Mysticism And Mormon Spirituality

[pogi]

What I can do, beyond historical enquiry, is attempt to look at religious traditions from the lens of the adherents, as much as possible. Letting them speak for themselves, a radical concept.

I don't think that is so radical. I try to do the same, and I find that I relate to other's mystical experiences more often than not. Even if we use different words to describe it.

[volgadon]

Do you think that a "state of consciousness" induced by the devil and one induced by God are so indistinguishable that one can never tell them apart?

No, of course not. Not everyone, though, can distinguish them all the time, every time. Altered states of consciousness are not only induced by God.

[harfad]

No, of course not. Not everyone, though, can distinguish them all the time, every time. Altered states of consciousness are not only induced by God.

Therefore when Mysticism is defined as a state consciousness induced by the Divine, that means that one induced by the devil is not part of the conversation. Do you therefore accept that your link was inappropriate and irrelevant to the conversation?

[volgadon]

Therefore when Mysticism is defined as a state consciousness induced by the Divine, that means that one induced by the devil is not part of the conversation. Do you therefore accept that your link was inappropriate and irrelevant to the conversation?

No, absolutely not. Pogi's argument is incredibly circular and doesn't tell us how we know if a description of a mystic experience is what he'd consider a "true" mystic experience, or not. I pointed out that if we are going to take the faith path, we must also realise that Joseph Smith taught that counterfeits exist and can be rather convincing.

I don't take well to your juvenile browbeating and frequent misreadings of my posts, either.

Edited November 19, 2012 by volgadon

[pogi]

Yet those individuals could not tell for themselves. To them, it appeared right. Are you disputing that a revelation from or visitation by the Devil would be a state of consciousness, level of being, or aspect of reality beyond normal human perception?

Yes, I am disputing it. False spirits never lead us into aspects of reality. The true Spirit shows us things as they are (reality), false spirits show us things as they are not. Consciousness by definition is a state of being awake and aware of reality. That is something that a false spirit cannot do. We are in a state of deception not consciousness and reality.

[harfad]

No, absolutely not. Pogi's argument is incredibly circular and doesn't tell us how we know if a description of a mystic experience is what he'd consider a "true" mystic experience, or not. I pointed out that if we are going to take the faith path, we must also really that Joseph Smith taught that counterfeits exist and can be rather convincing.

I don't take well to your juvenile browbeating and frequent misreadings of my posts, either.

Sometimes there comes a point where continuing a discussion with someone is no longer productive. I think that our conversation has already reached that point. Have a nice day.

[volgadon]

Yes, I am disputing it. False spirits never lead us into aspects of reality. The true Spirit shows us things as they are (reality), false spirits show us things as they are not. Consciousness by definition is a state of being awake and aware of reality. That is something that a false spirit cannot do. We are in a state of deception not consciousness and reality.

"Ye shall be as the gods" was a false statement? The Devil can certainly present true aspects of reality, along with a lot of deception. That is the whole point of counterfeit. How do you, going by a written description, decide which experience is true and which isn't?

Sometimes there comes a point where continuing a discussion with someone is no longer productive. I think that our conversation has already reached that point. Have a nice day.

True, yet despite there being dozens of more productive and even interesting ways to spend time, people still respond to you. Another lesson learned, I guess. Please spare me the fake smiles and sentiments. Once you feel that you can actually discuss historical aspects such as your debukned evolutionary theory of religion in specific details rather than vague and contradictory pronouncements, feel free to let me know.

[pogi]

No, absolutely not. Pogi's argument is incredibly circular and doesn't tell us how we know if a description of a mystic experience is what he'd consider a "true" mystic experience, or not.

My argument is not circular, I have never attempted to describe how we can know. I have simply stated what mysticism is from a Mormon (my) perspective. How we can know if an experience is a truly mystic experience or not is another story. We can get into that if you want. I wasn't aware that we were there already.

[volgadon]

My argument is not circular, I have never attempted to describe how we can know. I have simply stated what mysticism is from a Mormon (my) perspective. How we can know if an experience is a truly mystic experience or not is another story. We can get into that if you want. I wasn't aware that we were there already.

Once you clarified that you were talking of what you termed true mysticism rather than mysticism as a whole, we moved into that territory.

[pogi]

"Ye shall be as the gods" was a false statement? The Devil can certainly present true aspects of reality, along with a lot of deception. That is the whole point of counterfeit. How do you, going by a written description, decide which experience is true and which isn't?

Good point. That was a true statement. However, it did not give Adam any new knowledge or higher consciousness as is a qualifier for a true mystic experience. How would they have become as the Gods? By knowing good and evil. Again, that wasn't really a revelation, the tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil after all. That true statement by the devil did not lead to higher consciousness, etc. The temptation to eat of the fruit led to the fall of mankind into death and darkness. Higher consciousness only came about because of the atonement of Christ as a result of the fall.

[pogi]

That's all for now folks, my wife needs some help.

[volgadon]

Good point. That was a true statement. However, it did not give Adam any new knowledge or higher consciousness as is a qualifier for a true mystic experience. How would they have become as the Gods? By knowing good and evil. Again, that wasn't really a revelation, the tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil after all. That true statement by the devil did not lead to higher consciousness, etc. The temptation to eat of the fruit led to the fall of mankind into death and darkness. Higher consciousness only came about because of the atonement of Christ as a result of the fall.

How did that statement not give Eve any new knowledge? Not, of course, to say that this incident is a mystic one. I'm using it to point out that the Devil can presents true aspects of reality, al the while distorting them.

How does an encounter with the Devil not take place on a different plane of reality?

Your problem comes in when you try to use the gospel to define mysticism. If someone says they saw light, then their experience is true, and they are a mystic. However, if you use the gospel to define it, you must also concede that the Devil can create convincing counterfeits, as illustrated by the link I provided.

You can't point to any eperience as mystic, unless you first establish convincingly that their experience wasn't counterfeit. You can't experience their experience, you only have their descriptions to go by. Since you have already stated that mystics don't understand their own experiences, you don't leave yourself with much room to manuevre.

[volgadon]

That's all for now folks, my wife needs some help.

Good priority! Talk to you later, then.

[pogi]

How did that statement not give Eve any new knowledge?

Because she already knew that the tree would give her knowledge of good and evil, and thus be like the Gods. He was simply pointing out the tempting portions of her knowledge about the fruit to get her to eat it. What the devil said was as obvious as saying the sky is blue.

How does an encounter with the Devil not take place on a different plane of reality?

I never said "different" I said "higher", that is the limiting factor.

Your problem comes in when you try to use the gospel to define mysticism.

Is that my problem or your problem?

If someone says they saw light, then their experience is true, and they are a mystic.

Not exactly, if someone experiences the light of Christ or the Holy Ghost, then their experience is true. Experiencing light, is something more than seeing light with our natural eyes. It is seeing light with our spiritual eyes, which is the gateway to our hearts. "Seeing, they see not...neither do they understand." Seeing, in the sense that you speak of, is not believing. We all see light, that does not qualify us as mystics.

You can't point to any eperience as mystic, unless you first establish convincingly that their experience wasn't counterfeit. You can't experience their experience, you only have their descriptions to go by. Since you have already stated that mystics don't understand their own experiences, you don't leave yourself with much room to manuevre.

I could never prove to anybody that my own experience is true. I would therefore never attempt to prove that another persons experience is true or counterfeit. God does the proving, not me.

I don't know much about you volgadon. Help me understand where you are coming from. Are you of the Jewish faith?

Edited November 19, 2012 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Higher states of consciousness, levels of being, and aspects of reality, beyond human perception can only come from one source - God. These are true mystic experiences by definition.

You gotta drop some acid sometime if you think that.

[mfbukowski]

I don't take well to your juvenile browbeating and frequent misreadings of my posts, either.

Join the club.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, I am disputing it. False spirits never lead us into aspects of reality. The true Spirit shows us things as they are (reality), false spirits show us things as they are not. Consciousness by definition is a state of being awake and aware of reality. That is something that a false spirit cannot do. We are in a state of deception not consciousness and reality.

Holy cow. I just don't know where to start with this. How can anyone know if any of this is even remotely true?

By saying something is true "by definition" all you are doing is admitting you are making a circular argument. And oddly enough I thought there was a difference between dreaming - even lucid dreaming- and being unconscious- but heck what do I know?

And then you have drug experiences which it appears you are not even considering. There are all kinds of causes of hallucinations and illusions which can happen when one is fully awake.

And how aware of "reality" is one in a David Copperfield show? I suppose one cannot be conscious and attend a magic show according to your definition.

[volgadon]

You gotta drop some acid sometime if you think that.

"Scuse me, while I kiss the sky.

[pogi]

Holy cow. I just don't know where to start with this. How can anyone know if any of this is even remotely true?

Holy cow? I was under the impression that you were LDS. Hindu is it?

The same way you know if anything is true.

By saying something is true "by definition" all you are doing is admitting you are making a circular argument. And oddly enough I thought there was a difference between dreaming - even lucid dreaming- and being unconscious- but heck what do I know?

I concede, I don't want to argue about what consciousness is. It is impossible to specify what it is, or what it does. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.

[mfbukowski]

"Scuse me, while I kiss the sky.

"This guy". Tee Hee. Another illusion Uh oh. That makes me unconscious.

Strawberry fields, nothing is real. (That's a town near Tel Aviv I think) I always thought Nothing was a weird name for an Israeli town but I don't know Hebrew.

[mfbukowski]

Holy cow? I was under the impression that you were LDS. Hindu is it?

The same way you know if anything is true.

Dang.

This guy is getting the hang of this.

I concede, I don't want to argue about what consciousness is. It is impossible to specify what it is, or what it does. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.

Now you're talking. That's about the best comment I have seen on this thread yet!

[pogi]

You gotta drop some acid sometime if you think that.

Altered consciousness is not always higher consciousness, or God inspired consciousness. Whatever consciousness is.

Edited November 19, 2012 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

"Consciousness" is a medical term. Once you figure that out, it all becomes a whole lot easier.

[mfbukowski]

Altered consciousness is not always higher consciousness, or useful consciousness.

If you take that tack, you have some serious defining to do according to Timothy Leary et al.

It is very useful for telling you what not to do again, I can tell you that much.

Besides, what qualifies as "altered"? Being under the influence of love or mysticism? I mean if you want to talk about chemicals here then of course what qualifies as a "chemical" gets dicey real fast.

You might as well try to define "natural food".

Edited November 19, 2012 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

"Consciousness" is a medical term. Once you figure that out, it all becomes a whole lot easier.

All things were spiritual before they were medical.