pogi Posted December 20, 2012 Posted December 20, 2012 The question you might want to answer is - what was the fruit? The scriptures refer to the tree of knowledge as the olive tree, so the fruit was olives.Where in scripture does it say this, just curious?
mathonihah Posted December 20, 2012 Posted December 20, 2012 No contradiction. They had a choice - stay in the garden and partake of the fruit, or leave the garden and have children. They could not eat of the fruit of knowledge and stay in the garden. My children follow strict chastity rules while at home. They are taught to grow up and have children of their own, but they cannot do this until they partake of the figurative tree of knowledge which is a coming of age to become adults. Once they are adults, they must partake of the tree, leave the safety and security of my home, and start on their own.The contradiction was in the commandments, not in the choice—assuming that that LSD teaching on the subject is correct.
Maidservant Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 I think you are taking the story way too literally in my opinion. The trees are symbols, and are intrinsic to the plan of salvation. They needed to partake of the fruit. The question you might want to answer is - what was the fruit? The scriptures refer to the tree of knowledge as the olive tree, so the fruit was olives. Eating the olive is symbolic of receiving the gift of the Ghost. The fruit of the tree of life was white and delight some and this is manifested in the mosaic law as the white loaves held in the holy of holys, or the gift of eternal life.They had top pass over the law of eternal life and enter into mortality to begin the plan of salvation. Adam fell (entered into mortality) so that man might be.WOW actually. Olives . . . boy, this opens up a whole nother path of symbolism, some of which you've already mentioned here.Olives are PRESSED for their oil. SO much olive symbolism in Christ and the gospel, the associations are endless. Thank you!
Rob Osborn Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Not according to others:http://www.lds.org/g...hen-us?lang=engI was going to collect more quotes supporting this, but lds.org is now down for maintenance so no go.Also from lds.org: https://www.lds.org/...vation?lang=engIt would seem according to the above that the only way of progression was to break the commandment not to eat.Adam and Eve sinned. They could only sin if they knew right from wrong beforehand.
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) They could only sin if they knew right from wrong beforehand.So the apostles and prophets and scriptures are wrong in declaring Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, not knowing right from wrong prior to partaking of the tree? Edited December 21, 2012 by calmoriah
volgadon Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Where does it do this? I thought this was apocryphal (though I think it is the best choice). Certainly the depiction in the temple doesn't look anything like olives.There have been so many different identifications over the years. My favourite is the medieval idea that the fruit was bananas. 1
Rob Osborn Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 So the apostles and prophets and scriptures are wrong in declaring Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, not knowing right from wrong prior to partaking of the tree?Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying Fathers commands. They werent blind, they "knew" they disobeyed. They chose the wrong.
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 My favourite is the medieval idea that the fruit was bananas.Seriously. I am rather afraid to ask why....
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying Fathers commands. They werent blind, they "knew" they disobeyed. They chose the wrong.That ignores my question. Are the apostles and prophets and scriptures that say otherwise, that they did not know right from wrong before choosing the tree of good and evil and it was the partaking of the fruit that gave them that ability wrong?
mathonihah Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) So the apostles and prophets and scriptures are wrong in declaring Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, not knowing right from wrong prior to partaking of the tree?So God was wrong to forgive Adam his transgression in the Garden of Eden?"And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden." (Moses 6:53)Or when he punished him in the first place?"Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed." (D&C 29:41)How do you forgive someone who hasn't done anything wrong? Edited December 21, 2012 by mathonihah
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) I don't believe I stated that they didn't do wrong, I said the prophets, the apostles and the scriptures teach they didn't know right from wrong because they were in a state of innocence.Young, even very young kids do wrong all the time, but they don't know the difference between right and wrong yet and thus are defined as accountable though they may have to suffer the natural consequences of their choices (such as a burned hand for touching a hot stove). Edited December 21, 2012 by calmoriah
volgadon Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Seriously. I am rather afraid to ask why....Interestingly enough, doesn't seem to have been Freudian. From what I've been able to tell, the reason was that bananas were a new fruit in late antiquity, and a very sweet fruit to boot. Later Christians wrote of the cross form appearing in the fruit, so that served as proof found in nature of the divinity of Jesus. 1
Rob Osborn Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 That ignores my question. Are the apostles and prophets and scriptures that say otherwise, that they did not know right from wrong before choosing the tree of good and evil and it was the partaking of the fruit that gave them that ability wrong?What scriptures state that Adam and Eve didnt know right from wrong before eating the fruit?
mathonihah Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 How could they have known right from wrong prior to that partaking. Yes, God had told them not to do something, but understanding that just because someone doesn't want you to do something means that doing that something is wrong, even if that someone is God, doesn't come to a person automatically. It takes learning of what is good and what is not first.I think the problem here is that we don't know what that fruit exactly was, and how it affected their ability to know right and wrong, and whether that means that they had absolutely no moral agency before. I think it is clear that they had some moral agency and responsibility for their actions, otherwise their action could not be regarded as a sin (or transgression if you like, which I consider to be the same thing). They would not be liable to a punishment, which is what they received.
mathonihah Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) I don't believe I stated that they didn't do wrong, I said the prophets, the apostles and the scriptures teach they didn't know right from wrong because they were in a state of innocence.Then you have to find an answer to the question of how they could do wrong that is liable to punishment without knowing wrong. Young, even very young kids do wrong all the time, but they don't know the difference between right and wrong yet and thus are defined as accountable though they may have to suffer the natural consequences of their choices (such as a burned hand for touching a hot stove).Two answers to that: firstly, the scriptures teach that little children fall as a consequence of the sin of Adam (Mosiah 3:16). Secondly, little children are not held accountable for whatever wrong they do, and consequently not "punished" for the wrong they do. Getting burned for touching a hot stove doesn't quote describe the situation. Adam and Eve were punished for their disobedience. They didn't just slip and sall off a cliff. That is why they also had to be forgiven. Edited December 21, 2012 by mathonihah
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Getting burned for touching a hot stove doesn't quote describe the situation. It does if the natural consequences of eating the fruit or partaking of whatever the fruit stands for is the "punishment" they were given.
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) What scriptures state that Adam and Eve didnt know right from wrong before eating the fruit?Lehi states, "And [Adam and Eve] would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence," innocence has been defined by the propehts, etc. as not being accountable, not knowing good from evil, not knowing right from wrong.In Moses, Eve states, "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient“ (Moses 5:10-11)" If they didn't know "good and evil" how would they have known right and wrong?Also Alma 29: 5 Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience.The tree gave the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve did not know good and evil or right and wrong and therefore were blameless even though they had to suffer the natural (the laws that God has placed on the earth as well as throughout the universe as well as any eternal law) consequences of their actions.Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Edited December 21, 2012 by calmoriah
mathonihah Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 It does if the natural consequences of eating the fruit or partaking of whatever the fruit stands for is the "punishment" they were given.It wasn't a "natural consequence," otherwise they would not need to be "forgiven". It was punishment for disobedience. When was the last time you were forgiven for touching a hot stove?
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 It wasn't a "natural consequence," otherwise they would not need to be "forgiven". It was punishment for disobedience. When was the last time you were forgiven for touching a hot stove?A child is a natural consequence of out of wedlock sexual intercourse....those involved in such still have to be forgiven even if they become parents, perhaps even more so. Not praying constantly has the natural consequence of creating a greater distance between us and the Lord, we need to be forgiven of refusing or forgetting to pray.Not all things that have natural consequences separate us from God, those that do must be forgiven.
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Explaining AgencyThe scriptures make it clear that in order for moral agency to exist, four things are essential: laws, opposites, knowledge, and freedom to choose. (The entire second chapter of 2 Nephi explains the relationships of these four elements. [2 Ne. 2])Laws. Before agency can be used, there must be certain rules or commandments given for us to follow. This is one reason our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ have given us laws. Obeying these laws brings certain blessings; disobeying them results in negative consequences. (See D&C 130:20–21.)Opposites. As the prophet Lehi taught, agency cannot exist unless there are choices to be made between opposites. (See 2 Ne. 2:11.) Though not every choice we make in life is necessarily between right and wrong, we ultimately have to make the choice between good and evil. There are opposing forces that entice us to choose their way, but we make the decision.Knowledge. In order to make wise choices, we must have a knowledge of what the choices are and of the consequences that attend them. Our ability to choose well improves as we learn which consequences come with which choices.https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/10/teaching-children-to-use-agency-wisely?lang=engNote "negative consequences", not "punishment".
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (3-4) Genesis 3:3. Adam and Eve Were Not Mortal in the Garden and Did Not Fully Comprehend Good and Evil“Adam’s status before the fall was:“1. He was not subject to death.“2. He was in the presence of God. …“3. He had no posterity.“4. He was without knowledge of good and evil.He had knowledge, of course. He could speak. He could converse. There were many things he could be taught and was taught; but under the conditions in which he was living at that time it was impossible for him to visualize or understand the power of good and evil. He did not know what pain was. He did not know what sorrow was; and a thousand other things that have come to us in this life that Adam did not know in the Garden of Eden and could not understand and would not have known had he remained there. That was his status before the fall.” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:107–8.)https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-3?lang=engAlso:Genesis 3:16–19. Were Adam and Eve “Punished” for Their Transgression?“We can picture the plight of Adam and Eve. They had been condemned to sorrows, woes, troubles, and labor and they were cast out from the presence of God, and death had been declared to be their fate. A pathetic picture, indeed. But now a most important thing happened. Adam and Eve had explained to them the gospel of Jesus Christ. What would be their reaction? When the Lord explained this to them, that a redemption should come through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father, Adam exclaimed: ‘Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh shall I see God.’ (Moses 5:10.)“And what was the response of Eve, his wife? She ‘heard all of these things, and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and … eternal life.’ (Ibid., 5:11.)“There is the key to the question of evil. If we cannot be good, except as we resist and overcome evil, then evil must be present to be resisted.“So this earth life is set up according to true principles, and these conditions that followed the transgression were not, in the usual sense, penalties that were inflicted upon us. All these that I have named to you that seem to be sad inflictions of punishment, sorrow, and trouble are in the end not that. They are blessings. We have attained a knowledge of good and evil, the power to prize the sweet, to become agents unto ourselves, the power to obtain redemption and eternal life. These things had their origin in this transgression. The Lord has set the earth up so we have to labor if we are going to live, which preserves us from the curse of idleness and indolence; and though the Lord condemns us to death—mortal death—it is one of the greatest blessings that comes to us here because it is the doorway to immortality, and we can never attain immortality without dying.” (George Q. Morris, in Conference Report, Apr. 1958, p. 39.)
Glenn101 Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 They knew enough to know that they were commanded not to, and that it was wrong to break God's commandment. That made breaking it a sin / transgression.How can someone know something is wrong if they do not know right from wrong????Glenn
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) President Joseph Fielding Smith has also given his testimony about the blessings of the Fall:“When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. I do not know that it can truthfully be considered even as a punishment in disguise. …http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=664ea41f6cc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRDCONDITIONS BEFORE PARTAKING OF THE FRUITThey could act for themselves (2 Nephi 2:15–16), but they did not do good “for they knew no sin” (2 Nephi 2:23).They did not have to till the ground in order for food to grow in the garden (2 Nephi 2:19; see also Moses 2:29).They knew no misery or joy (2 Nephi 2:23).They would have remained “in the same state … forever, and had no end” (2 Nephi 2:22).OPPOSITION EXPERIENCED AFTER PARTAKING OF THE FRUITThey could do good, and they could also commit sin (2 Nephi 2:23). They were commanded to repent of their sins (2 Nephi 2:21).They had to work to obtain food (2 Nephi 2:19).They experienced misery and joy (2 Nephi 2:23).They became fallen and mortal—subject to physical death (2 Nephi 2:22; see also Moses 6:48).http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=3ea0cb7a29c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=5158f4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD Edited December 21, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) President Joseph Fielding Smith showed how the book of Moseshelps us understand why the Lord commanded Adam to not partake of the fruit: “Just why the Lord would say to Adam that he forbade him to partake of the fruit of that tree is not made clear in the Bible account, but in the original as it comes to us in the Book of Moses it is made definitely clear. It is that the Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so” http://www.lds.org/m...hi-1-3?lang=eng“… The Fall of Adam (and Eve) constituted the mortal creation and brought about the required changes in their bodies, including the circulation of blood and other modifications as well. They were now able to have children. They and their posterity also became subject to injury, disease, and death” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1996, 44–45; or Ensign, Nov. 1996, 33).President Brigham Young (1801–77) and President Joseph Fielding Smith help us understand that the Fall of Adam was part of our Heavenly Father’s plan:“Did they [Adam and Eve] come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 103).“Adam did only what he had to do. He partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world. …“… If it hadn’t been for Adam, I wouldn’t be here; you wouldn’t be here; we would be waiting in the heavens as spirits” (Joseph Fielding Smith, in Conference Report, Oct. 1967, 121–22). Edited December 21, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) “Our first parents are entitled to our deepest gratitude for their legacy to posterity—the means of winning title to glory, exaltation, and eternal lives. But for the opportunity thus given, the spirits of God’s offspring would have remained forever in a state of innocent childhood, sinless through no effort of their own; negatively saved, not from sin, but from the opportunity of meeting sin; incapable of winning the honors of victory because prevented from taking part in the conflict. As it is, they are heirs to the birthright of Adam’s descendants—mortality, with its immeasurable possibilities and its God-given freedom of action. From Father Adam we have inherited all the ills to which flesh is heir; but such are necessarily incident to a knowledge of good and evil, by the proper use of which knowledge man may become even as the gods.” (Talmage, p. 70.)http://www.lds.org/e...mption?lang=engOur Father in Heaven knew Adam and Eve would fall. In fact, the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that Adam “was made to open the way of the world” (Teachings, 12). Lehi tells us, “Adam fell that man might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:25). Modern scripture makes it clear that it was the will of the Father, as part of his plan, that Adam and Eve transgress and thus be moved out of Eden. 2 Satan thus unwittingly furthered the plan, “for he knew not the mind of God” (Moses 4:6)....These declarations indicate that Adam and Eve saw their transgression in its proper and true perspective. They understood the necessity of the Fall and praised God for his great plan of happiness. No sorrow, regret, or shame is evident in these statements.http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/what-modern-revelation-teaches-about-adam?lang=eng Edited December 21, 2012 by calmoriah
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