Mysticism And Mormon Spirituality

[volgadon]

Because she already knew that the tree would give her knowledge of good and evil, and thus be like the God's. He was simply pointing out the tempting portions of her knowledge about the fruit to get her to eat it. What the devil said was as obvious as saying the sky is blue.

I'd be glad for you to show me where in Genesis the information "ye shall be as gods," appears before 3:5. This new information is far more significant than finding out that the sky is blue (ask MFB why it is a silly statement).

I never said "different" I said "higher", that is the limiting factor.

The wiki portion you quoted doesn't say "higher," it spoke of aspects of reality, etc., "beyond normal human perception." MFB has raised some valid points.

Is that my problem or your problem?

As I don't accept your theory, yours.

Not exactly, if someone experiences the light of Christ or the Holy Ghost, then their experience is true. Experiencing light, is something more than seeing light with our natural eyes. It is seeing light with our spiritual eyes, which is the gateway to our hearts. "Seeing, they see not...neither do they understand." Seeing, in the sense that you speak of, is not believing. We all see light, that does not qualify us as mystics.

I thought it would have been obvious from context that I wasn't discussing our usual means of sight.

I could never prove to anybody that my own experience is true. I would therefore never attempt to prove that another persons experience is true or counterfeit. God does the proving, not me.

By positing a universal mystical experience, which separates "false" experiences from mysticism, along the lines of LDS teachings, you've more or less committed yourself to either sticking to vague generalisations, or showing how we can know that each description you discuss is true. Of course, you could also ditch the idea of counterfeits, but that comes with its own troubles.

I don't know much about you volgadon. Help me understand where you are coming from. Are you of the Jewish faith?

I am LDS, but my grandparents were Jewish, and I'm Israeli.

[Nathair/|\]

Holy cow? I was under the impression that you were LDS. Hindu is it?

The same way you know if anything is true.

I concede, I don't want to argue about what consciousness is. It is impossible to specify what it is, or what it does. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.

I wasn't aware that those were mutually exclusive.

[pogi]

Can I say spiritual consciousness? I think you all know what i am talking about, but your physical minds are taking place of your spiritual minds.

Edited November 19, 2012 by pogi

[volgadon]

I wasn't aware that those were mutually exclusive.

From Goodness Gracious Me:

[Rings on a door]

The Guru Maharishi Yogi: Hello, do you want to be a Hindu?

Woman: Yes, I have always wanted to become a Hindu.

The Guru Maharishi Yogi: Well, you can't! Have a nice day!

[pogi]

As I don't accept your theory, yours.

My theory is not my problem, it appears to be yours.

Do you believe in mystic experience?

[volgadon]

My theory is not my problem, it appears to be yours.

If you can't make your theory stick, that really isn't my problem.

Do you believe in mystic experience?

I do. Do I believe it is the same experience for everyone? No. I experience God as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with much Jewish and Russian influence as well.

I agree that God influences and reaches out to his children, but where I disagree is that this somehow boils down to a neat, universal category of mysticism.

[mfbukowski]

All things were spiritual before they were medical.

Maybe you are right but then we don't think disease is caused by humours any more.

I suppose it's just those pesky language games acting up again.

[mfbukowski]

By positing a universal mystical experience, which separates "false" experiences from mysticism, along the lines of LDS teachings, you've more or less committed yourself to either sticking to vague generalisations, or showing how we can know that each description you discuss is true. Of course, you could also ditch the idea of counterfeits, but that comes with its own troubles.

Yep that's exactly the problem. He's asserted his position as "true" without explaining why or how it is or how we could even know either.

[volgadon]

If you take that tack, you have some serious defining to do according to Timothy Leary et al.

It is very useful for telling you what not to do again, I can tell you that much.

Besides, what qualifies as "altered"? Being under the influence of love or mysticism? I mean if you want to talk about chemicals here then of course what qualifies as a "chemical" gets dicey real fast.

You might as well try to define "natural food".

http://walkstar.blogspot.com/2010/10/your-love-is-my-drug.html

[pogi]

If you take that tack, you have some serious defining to do according to Timothy Leary et al.

It is very useful for telling you what not to do again, I can tell you that much.

Besides, what qualifies as "altered"? Being under the influence of love or mysticism? I mean if you want to talk about chemicals here then of course what qualifies as a "chemical" gets dicey real fast.

You might as well try to define "natural food".

You are all LDS. Lets stop playing with words. You know what I am taking about when I say spiritual experience. You know the source. You know what it feels like. We are not the only ones who experience it. That is all that I am saying. I find it hard for anyone to claim that they are LDS and not believe that.

[pogi]

If you can't make your theory stick, that really isn't my problem.

Said the Pharisee to Christ.

[mfbukowski]

I do. Do I believe it is the same experience for everyone? No. I experience God as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with much Jewish and Russian influence as well.

In my heart of hearts, God is not "God", he is Boga. That is Polish.

That is unquestionably the most intimate loving term I know for God and it always will be because it was my first understanding of Him. You can't change that any more than you can change the first language you learned.

[mfbukowski]

Said the Pharisee to Christ.

Oh, so now you are Christ and we are persecuting you.

OK I am outa here

[mfbukowski]

http://walkstar.blog...is-my-drug.html

Exactly.

But don't ask me how I know that.

[pogi]

Oh, so now you are Christ and we are persecuting you.

OK I am outa here

I didn't mean that in a self-righteous way, nor am I claiming persecution.

I was making the point that simply because you don't get my point, that doesn't make it wrong. If I am right, that is not my problem.

Edited November 19, 2012 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Lets stop playing with words.

In other words, stop using them. I think that can be arranged.

[mfbukowski]

I didn't mean that in a self-righteous way, nor am I claiming persecution.

I was making the point that simply because you don't get my point, that doesn't make it wrong. If I am right, that is not my problem.

No it doesn't mean you are "wrong". It just means there's nothing more to talk about. No communication indicates, uh, that communication is not happening and further attempts are useless.

On to real life. You know- video games or something like that.

Edited November 19, 2012 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

In my heart of hearts, God is not "God", he is Boga. That is Polish.

That is unquestionably the most intimate loving term I know for God and it always will be because it was my first understanding of Him. You can't change that any more than you can change the first language you learned.

That's great. I don't care what you call him.

[pogi]

In other words, stop using them. I think that can be arranged.

There you go again, playing with words. That's really all you are going to take out of that post to discuss. You're playing games here. I'm trying to take you seriously, please offer me the same respect.

[volgadon]

Said the Pharisee to Christ.

Really, where?

At least when I propose a theory, I try to be responsible for making it hold together.

[pogi]

I do. Do I believe it is the same experience for everyone? No. I experience God as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with much Jewish and Russian influence as well.

I agree that God influences and reaches out to his children, but where I disagree is that this somehow boils down to a neat, universal category of mysticism.

The fruits of the spirit will always be the fruits of the spirit, no matter what culture you are born into. We cannot be one with him without experiencing the fruits the way he experiences the fruits.

[Calm]

Said the Pharisee to Christ.

Not conducive to civil dialogue....

[Calm]

but your physical minds are taking place of your spiritual minds.

Do you really believe we have more than one mind?

[volgadon]

Do you really believe we have more than one mind?

I think he was addressing this to multiple individuals.

[volgadon]

Yep that's exactly the problem. He's asserted his position as "true" without explaining why or how it is or how we could even know either.

He also stated that mystics misinterpret their experiences.