Richard Bushman'S Description Of Faith Crisis

[mathonihah]

I don't know you very well; but judging by your posts you appear to be an unbeliever. I am a believer. So basically you are asking the wrong question of the wrong guy.

Do not make this personal.

I was not being personal. I was making an impartial observation.

[mathonihah]

Mathonihah, this is a warning. Read the Board Guidelines. Judging others is not allowed and calling people transgressors is not acceptable because they disagree with you.

I am not calling anybody a transgressor who disagrees with me. I am calling Oliver Cowdery a transgressor because that is what the Lord called him. Please show me where I have called anybody who disagrees with me a transgressor, or withdraw your accusation.

[Calm]

Please show me where I have called anybody who disagrees with me a transgressor, or withdraw your accusation.

Going to ban the mod if he doesn't "withdraw the accusation"?

[Tacenda]

Going to ban the mod if he doesn't "withdraw the accusation"?

I'm afraid it was my post that got him in trouble. (Post #166) Edited February 9, 2013 by Tacenda

[mathonihah]

Going to ban the mod if he doesn't "withdraw the accusation"?

No, but one expects the mods to show integrity as they expect the posters to do. Are there no rules against mods insulting and falsely accusing posters? Perhaps there should be. That accusation is false and a personal insult. If the mod has any integrity, he/she will acknowledge his/her mistake, apologise, and withdraw the accusation.

We have no integrity. You are out of the thread.

[mathonihah]

Most bishops are unequipped to handle a member in faith crisis

Elder Marlin Jensen stated - and please don't brush off Elder Jensen. You may want to talk the the church leaders and get their opinion of Elder Jensen and his role of assisting the twelve in helping those in crisis. I am personally familiar with this situation and with Elder Jensen and his having been assigned by the members of the 12 to help those in crisis on many occasions.

Actually I can assure you from first hand knowledge that these men have had an effect on policy changes that have happened, are happening, and will happen due to their sessions conversing with the top 15

I don't claim to have inside knowledge of anything, and I can't argue with those who claim they do.

[Cold Steel]

Which shows you have no grasp of faith crisis, why it happens, what is the best approach to deal with it. One can have a testimony of the gospel through the Holy Ghost, but having as part of their testimony the false teachings of some leaders who have written false teachings in books and said them in their talks, who have understood the church through the filters of those who taught them and seemed to teach them truth in their wards but instead taught gospel speculation as truth.

Yes, but bear me out.

What if I don’t care about limited geography, DNA, Adam-God, polygamy, Joseph Smith’s first vision stories and such. And some doctrines, like the dissolution of the sons of perdition, may probably even be correct. I don’t mind speculation on the part of our leaders, and when Elder McConkie states that he doesn’t believe the ten tribes are in single body somewhere, fine. I don’t share his beliefs, but if I’m wrong, I’ll be disappointed, but not disappointed to the point of leaving the church.

To me, the number one thing to avoid in life is apostasy. And one doesn’t have to apostatize. One may resort to what Kierkegaard is reported to have called a “leap in faith” or as others have called a “leap of faith.” One can eternally search for the truth or one may choose to withhold judgment without suffering cognitive dissonance. We’re here on Earth to live by faith, by living and believing without empirical proof. That’s not to say we shouldn’t welcome evidence, but proof will not come until later.

I recall reading the story of an early convert to the church who read the Book of Mormon and was particularly impressed by the three Nephite apostles who were promised not taste of death until the second advent of Christ. For some reason he was led to pray concerning them and to ask God for the privilege of meeting them if it was His will. He later recounted that he didn’t know how the man entered his home, as the doors were locked, but one of the disciples appeared to him and, to his surprise, rebuked him severely. The Nephite testified to the verity of the Book of Mormon, conveyed some other things and then solemnly warned him to remember his experience, because if he ever apostatized it would be worse for him as he had a sure witness. And the man quickly joined the church, never denied that testimony and died in full faith and fellowship in Utah. (I don’t have the documentation for this story at hand, but if someone can provide it, please do.)

One of the things that has impressed me most about the LDS church over the years is that its prophets speak in confidence, power, and always seem to be without the slightest degree of doubt. I can't say the same of the leaders of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, many of whom have had faith crises of their own. At least two have quit right in the middle of their tenures and in the early 70s met W. Wallace Smith, the son of Joseph III and the grandson of Joseph Smith. Although very personable, he clearly lacked, in my view, the slightest conviction that his grandfather was the great prophet of the Restoration. In fact, both he and my RLDS friends seemed to have a very narrow perspective of Joseph Smith’s mission. We view the Restoration as a superbly marvelous event that will carry the world into the Millennium. While the remnant of humanity fights and contends amongst each other, it will be the prophets and apostles of this church that will oversee the development of Zion into a world political power. But the RLDS leadership has no such concept, nor have they confidence in themselves as the ones who will establish and propel the righteous into the next phase of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

I’ve been aware for some time that there’s been a problem with faith crises amongst some of our members, but for the life of me I can’t see why. I think we have more going for us than any other religion on Earth. And if I found myself, for whatever reason, slipping, I’d bury whatever I was reading and make that leap of faith; because, ultimately, we’re responsible for our own spiritual health.

One has built [an] incorrect foundation, but one that still included the spirit witnessing to the truthful part. Once one has that house of cards crash, and also realizes that people of all faiths have spiritual experiences, that for some brings the house down...and your comments [minimize] their crisis and makes them feel like [you] are saying, “Shame on you, you never had a testimony to begin with!”

A person can choose whether to have a spiritual or faith crisis or not, and my intent isn’t to belittle anyone. One of our apologists on this site has said that he has been reading a large number of atheistic books, and now it seems he’s been having a faith crisis of sorts. My point is, has he been planting the seeds of faith in his heart or the seeds of doubt? No one can doubt that the faith crises in this church correlates directly with the Internet Age. God has entrusted us with great knowledge and he has put on each of us the responsibility to choose with wisdom what we internalize.

Brigham Young reminded members of the church in his day that those who lose the Spirit of God can expect two things; one, they will lose the ability to act in their own self interest, and two, that spiritual light which they have will be “taken” (not lost or forgotten). How or why this happens is beyond me, but I know it’s true because I’ve seen it happen more than once. And these are tough penalties.

You also say some may falter if they realize “that people of all faiths have spiritual experiences.” Actually, I find that difficult to believe because it’s an entrenched LDS doctrine that people of all faiths do have spiritual experiences. In fact, what kind of loving Father would only give spiritual meat to some of his children?

Some of our authorities have taught that the Lord answers the prayers of the faithful in other religions by helping them select righteous leaders, restore their members to good health and to assist in times of need. And there have been many examples of prophecies uttered by non-LDS which have come true. That said, we also must test the spirits. Some may speak in tongues, in and out of the church, and some may be of God or the Devil in and out of the church. Still others may be of men, and I’ve also heard my share of Pentecostals who babble like babies and think they’re speaking in tongues. I even think those who tithe in faith to other churches receive similar if not identical blessings to those we receive. I don’t think this would come as a shock to any latter-day saint. You mentioned “angels” and “audible voices”—and we should be wary of these, too. Joan of Arc and the Fatima children had paranormal experiences that made the people of their day wonder. Our job is to listen and obey our own revelations and let others worry about their own.

So Emma wasn’t converted? Was Oliver Cowdery converted? How about David Whitmer?

They knew the gospel is true and that the Book of Mormon was an actual historical religious writing inspired of God.

Help me reconcile your statement with these three individuals.... Did they not have testimonies from the Spirit? And if they did why did all three for long spaces of time no longer believe the church was the one with authority (only one returned). And any rational explanation you give, why wouldn’t they apply to any other person who struggles with their testimony of the church?

In my opinion, they all knew the church was true. And, in my opinion, they did not fall away because of the lack of belief, but because of pride, perceived injury and the persecution. None, even Emma, ever doubted for a moment Joseph's calling and that he experienced what he said he experienced. Emma was grieved by the fact that after all she had endured, she was left alone. To her, the gospel was her husband, and she was angry, I think, at the remnant of the church and at the Lord, himself, over the practice of polygamy. She certainly knew the truth about that practice and even though other women had sacrificed their husbands to the vicious persecutions, I believe Emma's burden was unique. Add to that that Joseph’s righteousness was such that he may have been able to successfully vie for her salvation despite her weakness. As for Oliver, Sydney, Martin and others? Who knows? I think Oliver gave up a lot, but I'm also of the view that he will be among those called forth in the first resurrection to gain eternal life. Sydney Rigdon, supremely eloquent, suffered greatly for the church and injuries sustained in his early defense of the faith may have led to his later erratic behavior and leaving the church. But I’m content to leave these things, including Martin Harris’ judgment, to those who are higher up on my pay grade scale.

Show me where a church leader in the last 20 years has said Oliver Cowdery sinned and that caused his unbelief. Are you aware of the historical information which lends one to understand that the active Qof12 perhaps treated Oliver unfairly?

I've heard many contend this, but it really doesn't matter what the Quorum of the Twelve did or didn't do or think, or whether Joseph Smith treated him fairly. The issue is, could Oliver have prevented his own apostasy? The answer is, yes, of course! Was the loss of his blessings as the Second Elder worth being right on whatever issue the Twelve was sitting in judgment on? The priesthood is something I'm very grateful for in my life, and I wouldn't let it go for any reason I can presently think of. Were I were convinced that the church was in error, I would simply be of the mind that I never held it. This I cannot do. But if I do, indeed, hold it, I know I can retain it by a self determination, not in unrighteousness, but in holding steady, avoiding things that discourage belief and by taking to heart the things that encourage it.

Recommended reading:

Take Heed That Ye Be Not Deceived

.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Cold Steel

[Storm Rider]

Cold, I think you have added something of value. Regardless of the actions of others, ours is the responsibility to hold to the rod and progress in righteousness and faith. Those who abuse the authority have only one person to answer for and that is the Lord, Jesus Christ. We each bear the consequences of our sin unless we repent. That repentance process is real and the path must be walked by each of us. When leaders err, they bear the responsibility and we must go forward with an eye single to his glory.

[Cold Steel]

Thanks, SR, and very well said. There are those who think such an attitude flies in the face of intellect, but years ago I suffered doubt and I wasn't happy. The Salamander Letter stunned me and it wasn't something I could rationalize away at the time. As a convert, I believed fiercely in the church, but I decided to just get on with life and put the letter behind me. After all, there was nothing else like it, and it was so different from the rest of the foundational documents. Some did leave the church and I wonder how many of them came back when it was safe.

The thing is, if you think you've been deceived, you really haven't been converted. That doesn't mean you can't suffer doubts over things you can't answer, but to bail out of the church would require disbelieving the Book of Mormon. You'd have to throw away the brilliant theology and insightful discourses of not only Joseph Smith, but Wilford Woodruff, Parley P. Pratt, Lorenzo Snow, Orson Hyde, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young and many, many others, any one of which would be worthy to be a prophet and to have visions and other revelations. The writings they left are a remarkable legacy. With this in mind, I think one would have to be nuts to doubt the church or to have a faith crisis. Just read their life stories. Even if you could dismiss the Smith brothers, the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Mother and Father Smith and the Book of Mormon, you'd be faced with these other men and their visions, revelations and their integrity and virtue.

So if I have to close my eyes now and then to grasp the rod, I think that's the way to go.

[DBMormon]

Yes, but bear me out.

What if I don’t care about limited geography, DNA, Adam-God, polygamy, Joseph Smith’s first vision stories and such. And some doctrines, like the dissolution of the sons of perdition, may probably even be correct. I don’t mind speculation on the part of our leaders, and when Elder McConkie states that he doesn’t believe the ten tribes are in single body somewhere, fine. I don’t share his beliefs, but if I’m wrong, I’ll be disappointed, but not disappointed to the point of leaving the church.

To me, the number one thing to avoid in life is apostasy. And one doesn’t have to apostatize. One may resort to what Kierkegaard is reported to have called a “leap in faith” or as others have called a “leap of faith.” One can eternally search for the truth or one may choose to withhold judgment without suffering cognitive dissonance. We’re here on Earth to live by faith, by living and believing without empirical proof. That’s not to say we shouldn’t welcome evidence, but proof will not come until later.

I recall reading the story of an early convert to the church who read the Book of Mormon and was particularly impressed by the three Nephite apostles who were promised not taste of death until the second advent of Christ. For some reason he was led to pray concerning them and to ask God for the privilege of meeting them if it was His will. He later recounted that he didn’t know how the man entered his home, as the doors were locked, but one of the disciples appeared to him and, to his surprise, rebuked him severely. The Nephite testified to the verity of the Book of Mormon, conveyed some other things and then solemnly warned him to remember his experience, because if he ever apostatized it would be worse for him as he had a sure witness. And the man quickly joined the church, never denied that testimony and died in full faith and fellowship in Utah. (I don’t have the documentation for this story at hand, but if someone can provide it, please do.)

One of the things that has impressed me most about the LDS church over the years is that its prophets speak in confidence, power, and always seem to be without the slightest degree of doubt. I can't say the same of the leaders of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, many of whom have had faith crises of their own. At least two have quit right in the middle of their tenures and in the early 70s met W. Wallace Smith, the son of Joseph III and the grandson of Joseph Smith. Although very personable, he clearly lacked, in my view, the slightest conviction that his grandfather was the great prophet of the Restoration. In fact, both he and my RLDS friends seemed to have a very narrow perspective of Joseph Smith’s mission. We view the Restoration as a superbly marvelous event that will carry the world into the Millennium. While the remnant of humanity fights and contends amongst each other, it will be the prophets and apostles of this church that will oversee the development of Zion into a world political power. But the RLDS leadership has no such concept, nor have they confidence in themselves as the ones who will establish and propel the righteous into the next phase of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

I’ve been aware for some time that there’s been a problem with faith crises amongst some of our members, but for the life of me I can’t see why. I think we have more going for us than any other religion on Earth. And if I found myself, for whatever reason, slipping, I’d bury whatever I was reading and make that leap of faith; because, ultimately, we’re responsible for our own spiritual health.

A person can choose whether to have a spiritual or faith crisis or not, and my intent isn’t to belittle anyone. One of our apologists on this site has said that he has been reading a large number of atheistic books, and now it seems he’s been having a faith crisis of sorts. My point is, has he been planting the seeds of faith in his heart or the seeds of doubt? No one can doubt that the faith crises in this church correlates directly with the Internet Age. God has entrusted us with great knowledge and he has put on each of us the responsibility to choose with wisdom what we internalize.

Brigham Young reminded members of the church in his day that those who lose the Spirit of God can expect two things; one, they will lose the ability to act in their own self interest, and two, that spiritual light which they have will be “taken” (not lost or forgotten). How or why this happens is beyond me, but I know it’s true because I’ve seen it happen more than once. And these are tough penalties.

You also say some may falter if they realize “that people of all faiths have spiritual experiences.” Actually, I find that difficult to believe because it’s an entrenched LDS doctrine that people of all faiths do have spiritual experiences. In fact, what kind of loving Father would only give spiritual meat to some of his children?

Some of our authorities have taught that the Lord answers the prayers of the faithful in other religions by helping them select righteous leaders, restore their members to good health and to assist in times of need. And there have been many examples of prophecies uttered by non-LDS which have come true. That said, we also must test the spirits. Some may speak in tongues, in and out of the church, and some may be of God or the Devil in and out of the church. Still others may be of men, and I’ve also heard my share of Pentecostals who babble like babies and think they’re speaking in tongues. I even think those who tithe in faith to other churches receive similar if not identical blessings to those we receive. I don’t think this would come as a shock to any latter-day saint. You mentioned “angels” and “audible voices”—and we should be wary of these, too. Joan of Arc and the Fatima children had paranormal experiences that made the people of their day wonder. Our job is to listen and obey our own revelations and let others worry about their own.

They knew the gospel is true and that the Book of Mormon was an actual historical religious writing inspired of God.

In my opinion, they all knew the church was true. And, in my opinion, they did not fall away because of the lack of belief, but because of pride, perceived injury and the persecution. None, even Emma, ever doubted for a moment Joseph's calling and that he experienced what he said he experienced. Emma was grieved by the fact that after all she had endured, she was left alone. To her, the gospel was her husband, and she was angry, I think, at the remnant of the church and at the Lord, himself, over the practice of polygamy. She certainly knew the truth about that practice and even though other women had sacrificed their husbands to the vicious persecutions, I believe Emma's burden was unique. Add to that that Joseph’s righteousness was such that he may have been able to successfully vie for her salvation despite her weakness. As for Oliver, Sydney, Martin and others? Who knows? I think Oliver gave up a lot, but I'm also of the view that he will be among those called forth in the first resurrection to gain eternal life. Sydney Rigdon, supremely eloquent, suffered greatly for the church and injuries sustained in his early defense of the faith may have led to his later erratic behavior and leaving the church. But I’m content to leave these things, including Martin Harris’ judgment, to those who are higher up on my pay grade scale.

I've heard many contend this, but it really doesn't matter what the Quorum of the Twelve did or didn't do or think, or whether Joseph Smith treated him fairly. The issue is, could Oliver have prevented his own apostasy? The answer is, yes, of course! Was the loss of his blessings as the Second Elder worth being right on whatever issue the Twelve was sitting in judgment on? The priesthood is something I'm very grateful for in my life, and I wouldn't let it go for any reason I can presently think of. Were I were convinced that the church was in error, I would simply be of the mind that I never held it. This I cannot do. But if I do, indeed, hold it, I know I can retain it by a self determination, not in unrighteousness, but in holding steady, avoiding things that discourage belief and by taking to heart the things that encourage it.

Recommended reading:

Take Heed That Ye Be Not Deceived

.

I enjoyed this post. I agree we can all hold on through humilty which is the key that turns us to Christ. And we both agree it is not always a lack of testimony that causes the problem. I think we can be on the same page here. with a little leeway for individual understanding.... thank you

[DBMormon]

The thing is, if you think you've been deceived, you really haven't been converted.

So if I have to close my eyes now and then to grasp the rod, I think that's the way to go.

I agree with the first statement but simply will add, you never want to use that sentence as your approach with one who is struggling. It will come off offensive, but yes I agree with that. But to be truly converted is not simple and most members do not grasp this. So many in and out are not truly converted.

secondly... we must be careful we are not clinging to the rod and rather holding fast to it. One falls away, the other makes it to the tree and stays.

[Deborah]

So if I have to close my eyes now and then to grasp the rod, I think that's the way to go.

You expressed my thoughts on the matter. When I have had doubts it was all those things you described that kept me anchored. How could I throw out those things because I didn't understand this one thing.