Out Of The Mouths Of Babes

[Yirgacheffe]

I attend GD with her when she goes (which is not every week and always sitting silently with her in the back), otherwise I'm on the couch reading during class time.

I still don't see why you have to be there in a class you don't participate in, or why you have to sit in a waiting area while she participates. In neither case are you going to church together, she's going and you're just sitting around.

[Spammer]

...because she hates having people come up to her to sympathize with her about the fact that her husband left the church. HATES!!

[Walden]

I still don't see why you have to be there in a class you don't participate in, or why you have to sit in a waiting area while she participates. In neither case are you going to church together, she's going and you're just sitting around.

Not sure if you are married or not, Yirgacheffe, but having been married for 11 years myself, I know that there are illogical, and admittedly sometimes irritating, things that I do for the simple purpose of just making my wife happy. I often sometimes even have to ask myself, "why am I doing this again," and sometimes the only answer is, "because it makes my wife happy," simple as that.

My wife does the same thing for me. It is the give and take of marriage, where logic is sometimes thrown out the window.

[TAO]

Ya gotta do what the wife asks ya ta do =p. I'm not married, and even I know that.

There is a very old that is said about it... there are only four words that are truly essential to a mairrage (for guys, mostly). The are, "Yes honey, you're right."

I am pretty sure it's a very accurate saying, hehe.

[Spammer]

I'm surrounded by scholars! "Yes, honey, I agree. Anything for you." I've been married for 22 years and counting.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Spammer

[Yirgacheffe]

Not sure if you are married or not, Yirgacheffe, but having been married for 11 years myself, I know that there are illogical, and admittedly sometimes irritating, things that I do for the simple purpose of just making my wife happy. I often sometimes even have to ask myself, "why am I doing this again," and sometimes the only answer is, "because it makes my wife happy," simple as that.

My wife does the same thing for me. It is the give and take of marriage, where logic is sometimes thrown out the window.

I agree marriage is give and take and we've been though a lot of over the last 20 (next Feb) years. In this situation I'm just not seeing "give and take", I don't see why Spammer should have to sit in a waiting room, it's not something I'd expect. Actually attending church with me at times yes, sitting around waiting for me to finish bible study every week, no, I just can't see give and take in this.

[TAO]

I'm surrounded by scholars! "Yes, honey, I agree. Anything for you." I've been married for 22 years and counting.

Lol XD.

[Calm]

I still don't see why you have to be there in a class you don't participate in, or why you have to sit in a waiting area while she participates. In neither case are you going to church together, she's going and you're just sitting around.

He can't exactly attend RS.

[Yirgacheffe]

He can't exactly attend RS.

So why does he have to be there, why can't she go to RS on her own?

[Calm]

So are you suggesting they take two cars so he can take off after Sunday School rather than waiting for her? What is your solution?

Priesthood is what the men attend while women attend RS, he doesn't want to go to PH...understandably....so the other options I can see are to sit in the hall waiting for her to be done so they can go home together, leave separately whenever he wants leaving her to come home on her own somewhat defeating the purpose of attending in the first place or find something to do like helping out in nursery or maybe the library that doesn't involve any discussion of belief or disbelief.

[Yirgacheffe]

I really don't see how sitting silently through a class or sitting out in a hallway is considered support. Why would anyone expect that of someone? And does she do the same thing for Spammer, does she go to church with him and their kids? If not there is no give and take only take on one person's part.

[Yirgacheffe]

So are you suggesting they take two cars so he can take off after Sunday School rather than waiting for her? What is your solution?

Priesthood is what the men attend while women attend RS, he doesn't want to go to PH...understandably....so the other options I can see are to sit in the hall waiting for her to be done so they can go home together, leave separately whenever he wants leaving her to come home on her own somewhat defeating the purpose of attending in the first place or find something to do like helping out in nursery or maybe the library that doesn't involve any discussion of belief or disbelief.

She attends her church on her own (that's what I'd do), he attends his or they take turns attending each others.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Yirgacheffe

[Calm]

Having a husband who is a ward clerk who has Taylor early and stay late for various meetings, I can say for myself there is something missing coming home at separate times. I think if it is an option for him to take separate cars, that it is very kind of him not to as there is something significant about going places together even if one doesn't stay together while there (having had that experience with college, church and a few other things in my life with not only my husband and other family members, but friends). Little experiences of connection add up to big things, IMO.

Making these kinds of sacrifices are one way of expressing love.

Edited after seeing above post to remove answered question.

Edited November 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Yirgacheffe]

Having a husband who is a ward clerk who has Taylor early and stay late for various meetings, I can say for myself there is something missing coming home at separate times. I think if it is an option for him to take separate cars, that it is very kind of him not to as there is something significant about going places together even if one doesn't stay together while there (having had that experience with college, church and a few other things in my life with not only my husband and other family members, but friends). Little experiences of connection add up to big things, IMO.

Making these kinds of sacrifices are one way of expressing love.

Edited after seeing above post to remove answered question.

Well if you can't be happy doing things on your own okay, we go some places together and other places separately, and "do for the other" on the fly. But I am still not seen "give and take" in this, where is Mrs. Spammer or the church respecting Spammer's religion or giving to and supporting Spammer, no where I see.

[altersteve]

Spammer, I'm sorry so many Latter-day Saints are treating you like that. That's not the attitude God wants from any of His children, much less from members of His Church.

Take care.

[Calm]

Well if you can't be happy doing things on your own okay, we go some places together and other places separately, and "do for the other" on the fly. But I am still not seen "give and take" in this, where is Mrs. Spammer or the church respecting Spammer's religion or giving to and supporting Spammer, no where I see.

It is not me or anyone else not being able to be happy on our own, it is knowing that someone else cares enough about us to go out of their own comfort zone to be with us, my husband does it for me and I do it for him because we love each other and this is one of the ways we show it, just as I was willing to attend an awards dinner tonight to support my husband with my presence even though I would have much rather been home reading a book and even though a good deal of the time was spent by me twiddling my thumbs, though I did try to make use of the time by looking for others who looked out of place and engaging them in conversation so perhaps they felt it wasn't a such an excruciating experience.

Everything can't be ideally balanced in a relationship, it is not wise to look at it as a give and take IMO. You give what you can, trust if you need something, your love will do his/her best even if it may not match what you give. If you start attempting to make sure you get out of a relationship what you put into it, you start holding back, protecting yourself, not giving your all. When it comes to marriage, this is not particularly healthy IMO.

His children appear to respect his faith, unless his family is very unusual they probably picked up,that attitude at least in part from their mother. If one parent degrades or even just neglects the other, children usually act out much the same unfortunately in my experience, at least until they are older and understand the dynamics better.

Also, the question is not whether or not you see such behaviour as support but whether his wife and spammer do. Each relationship is unique and what is most meaningful to one may be meaningless to another.

Edited November 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[bcuzbcuz]

My son was just asked a series of questions by a 10-year old member of the ward after he recently heard his mom chatting with someone about me over the phone:

"You're dad 's a Catholic? Why? Did he do something bad?"

I liked your little story. I didn't like some of the responses you have been given. I find it touching that you attend church services with your wife. You sitting outside class seems, to me, to be quite practical. Just because you're married doesn't mean you're joined at the hip.

I remember my Dad driving my Mother, my brother and sister and myself to church and waiting outside to drive us home. He never was a Mormon, never entertained any thought about becoming one but I remember his patience with fondness.

[Calm]

I remember my Dad driving my Mother, my brother and sister and myself to church and waiting outside to drive us home. He never was a Mormon, never entertained any thought about becoming one but I remember his patience with fondness.

one thing my dad can not do is sit still so it is a huge thing to me when I see men willing to not only wait for the women in their lives, but don't act like martyrs when they choose to do so. I find it very touching and a great example of love and compassion.

[Tacenda]

I wonder if like other marriages that have a spouse like Spammer and quit the church, the spouse believes that since they started out in the church and it was the plan at first why should the believing spouse change and have to attend another church alternately. This is alluding to the post above about Spammer's wife attending his church also.

[cdowis]

Of course you don't believe that. I'm not speaking your language. I know. People like me can't exist in your world. God answered and I missed it, or wasn't listening, or was distracted, or got the answer and rationalized it away, or didn't really want an answer, or am pretending because I'd rather not have to change my life, or I'm harboring a secret sin, or I didn't really pray in faith.. Am I forgetting any possibilities?

OK, how about setting a deadline for an answer which was not God's timeline to give an answer.

I remember a GA who gave a talk where it took him several years to get an answer.

For me, I received the answer before I even knew anything about Joseph Smith or the BOM. I heard the missionaries speaking about the Plan of Salvation, and I heard a distinct voice declare, "It is true." I am acquainted with someone whose first exposure to the church was to hear a talk about eternal families and marriage, and immediately knew that it was a true principle.

The price for an answer is much higher for some than for others. In God's own time.

The scriptures tells us that the Lord has His own schedule. Moroni gave just one possibility, but Alma gave another path. Neither gave a deadline for that answer. For some, it would take a great deal of time and effort as we read in Alma 32 -- growing within us like a tree.

So don't ignore Alma when reading Moroni's promise.

Edited November 3, 2012 by cdowis

[TAO]

Tacenda, I guess it depends. My dad isn't a member, and yet he still allows us to go to church, and attends when mom asks him to. It will largely depend on the agreement between spouses.

[Yirgacheffe]

one thing my dad can not do is sit still so it is a huge thing to me when I see men willing to not only wait for the women in their lives, but don't act like martyrs when they choose to do so. I find it very touching and a great example of love and compassion.

And the women can't be equally compassionate and not expect them to just hang around waiting for them? I've known lots of mixed religion couples over the years and in many instances one spouse manages to go to church with the kids but without the other spouse. I just don't understand the expectation of a non-believing spouse sitting in a hallway or waiting in the car.

[Calm]

And I just don't understand why you can't let a grown man make a decision for himself to do something just because you yourself and some others wouldn't do it. Spammer seems a sensible, intelligent, thoughtful man capable of thinking through his own actions and making useful, responsible and caring decisions. Chances are, from the little he has spoken of his immediate family, his wife is the same way and makes compassionate sacrifices for him, but this is not what he chose to discuss in detail in the thread.

This thread is not about what couples in general need to do save in the vaguest way of working together to figure out what works for their relationships, with spammer and his wife providing one example of how one family chooses to support each other. Another family might choose a different way. As long as it works for the family why should anyone outside that family be concerned?

What is the big deal? If it works for his relationship and he and his wife are good with it, why do you feel the need to disapprove instead of being supportive?

Edited November 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[bcuzbcuz]

And the women can't be equally compassionate and not expect them to just hang around waiting for them? I've known lots of mixed religion couples over the years and in many instances one spouse manages to go to church with the kids but without the other spouse. I just don't understand the expectation of a non-believing spouse sitting in a hallway or waiting in the car.

You seem to be reading something into this discussion that I don't see. You seem to be equating the support given by the non-believing spouse as a forced support. Sort of: " You will/must drive me to church and you will/must wait for me until I'm finished, and then you will/must drive me home." Maybe that's how it works in some relationships, but not in all.

[Spammer]

Thanks for all of the feedback folks! I don't know about other families, but in ours I know full well that I'm the one that changed things by deciding to leave the church. My decision brought an unstated assumption out into the open (probably very common in the church) - "we were both LDS when we got married, you're obligated you to always remain in the church, no matter what." Implicit in the assumption is the idea that, by leaving the church, I unilaterally altered the nature of the relationship, as if both parties have to agree to a change in beliefs. This view, of course, undermines any missionary work to families, including that of LDS missionaries, unless both spouses agree to convert to the same set of beliefs. Religious beliefs are very subjective and personal. I don't see how they can be - or should be - subject to agreement. It's not like I just decided one day to stop believing in what Joseph Smith had to say. The experience was just like looking through Galileo's telescope. One day I believed in the heliocentric universe. Then I looked through the telescope. "Oh. Uhhh...hmm. I guess the earth really does orbit the sun. Now what?" My wife's view is that I still should have just stuck with the Church of Heliocentrism, since that's what we were when we got married. Never mind the fact that I no longer believe in heliocentrism, nor can I. No amount of evidence can convince me otherwise. Sorry, folks. The earth is round and it orbits the sun. I violated the implicit agreement built into our marriage regarding religion in our home. The assumption is there because my wife, like many Mormons, cannot even remotely conceive that someone could legitimately come to a different conclusion about Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, I looked through the telescope and my world was rocked. I get that my wife takes it personally. That's the reason I try to be sensitive and patient (though I often fail miserably) and go to church with her. She has no desire to go with me to my church. "I have no interest in it, it doesn't mean anything to me," she says. I hate walking out the door alone and she doesn't like seeing me go alone. Sometimes she worries some other woman will run off with me, someone who shares my beliefs. When she mentions that, I just invite her to come - please, come! - I'd rather she was with me and there's no better way to keep her eyes on me. But no, she never comes. "Not interested. It's not for me." So, in the end it's just me that goes to church with her - mainly to preclude the sympathetic comments ("Poor Sister Spammer)" she loathes to hear and to help get the kids there. Plus, she wants here husband there and I don't blame her. That's how it works for us.