One Of Brigham'S Bad Dreams?

[inquiringmind]

I read about a nightmare Brigham Young supposedly had, where he saw someone shoot himself and then hand him the gun.

http://www.examiner....f-brigham-young

I'd like to know if this is true, and what Brigham thought about it.

Did he record the details in his journal?

Was it recorded by someone else who heard him speak about it?

And what exactly did he say (or write) about it?

I'm interested in how he interpreted it (and what, if anything, he thought it meant) , but I can't find any of the details online.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Edited January 4, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Buzzard]

I've had some funky dreams myself. If I remember details and tell my wife, she just rolls her eyes and says it's proof I'm crazy. Don't know why BY wouldn't have a few of these himeself. And he had 26 wives to share the strangeness with.

[inquiringmind]

I've had some funky dreams myself. If I remember details and tell my wife, she just rolls her eyes and says it's proof I'm crazy. Don't know why BY wouldn't have a few of these himeself. And he had 26 wives to share the strangeness with.

Yea, the web site, says it was probably due to stress

Some of his dreams were quite gruesome, probably the result of stress, such a dreaming of devils after fainting while having four teeth extracted. In another bloody dream, he watches a man shoot himself, who then hands the gun to Brigham,

but that's all it says, and I'd like to know more.

Like did Brigham think it was a meaningless dream brought on by stress, or did he see it as some kind of a metaphor?

And how do we even know about it?

Did he talk about it publicly, or record it in his journal, and what did he say?

Was it just "a man," or someone that he knew?

These are some of the things I'd like to know about this dream.

Edited January 4, 2013 by inquiringmind

[BookofMormonLuvr]

*** In this corner we have...***

-- Jun 12, 1860

[Wilford Woodruff Journal] ...President Young told the following drem which he had last night. He said I dreamed that I was in a room with Phineas Young and I saw a smooth faced young man setting beside him. I asked Phineas who it was. He replyed this is the saviour. (I did not believe it.) I smiled and said I wonder if he is the saviour. Phineas said he was. I then asked the person if he was the Savior. He said he was. I asked him if [so] how long have you been here? He said 14 days. I said have you a wife? He said yes this is my wife pointing to a woman dressed in black with a thick dark veil over her face. Said this is my wife. I thought it a funny idea. I felt that I wanted to prove him. Soon the woman vanished and he turned into a woman himself. Then I awoke and the thought Came to me that it was a representation of young Joseph & Emma Smith who had undertook to Esstablished a Church but it was upon fals ground & principles in oposition to the true Church of Christ. I was satisfied he was not the saviour....

***VS.***

VISION BY PRESIDENT JOSEPH SMITH

In 1883, some of you will remember, I had a controversy in writing with L. O. Littlefield in the far wast, and some of you thought I had picked up a job that I could not get through with. After I had written the third letter and they had published it in the Logan paper, I was something in doubt, and I made it a matter of prayer and study as to what should be the character of my fourth letter in reply to Mr. Littlefield. I suddenly found myself, after my evening devotions, in a room where my mother was. It is just as literal and real to me as I see you people this afternoon. It was a two-story house such as we frequently see, about sixteen by twenty-four, without a division in the center; upon the one side at the end was her stove, and right over the other side was her table, and next the door to the right was the chair where I sat. Mother had just got her dishes done and had wrung out her dish cloth and hung up her pan against the wall as you women folks do, you know, and she had taken her side comb out of her hair and combed her hair as they did in the old-fashioned way. She took some hair down on either side of her face and rolled it up and stuck a pin though it—you've seen it done, many of you. She took off her apron that she had been using and put on a clean one, drew the white handkerchief like some of you used to wear, across her breast and sat down on the chair and said to me, "Now, Joseph, your father is here and you can ask him the questions that you have been asking me, to see whether I have been telling you the truth or not." Now, remember, mother died as I told you awhile ago, aged seventy-four, with all the marks of age upon her; and as she sat in that chair, she was about thirty-five years of age. All that she seemed to have lost was restored to her. I did not mark it at the time, but when she spoke of my father, I turned to the left and there, on an old-fashioned settee, I saw my father. In my estimation father presented an appearance more matured than when I saw him last; he was an older man, such as he might have been had he lived to be forty-two. That is my understanding of it. I turned and asked him the question, "Father, do you know what mother and I have been talking about?" He said, "Yes, my son, I do." "Are you prepared to answer the question whether she has told me the truth or not?" "I am." "What is your answer?" "You may depend upon it that your mother has told you nothing but the truth."

My way to answer Mr. Littlefield was made clear; he could not have told me in clearer terms possible what my answer to Mr. Littlefield should be; and I answered Mr. Littlefield according to that proposition, and Mr. Littlefield has never replied to it to this day. Then the brethren thought that I had accomplished the job that I had undertaken.

—Zion's Ensign, December 22, 1894, in sermon on "Future Conditions."

*** In a battle of dueling dreams/visions. ***

Edited January 5, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr

[blackstrap]

So many dark,dank,dusty,cobweb infested corners to investigate for spirtual enlightenment,so little time.

[inquiringmind]

I can't seem to find any more about the dream where BY supposedly saw someone shoot himself and hand him the gun (so I'm starting to think maybe someone just made that up), but I did find this.

-- Dec 12, 1856

[Apostle Wilford Woodruff Journal] ...On the night of the 3d inst. the night before J[edediah] M. Grant was buried Mrs Batsheba Smith wife of G[eorge] A. Smith dreamed that George A. Smith was dead & that some other person wished to marry her which troubled her mind. On the same night Mrs Rose dreamed that George A. Smith was hung in Washing[ton] by the members of Congress because he was a Mormon. (1)

http://lds-church-hi...nov-2-1856.html

Was a George A. Smith hung for being a Mormon in Washington?

I can't find any, but Batsheba Smith seems to have been married to the George A. Smith who was grandfather of Church President George Albert Smith(and who died in Salt Lake City in 1875), and this seems to be around the same time he was in Washington appealing for statehood.

So maybe the dream that troubled Mrs. Smith's mind, and the dream that Mrs. Rose related were caused by fear (or even the devil)?

Does anyone know who Mrs. Rose was?

Edited January 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

Here's another one (but not the one I was looking for.)

-- Sep 26, 1858

[Apostle Wilford Woodruff Journal] ...The following Dream was related which President Young [had] on Friday night Sept 24, 1858: He dreamed that 4 men came into his room and tried to get in. He tried to shoot them with his pistol but Could not get it off. He then drew a Bowie knife but found it to be a Carving knife with a saw on one side. At the same time Mr Clarkson reached over his shoulder & drew a large Bowie knife from between his shoulders & attempted to kill Presidet Young who said to him you may think that you are going to do sumthing but I will show you. He then threw his saw knife at Clarkson & Just as it was about to enter his body Brigham Young reached out his hand Caught it so that it did not hurt him saying at the same time you now see what I Can do. Clarkson said I see that my life is in your power. At the same time he plunged his knife into his own breast & split it open then handed the handle of the knife all Bloody to B. Young & walked a short distance & fell dead.... (1)

http://lds-church-hi...arch?q=Clarkson

Does anyone know who this mr. Clarkson was?

Edited January 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

I've been wondering whether some dreams are of the devil, and it would appear Wilford Woodruff and William Clayton thought so.

While I haven't found any more about the nightmare mentioned in the OP, I did find this.

-- Dec 1, 1841

[Apostle Wilford Woodruff Journal] Dec 1st A plesent day. I spent a part of the day in writing. I wrote a letter to L. R. Foster 13 Oliver st NY & requested him to Send me some money.

After retiring to rest at night I was Called upon by Brother Meeks to go with him to lay hands upon his wife who was possessed with a devil. I went with him to his house & found his wife foaming in great agony. I lade hands upon her & rebuked the devil & he came out of her & she soon fell asleep & I returned home & If I had judged from outward appearances I should have thought the devil followed me home & entered into our Cat for she made the most awful noise through the night I ever herd. I also had a disagreeable dream <[between?] Joseph and myself> which I considerd to be from the devil. I met in council with the Twelve in evening. (2)

http://lds-church-hi... from the devil

And this.

-- Dec 13, 1852. Monday.

[William Clayton Journal] ...The three Sheffield brethren are determined to go to the Valley in the spring, but Brother Doolittle has not much faith in going. He told me that the Lord had shown him in a dream that he need not go to the Valley; he was better here &c. I told him it was a trick of the Devil to try to destroy him, and advised him by all means to go to the Valley as soon as possible. At 2 o'clock we retired to bed much fatigued. (2)

http://lds-church-hi...ck of the devil

Edited January 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[rpn]

Haven't any of you who are posting had any really wild dreams that didn't pertain to anything at all in your life and certainly didn't portend anything?

[inquiringmind]

Haven't any of you who are posting had any really wild dreams that didn't pertain to anything at all in your life and certainly didn't portend anything?

That's actually one of the things that got me interested in this.

I know that Brigham Young, and Wilford Woodruff, and a lot of other early latter day saints kept journals, and I was wondering if any of them recorded any dreams that they recognized as meaningless.

[Saints Alive]

Neurologically speaking dreams are just your brains way of processing new and old thoughts and memories. I wonder what was on BYs mind?

[The Nehor]

Haven't any of you who are posting had any really wild dreams that didn't pertain to anything at all in your life and certainly didn't portend anything?

I had a dream where I was the AntiChrist and ascended to a throne of bones drenched in blood while black-robed cultists praised me. I do not think it had any meaning. The next night I dreamed I was an apostle.

[Saints Alive]

I had a dream where I was the AntiChrist and ascended to a throne of bones drenched in blood while black-robed cultists praised me. I do not think it had any meaning. The next night I dreamed I was an apostle.

In the words of Freud, "interesting"

[The Nehor]

In the words of Freud, "interesting"

Sometimes a bloody throne of bones is just a bloody throne of bones. Like cigars.

[inquiringmind]

I had a dream where I was the AntiChrist and ascended to a throne of bones drenched in blood while black-robed cultists praised me. I do not think it had any meaning. The next night I dreamed I was an apostle.

How disturbing was the first dream?

Did you really have such a dream?

And how did you get through the next day?

[The Nehor]

How disturbing was the first dream?

Did you really have such a dream?

And how did you get through the next day?

Not very disturbing at the time. Slept peacefully through it. Thought it was weird when I woke up.

Yep, did have the dream.

Got through just fine other then a "Huh......that was odd"

I have vivid and strange dreams all the time. Last night I dreamed I was in charge of a cabal of wizards and was trying to get them to organize and stop killing each other. They were all trying to steal each others eldritch tomes of lore you understand. But, they were ignoring the threat of Cthulhu and we need to unite to strengthen the elder signs keeping him asleep in Ry'leh.

[blackstrap]

You been eating a lot of spicy Mexican food lately,Nehor ?

[The Nehor]

You been eating a lot of spicy Mexican food lately,Nehor ?

Not really. I was lazy and had Taco Bell last night. I keep putting off grocery shopping.

[Scott Lloyd]

I read about a nightmare Brigham Young supposedly had, where he saw someone shoot himself and then hand him the gun.

I don't know whether this has any veracity, but if it does, I can suggest a possible interpretation.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was perpetrated by militia officers and men who were Church members acting without authorization. Brigham Young and the Church collectively have been and continue to be unjustly blamed for their deeds.

[Saints Alive]

I don't know whether this has any veracity, but if it does, I can suggest a possible interpretation.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was perpetrated by militia officers and men who were Church members acting without authorization. Brigham Young and the Church collectively have been and continue to be unjustly blamed for their deeds.

Didnt someone commit suacide over the MMM, or am I making that up?

[Scott Lloyd]

Didnt someone commit suacide over the MMM, or am I making that up?

That may have happened. I think the interpretation applies in any case, because the perpetrators pretty much ruined themselves through their own actions.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[inquiringmind]

I've been wondering whether some dreams are of the devil, and it would appear Wilford Woodruff and William Clayton thought so.

While I haven't found any more about the nightmare mentioned in the OP, I did find this.

-- Dec 1, 1841

[Apostle Wilford Woodruff Journal] Dec 1st A plesent day. I spent a part of the day in writing. I wrote a letter to L. R. Foster 13 Oliver st NY & requested him to Send me some money.

After retiring to rest at night I was Called upon by Brother Meeks to go with him to lay hands upon his wife who was possessed with a devil. I went with him to his house & found his wife foaming in great agony. I lade hands upon her & rebuked the devil & he came out of her & she soon fell asleep & I returned home & If I had judged from outward appearances I should have thought the devil followed me home & entered into our Cat for she made the most awful noise through the night I ever herd. I also had a disagreeable dream <[between?] Joseph and myself> which I considerd to be from the devil. I met in council with the Twelve in evening. (2)

http://lds-church-hi... from the devil

And this.

-- Dec 13, 1852. Monday.

[William Clayton Journal] ...The three Sheffield brethren are determined to go to the Valley in the spring, but Brother Doolittle has not much faith in going. He told me that the Lord had shown him in a dream that he need not go to the Valley; he was better here &c. I told him it was a trick of the Devil to try to destroy him, and advised him by all means to go to the Valley as soon as possible. At 2 o'clock we retired to bed much fatigued. (2)

http://lds-church-hi...ck of the devil

Wilford Woodruff thought an unpleasant dream he had involving himself and the late Prophet Joseph Smith was caused by the devil, and William Clayton thought a Mr. Doolitle had been influenced by the devil in his sleep, but I haven't been able to find out any more about Brigham's nightmare (mentioned in the OP), or what he thought of it's origin (or what he thought of the origin of a couple of other strange dreams he had.)

What I have found is a statement I don't understand.

There is a great variety of temperaments, many of whom, it seems, cannot see and understand the revelations of God; and if their eyes were opened to see the heaven of heavens, as soon as they would be closed again, they would say, “I guess I have been dreaming;” when there is no other spirit of sensibility than the Spirit of God.

http://jod.mrm.org/11/282

Does anyone know what he meant by "there is no other spirit of sensibility than the Spirit of God"?

Could he have meant that all dreams, all visions, all thoughts and sensations are of God (and that Woodruff and Clayton were wrong)?

Looking up "sensibility" in Webster's 1828 dictionary didn't help me much here.

Susceptibility of impressions; the capacity for feeling or perceiving the impressions of external objects; applied to the animal bodies; as when we say, a frozen limb has lost its sensibility.

http://sorabji.com/1...ensibility.html

P.S. He didn't say anything about bad dreams here, but what he did say doesn't seem to tie in with the idea that all dreams, thoughts, visions, and sensations are of God.

I suppose you are ready to ask brother Brigham if he thinks the power of the devil could make the vase dance. Yes, and could take it up and carry it outdoors, just as easy as to turn up a table and move it here and there, or to cause a rap, rap, rap, or to bake and pass around pancakes, or to get hold of a person's hand, and make him write in every style you can think of, imitating George Washington's, Benjamin Franklin's, Joseph Smith's, and others' autographs. Can you tell whether that is by the power of God or by the power of the devil? No, unless you have the revelations of Jesus Christ.

http://scriptures.by...?vol=03&disc=21

I had a dream where I was the AntiChrist and ascended to a throne of bones drenched in blood while black-robed cultists praised me. I do not think it had any meaning. The next night I dreamed I was an apostle.

If it were sent by God it would have to have some kind of meaning (like maybe a warning or reproof of some kind), but if it was sent by the devil it would just be an attempt to get you to despair of your own Salvation (as I remember the book of Revelation, things don't turn out too good for the a C in the end.)

But what I'm interested in here is whether the devil can cause bad, confusing, or distracting dreams (and/or whether they can come from our own minds), and whether any really heavyweight LDS authorities ever said anything on the subject.

Edited January 12, 2013 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

I had a dream where I was the AntiChrist and ascended to a throne of bones drenched in blood while black-robed cultists praised me. I do not think it had any meaning. The next night I dreamed I was an apostle.

If you had more than one dream that you were the a C, would that mean that you really were doomed?

And if you had more than one dream that you were gonna be an Apostle, would that mean you really were gonna be?

Is that what I've heard called the law of two witnesses (or the law of the second witness) means?

Is that what 2 Cor. 13:1 is saying?

Edited January 12, 2013 by inquiringmind

[The Nehor]

If you had more than one dream that you were the a C, would that mean that you really were doomed?

And if you had more than one dream that you were gonna be an Apostle, would that mean you really were gonna be?

Is that what I've heard called the law of two witnesses (or the law of the second witness) means?

Is that what 2 Cor. 13:1 is saying?

I hope not. I have had two dreams where I joined StarFleet. I see little chance that will happen.

[inquiringmind]

I came upon this on another forum.

This is an area that I have wondered about.

Sometimes I have dreams which seem to match Richard G Scott's description of a subtle awakening, and yet some of them are so disturbing that I have to pray continuously for hours for comfort.

Such was a dream I recently had. Neither my mind nor my heart can accept the events depicted as revelatory, because the events say this: "YOU ARE DAMNED!"

...I've had horrible dreams in the past which were not based on monsters or menaces and they go like this:

I'm stuck on a hopeless eternal task, maybe a math problem with 1000 1000 digit numbers and I keep losing my place so I have to start over. Or, I am walking home, and when I get there, I am somehow sent back to the start to try again. I try maybe 5-6 times before panic fully really starts to take hold. The loop goes faster and faster, I've failed millions of times, and images of me inside my tomb begin to flicker along with the loop, there's no way out of the grave. I feel dirt pressing around me, somehow feeling smooth and rough at the same time, my body can't process the feelings right. At this point I am in so frantic that perhaps I begin to wake-but the feelings don't go away. My mind is raging, maddening sensations are still racing all over my skin; anything I hear is like a truck hitting my head. Moving is very difficult and I have to concentrate really hard to move properly. Each move feels violent and jerky, and causes me terrible anguish (but not pain).

The poster was LDS, and he had more than one of these hopeless dreams.

Is it possible such dreams come from the devil?

And is that possible even when there are two or more?

Or does the law of second witness dictate that two such dreams must be from God?

Is 2 Cor. 13:1 saying that if you have two dreams about going to hell, you're doomed?

(And is it saying that if you have two dreams about being an Apostle, you might as well pack your bags and get use to living in Salt Lake City now?)

Edited January 12, 2013 by inquiringmind