions taken by members of the APA. This is the type of exaggeration that puts everyone on edge; essentially you lie to aggrandize a weak position. It is far more honest to just admit that this has been, was, and remains a controversial topic. Just because the APA identifies it as "normal" (whatever that means) does not mean it is normal. The most you can say is the APA has determined that homosexual behavior is not currently identified as a mental disorder. I would add that nothing I have said demeans or belittles our brothers and sisters that have SSA. To the contrary, I believe they are exactly the way our Father in Heaven created them and I still view all sexual activity outside of marriage and between anything other than a man and a woman as a perversion of God has dictated to man. If individuals feel free to ignore God that is their choice and they will suffer the consequences of rejecting the will of God just like anyone else would.

While the study of psychology goes back to the ancient Greeks as a discipline of science it is less than 150 years old.

Space travel is about 50 years old. Is it any less of a science because it is so young?

Normal is considered within 2 standard deviations on a bell shape curve.

To be charitable computer science is about only 50 years old. Does the fact that we use them now instead of slide ruler's make the use of slide ruler's more accurate?

The age of a publically accept fact really isn't much of a determining factor in the reality of that fact. Did the discovery of the Van Allen Radiattion Belts change the fact that they were there all along?

All of science is subject by the standard you are employing.

I don't appreciate being called a liar by the likes of a religious bigot like you. Now that we've called each other names let's get back to the discussion at hand. OK?

At one time whether the earth was at the center of the universe or not was a controversial subject. People were burned at the stake for saying it wasn't. Science has a way of dispeling myths if not prejudices at least in most people.

SSA is not a mental illness. It widely exists in the animal kingdom including human's. Just as nakedness in and of itself is not a mental illness, exibistionism can be.

What you do behind closed doors, between the bed covers, with consenting adults is really none of my business, and certainly none of the states business. You can do it with a tree for all I care, but if you come to me, in my professionaal capacity and want to get married. We'll have a nice long talk on species boundries, and splinters.

To be sure you can yell perversion from your rooftop till you drop from exhaustion. It will do no good, and your neigbors will be right in calling you a crank. If not the police.

I have already said I consider homosexual actions to be a sin. You'd be surprized at what I consider a sin. I make SWK's "The Miracle of Forgiveness" a radical liberal's tome. That having been said, sin and mental illness are two different things.

[Stone holm]

While the study of psychology goes back to the ancient Greeks as a discipline of science it is less than 150 years old.

Space travel is about 50 years old. Is it any less of a science because it is so young?

Normal is considered within 2 standard deviations on a bell shape curve.

To be charitable computer science is about only 50 years old. Does the fact that we use them now instead of slide ruler's make the use of slide ruler's more accurate?

The age of a publically accept fact really isn't much of a determining factor in the reality of that fact. Did the discovery of the Van Allen Radiattion Belts change the fact that they were there all along?

All of science is subject by the standard you are employing.

I don't appreciate being called a liar by the likes of a religious bigot like you. Now that we've called each other names let's get back to the discussion at hand. OK?

At one time whether the earth was at the center of the universe or not was a controversial subject. People were burned at the stake for saying it wasn't. Science has a way of dispeling myths if not prejudices at least in most people.

SSA is not a mental illness. It widely exists in the animal kingdom including human's. Just as nakedness in and of itself is not a mental illness, exibistionism can be.

What you do behind closed doors, between the bed covers, with consenting adults is really none of my business, and certainly none of the states business. You can do it with a tree for all I care, but if you come to me, in my professionaal capacity and want to get married. We'll have a nice long talk on species boundries, and splinters.

To be sure you can yell perversion from your rooftop till you drop from exhaustion. It will do no good, and your neigbors will be right in calling you a crank. If not the police.

I have already said I consider homosexual actions to be a sin. You'd be surprized at what I consider a sin. I make SWK's "The Miracle of Forgiveness" a radical liberal's tome. That having been said, sin and mental illness are two different things.

Whoa, "Miracle of Forgiveness" a radical liberal's tome? I think that there just might be a few ERA supporters out there that might take exception to that characterisation of SWK. Are you meaning in relation to ETB? I think that deserves some explanation if not its own thread. Don't get me wrong, SWK is probably my favourite Prophet bu a liberal? I think not.

[thesometimesaint]

Whoa, "Miracle of Forgiveness" a radical liberal's tome? I think that there just might be a few ERA supporters out there that might take exception to that characterisation of SWK. Are you meaning in relation to ETB? I think that deserves some explanation if not its own thread. Don't get me wrong, SWK is probably my favourite Prophet bu a liberal? I think not.

I said I make SWK's "The Miracle of Forgivness" a radical liberal tome. IOW; When it comes to what I consider sin. I'm much more strict than even SWK's book.

[Stone holm]

I said I make SWK's "The Miracle of Forgivness" a radical liberal tome. IOW; When it comes to what I consider sin. I'm much more strict than even SWK's book.

Wherever your position on the political spectrum may be, that isn't a "radical liberal tome", unless you consider Jesus Christ to have been a radical liberal. But don't think a thread on that question would last long on this Board.

[TAO]

To be quite honest, the idea of 'mental illness' is a bit flawed. It doesn't bear an issue on anything in the slightest. People who are considered 'mentally ill' don't consider themselves to be so.

[thesometimesaint]

Wherever your position on the political spectrum may be, that isn't a "radical liberal tome", unless you consider Jesus Christ to have been a radical liberal. But don't think a thread on that question would last long on this Board.

That isn't what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with politics it is my criterion on what I consider is a sin. SWK lists A,B, and C as sins. I say A,B,C,D,E,F,and G are also sins.

For the times Jesus was a radical liberal and he was crucified for it. IE; Turn the other cheek; walk the extra mile; give up you cloak, and coat; forgive 7 times 70, etc,,etc.,etc..

[thesometimesaint]

To be quite honest, the idea of 'mental illness' is a bit flawed. It doesn't bear an issue on anything in the slightest. People who are considered 'mentally ill' don't consider themselves to be so.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[Tacenda]

TSS said: "At one time whether the earth was at the center of the universe or not was a controversial subject. People were burned at the stake for saying it wasn't. Science has a way of dispelling myths if not prejudices at least in most people."

This stuck out to me, and I equate it to mean that we were burning gays at the stake, not literally but because we just didn't know the full picture. Now we're seeing science is proving that gays were genetically born that way, and dispelling the myth and hopefully the prejudice.

[Sleeper Cell]

At one time whether the earth was at the center of the universe or not was a controversial subject. People were burned at the stake for saying it wasn't. Science has a way of dispeling myths if not prejudices at least in most people.

Today, we don’t burn dissenters at the stake. We use boycotts.

[Calm]

Now we're seeing science is proving that gays were genetically born that way

I don't think the science supports the idea that genetics is the answer, after all there are plenty of identical twins out there where one is gay and the other isn't, though the rate is significant enough to say something biological is going on. My memory says the latest theory is there is variation to exposure of hormones and other stuff in the womb between the fetuses that accounts for the difference in identical twins, thus leading to the theory that variations of hormones and stuff in the womb are the primary cause of at least homosexual tendencies, if not outright attraction.

And if this is what someone believes to be the cause of homosexuality, then I think that says something about whether or not it has to be an eternal characteristic or not.

[TAO]

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Alas, it is just a river in Egypt. Who's to say that the ones accusing denial aren't the ones in denial? That's why accusations of denial (essentially saying they are wrong because they cannot imagine they are wrong) don't do much good. They may even perhaps be a fallacy.

[Stone holm]

To be quite honest, the idea of 'mental illness' is a bit flawed. It doesn't bear an issue on anything in the slightest. People who are considered 'mentally ill' don't consider themselves to be so.

The mental health argument is one that just leads into a quagmire. There are those who are pushing for religious fundamentalism to be considered a mental health issue. The next step would land Mormons in the category.

[halconero]

To be quite honest, the idea of 'mental illness' is a bit flawed. It doesn't bear an issue on anything in the slightest. People who are considered 'mentally ill' don't consider themselves to be so.

CFR that people with mental illness don't consider themselves to have it.

Bull pucky.

[Stone holm]

CFR that people with mental illness don't consider themselves to have it.

Bull pucky.

Some do some don't. Some forms are not obvious to the person suffering from delusions. In other cases, the people are painfully aware. In other cases people are not mentally ill at all, but are made to believe they are because they don't conform to social norms.

[halconero]

Some do some don't. Some forms are not obvious to the person suffering from delusions. In other cases, the people are painfully aware. In other cases people are not mentally ill at all, but are made to believe they are because they don't conform to social norms.

I can agree with this statement. What I disagree with is the blanket statement that people don't consider themselves mentally ill or that it doesn't really exist.

[TAO]

The mental health argument is one that just leads into a quagmire. There are those who are pushing for religious fundamentalism to be considered a mental health issue. The next step would land Mormons in the category.

Definitely. To be quite honest, 'mental illness' in and of itself is a troublesome concept, and ultimately is kind of meaningless. As of such, using it in an argument is well... not very convincing.

[TAO]

CFR that people with mental illness don't consider themselves to have it.

Bull pucky.

Ah woops, I made an unintended universal. Let me correct that.

Some people with mental illnesses don't consider themselves to have it.

This is troublesome because at that point you can't use it as an argument anymore while talking to them.

[TAO]

I can agree with this statement. What I disagree with is the blanket statement that people don't consider themselves mentally ill or that it doesn't really exist.

Yeah, sorry, I made a mistake about that. Technically I do have a "mental illness", and yeah, I do consider myself to have it (not that I really consider it an illness), so yeah, it was a mistake.

[Stone holm]

Definitely. To be quite honest, 'mental illness' in and of itself is a troublesome concept, and ultimately is kind of meaningless. As of such, using it in an argument is well... not very convincing.

Although a troublesome concept, certain mental illnesses do exist -- but it is problematic in certain discussions because mental illness treatment is sometimes a cover for merely forcing conformity to certain cultural norms.

[TAO]

Although a troublesome concept, certain mental illnesses do exist -- but it is problematic in certain discussions because mental illness treatment is sometimes a cover for merely forcing conformity to certain cultural norms.

Mmm... I'm not sure you get my point. If a person doesn't consider having a 'mental illness' to be a defect, what use is classifying them as having a mental illness in the first place? There is no use. 'Mental Illness' is a classification of non-usual behavior, and if a person doesn't care that they are acting usually, it's quite pointless to point it out, if you know what I mean. In other words, it's becomes a useless classification, that doesn't mean much in the long run.

[thesometimesaint]

TSS said: "At one time whether the earth was at the center of the universe or not was a controversial subject. People were burned at the stake for saying it wasn't. Science has a way of dispelling myths if not prejudices at least in most people."

This stuck out to me, and I equate it to mean that we were burning gays at the stake, not literally but because we just didn't know the full picture. Now we're seeing science is proving that gays were genetically born that way, and dispelling the myth and hopefully the prejudice.

In 342 CE, the Christian emperors Constantius and Constans declared same-sex marriage to be illegal.Shortly after, in the year 390 CE, emperors Valentinian ll, Theodosius 1 and Aracadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be publicly burned alive.

I don't believe it is purely a genetic trait. Studies of genetic twins show they are no more prone to it than the general population. Myself I believe it is a combination of factors like genetic predisposition, environmental factors, and idiosyncratic factors largely beyond their personal control. What exactly is that combination? I don't have a clue.

[thesometimesaint]

Today, we don’t burn dissenters at the stake. We use boycotts.

I've boycotted Walmart for years now. I don't believe it has made any difference to the Waltons fortune.

[thesometimesaint]

Stone holm, on 14 August 2013 - 07:10 PM, said: The mental health argument is one that just leads into a quagmire. There are those who are pushing for religious fundamentalism to be considered a mental health issue. The next step would land Mormons in the category.

Over religiousity is already a mental health issue. IE; When someone really believes they are Jesus the Christ(delusional), or when they use their religious rights to infringe on the religious rights of others(usually called a sociopath).