Out Of The Mouths Of Babes

[Tacenda]

Thanks for all of the feedback folks! I don't know about other families, but in ours I know full well that I'm the one that changed things by deciding to leave the church. My decision brought an unstated assumption out into the open (probably very common in the church) - "we were both LDS when we got married, you're obligated you to always remain in the church, no matter what." Implicit in the assumption is the idea that, by leaving the church, I unilaterally altered the nature of the relationship, as if both parties have to agree to a change in beliefs. This view, of course, undermines any missionary work to families, including that of LDS missionaries, unless both spouses agree to convert to the same set of beliefs. Religious beliefs are very subjective and personal. I don't see how they can be - or should be - subject to agreement. It's not like I just decided one day to stop believing in what Joseph Smith had to say. The experience was just like looking through Galileo's telescope. One day I believed in the heliocentric universe. Then I looked through the telescope. "Oh. Uhhh...hmm. I guess the earth really does orbit the sun. Now what?" My wife's view is that I still should have just stuck with the Church of Heliocentrism, since that's what we were when we got married. Never mind the fact that I no longer believe in heliocentrism, nor can I. No amount of evidence can convince me otherwise. Sorry, folks. The earth is round and it orbits the sun. I violated the implicit agreement built into our marriage regarding religion in our home. The assumption is there because my wife, like many Mormons, cannot even remotely conceive that someone could legitimately come to a different conclusion about Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, I looked through the telescope and my world was rocked. I get that my wife takes it personally. That's the reason I try to be sensitive and patient (though I often fail miserably) and go to church with her. She has no desire to go with me to my church. "I have no interest in it, it doesn't mean anything to me," she says. I hate walking out the door alone and she doesn't like seeing me go alone. Sometimes she worries some other woman will run off with me, someone who shares my beliefs. When she mentions that, I just invite her to come - please, come! - I'd rather she was with me and there's no better way to keep her eyes on me. But no, she never comes. "Not interested. It's not for me." So, in the end it's just me that goes to church with her - mainly to preclude the sympathetic comments ("Poor Sister Spammer)" she loathes to hear and to help get the kids there. Plus, she wants here husband there and I don't blame her. That's how it works for us.

I totally get where you're coming from. At present in my own crisis of faith, I still attend church for my family and I don't want to out myself to the ward. I'm trying to believe in the church, but what I now know of it's history etc. I just can't. But it's killing my husband and I don't want to mess up the dynamics. He has some doubts but will always see something in the bible or elsewhere that confirms it's true. I wish that could happen to me. I've longed to try another church just to compare the two, maybe just maybe, it'll be so terrible I'll run back to the LDS way of life, haha. But for now once in a great while, will listen to a sermon from a different faith on the internet. My husband wouldn't step foot in one. He went to several back in the south on his mission and thinks most are a crock. But I do have to give him a little credit, he'll occasionally listen to a sermon on the radio in his truck, where before it was so off putting at first. So that is my life for now. I understand our positions and I understand our spouses positions. I wish I'd never stumbled onto faith shattering info on the internet or read a couple of books that were written by active LDS authors even. I don't understand how I'm unable to keep the faith under these conditions and so many on here continue to, with all the knowledge and then some. But it has been extremely helpful to see how you've dealt with things.

Below is a podcast that might help you and your wife if you care to share it with her.

http://mormonstories...risis-of-faith/

Edited November 5, 2012 by Tacenda

[Yirgacheffe]

And I just don't understand why you can't let a grown man make a decision for himself to do something just because you yourself and some others wouldn't do it. Spammer seems a sensible, intelligent, thoughtful man capable of thinking through his own actions and making useful, responsible and caring decisions. Chances are, from the little he has spoken of his immediate family, his wife is the same way and makes compassionate sacrifices for him, but this is not what he chose to discuss in detail in the thread.

This thread is not about what couples in general need to do save in the vaguest way of working together to figure out what works for their relationships, with spammer and his wife providing one example of how one family chooses to support each other. Another family might choose a different way. As long as it works for the family why should anyone outside that family be concerned?

What is the big deal? If it works for his relationship and he and his wife are good with it, why do you feel the need to disapprove instead of being supportive?

Apparently there is no mutual support.

[3DOP]

Thanks for all of the feedback folks! I don't know about other families, but in ours I know full well that I'm the one that changed things by deciding to leave the church. My decision brought an unstated assumption out into the open (probably very common in the church) - "we were both LDS when we got married, you're obligated you to always remain in the church, no matter what." Implicit in the assumption is the idea that, by leaving the church, I unilaterally altered the nature of the relationship, as if both parties have to agree to a change in beliefs. This view, of course, undermines any missionary work to families, including that of LDS missionaries, unless both spouses agree to convert to the same set of beliefs. Religious beliefs are very subjective and personal. I don't see how they can be - or should be - subject to agreement. It's not like I just decided one day to stop believing in what Joseph Smith had to say. The experience was just like looking through Galileo's telescope. One day I believed in the heliocentric universe. Then I looked through the telescope. "Oh. Uhhh...hmm. I guess the earth really does orbit the sun. Now what?" My wife's view is that I still should have just stuck with the Church of Heliocentrism, since that's what we were when we got married. Never mind the fact that I no longer believe in heliocentrism, nor can I. No amount of evidence can convince me otherwise. Sorry, folks. The earth is round and it orbits the sun. I violated the implicit agreement built into our marriage regarding religion in our home. The assumption is there because my wife, like many Mormons, cannot even remotely conceive that someone could legitimately come to a different conclusion about Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, I looked through the telescope and my world was rocked. I get that my wife takes it personally. That's the reason I try to be sensitive and patient (though I often fail miserably) and go to church with her. She has no desire to go with me to my church. "I have no interest in it, it doesn't mean anything to me," she says. I hate walking out the door alone and she doesn't like seeing me go alone. Sometimes she worries some other woman will run off with me, someone who shares my beliefs. When she mentions that, I just invite her to come - please, come! - I'd rather she was with me and there's no better way to keep her eyes on me. But no, she never comes. "Not interested. It's not for me." So, in the end it's just me that goes to church with her - mainly to preclude the sympathetic comments ("Poor Sister Spammer)" she loathes to hear and to help get the kids there. Plus, she wants here husband there and I don't blame her. That's how it works for us.

Just for the record Spammer...and I'm all for your most important choice...but your beef is not with heliocentrism...which teaches that the earth revolves around the sun as Galileo taught. Your beef, if I understand you, is with geocentrism, which is the idea that the sun revolves around the earth. Almost everybody that is 200 years old or younger believes in heliocentrism. As for me, even though I have seen fewer than 100 years, I have no idea what revolves around what. I do not believe in either one. Call me agnostic about what is not revealed. I am a skeptic regarding those who claim they have proved space stuff. But I believingly recite the Apostles Creed almost everyday, sometimes more than once. No apostasy makes me Catholic. On that, if I ever see you, I will clap hands and praise God. God bless you, Spammer. Keep the faith.

3DOP

Edited November 6, 2012 by 3DOP

[Spammer]

Lol....major doh!!! Geo-, earth-, major brain freeze. Too many simultaneous tasks. Thank you, 3DOP for correcting my bonehead term swapping.

[Calm]

Apparently there is no mutual support

that is unfortunate that there is not a mutual interest in sharing each other's spiritual experiences in their relationship, but even healthy relationships don't have direct one for one correspondences because not everyone has the same sort of needs. For example, in my relationship my husband provides much more physical support for me than I do for him because of my health issues while he is relatively healthy and has no need for me to pick up his meds etc. OTOH I provide much more social support for him in the sense of going to events I am not interested in but want to support him by participating with him or just standing there being introduced as his wife. He would love it if I could be practically 24/7 with him. If I want to go to something, it doesn't matter to me if he goes or not, in fact sometimes it is better if he doesn't so I can fully concentrate on other things though I do greatly enjoy his company.

[Spammer]

I totally get where you're coming from. At present in my own crisis of faith, I still attend church for my family and I don't want to out myself to the ward. I'm trying to believe in the church, but what I now know of it's history etc. I just can't. But it's killing my husband and I don't want to mess up the dynamics. He has some doubts but will always see something in the bible or elsewhere that confirms it's true. I wish that could happen to me. I've longed to try another church just to compare the two, maybe just maybe, it'll be so terrible I'll run back to the LDS way of life, haha. But for now once in a great while, will listen to a sermon from a different faith on the internet. My husband wouldn't step foot in one. He went to several back in the south on his mission and thinks most are a crock. But I do have to give him a little credit, he'll occasionally listen to a sermon on the radio in his truck, where before it was so off putting at first. So that is my life for now. I understand our positions and I understand our spouses positions. I wish I'd never stumbled onto faith shattering info on the internet or read a couple of books that were written by active LDS authors even. I don't understand how I'm unable to keep the faith under these conditions and so many on here continue to, with all the knowledge and then some. But it has been extremely helpful to see how you've dealt with things.

Below is a podcast that might help you and your wife if you care to share it with her.

http://mormonstories...risis-of-faith/

Tacenda,

I'm glad what I've shared has helped. I had no such intentions when I posted. I'm a black hole of need, sucking all of the attention this thread has gotten into helping me solve my own problems. I know exactly what you mean about stumbling across the non-correlated material that's now readily available. A small part of me wishes I'd just paid attention and followed the counsel of the more extreme of the Brethren and devoutly avoided anything that wasn't published by BYU, Bookcraft, or Deseret Book. I would be living with rose-colored and whitewashed glasses, but I'm sure we'd be happier at home as a family. Thanks for the link to the podcast. I'll give it a listen and share with my wife.