Defining Homosexuality

[Danzo]

In reading these threads, it would seem that different people have different definitions of Homosexuality. I think that how one defines it has a lot to do with what one's position on it. I have the following questions.

1. Is it binary? (yes/no) or is there a relative scale?

2. Is physiological? Could one determine via DNA sample, tissue sample or brain scan (In a double blind scenario) if someone were homosexual or not (or to what degree they were)?

3. Is it independent of ones self diagnosis (could someone think they were and not be or vice versa) or is it defined by ones self diagnosis?

4. If homosexuality is a matter of degree (non binary) is that degree a magic number that stays fixed or does it vary based on outside( or inside variables)

5. Stupid hypothetical: If a homosexual man (or woman for that matter) were to never encounter a person of the same sex, would he (or she) ever know of the homosexuality.

I am curious and would like to know more about the condition.

Comments?

[RobertAC]

Danzo,

I am not a human sexuality expert by any means, but here is my understanding of sexual orientation in general using your questions:

1. Is it binary? (yes/no) or is there a relative scale?

Relative scale. A person can be gay, straight, or somewhere in between. However, sexual orientation is but a part of human sexuality. Other factors include fetishes, preferences, and relative strength of sexual desire.

Alfred Kinsey studied and reported upon human sexuality. His remains one of the best studies around, but there are others.

2. Is physiological? Could one determine via DNA sample, tissue sample or brain scan (In a double blind scenario) if someone were homosexual or not (or to what degree they were)?

This is debateable. Studies of the hypothalmus of gay men suggested that it was of a different size that straight men leading some to believe that homosexuality is genetic. However, the "nature vs. nurture" debate is unresolved. Many psychologists believe that there is a combination of factors -- some biological and some psychological -- that define sexual orientation.

3. Is it independent of ones self diagnosis (could someone think they were and not be or vice versa) or is it defined by ones self diagnosis?

This question is hard to answer. It largely depends upon the culture. Some people may engage in sexual activities with a member of the same sex, but not define themselves as gay. Today, gay and lesbian people often identify themselves by their sexual orientation as part of their cultural identity. However, this has not always been so, and in other societies people who have engaged in sexual practices with a person of the same sex, or have fantisized about doing so, do not necessarily see themselves as gay.

4. If homosexuality is a matter of degree (non binary) is that degree a magic number that stays fixed or does it vary based on outside( or inside variables)

Kinsey suggested that sexual orientation can change over time, as can fetishes. However, this does not mean that people normally go from straight to gay, and vice versa, over a short period of time. There is greater chance to modify sexual behavior than changing someone's orientation.

5. Stupid hypothetical: If a homosexual man (or woman for that matter) were to never encounter a person of the same sex, would he (or she) ever know of the homosexuality.

Don't have a clue.

[swfarnsworth]

I'm typing this out on my tablet, which may result in abbreviation.

I have SSA, so I'll offer my perspective on the topic.

1. Relative scale. I can understand why a man might be more attracted to one woman than another, though no actual attraction is evoked in me.

2. My guess is that there's a genetic mutation making someone more inclined to it, but since classifying homosexuality as any sort of abnormality (which it obviously is) is not PC, it's difficult for any objective study to be done on the topic.

3. Why did you ask this?

4. I think it can shift around, primarily during a person's youth.

[Danzo]

I'm typing this out on my tablet, which may result in abbreviation.

I have SSA, so I'll offer my perspective on the topic.

1. Relative scale. I can understand why a man might be more attracted to one woman than another, though no actual attraction is evoked in me.

2. My guess is that there's a genetic mutation making someone more inclined to it, but since classifying homosexuality as any sort of abnormality (which it obviously is) is not PC, it's difficult for any objective study to be done on the topic.

3. Why did you ask this?

4. I think it can shift around, primarily during a person's youth.

As for question number 3, It seems to me, that most homosexuality is self diagnosed. I Question, if it is self diagnosed, it would be difficult to assume that everyone who self diagnoses themself use the same criteria. It might then be possible for two people who say they are homosexual, to be referring to different conditions.

[Danzo]

I'm typing this out on my tablet, which may result in abbreviation.

2. My guess is that there's a genetic mutation making someone more inclined to it, but since classifying homosexuality as any sort of abnormality (which it obviously is) is not PC, it's difficult for any objective study to be done on the topic.

Do think this might be analogous to the condition of alcoholism (not trying to be derogatory but trying to find something similar).

I've heard that it is genetic, I know that several of my ancestors were alcoholic, geneticly, I may have it, but since I have never taken a drink of alcohol, I might never know if I have it?

[RobertAC]

As for question number 3, It seems to me, that most homosexuality is self diagnosed. I Question, if it is self diagnosed, it would be difficult to assume that everyone who self diagnoses themself use the same criteria. It might then be possible for two people who say they are homosexual, to be referring to different conditions.

I think I understand your question better. The answer is yes, although I would not refer to sexual orientation as being "diagnosed" or a "condition." Homosexuality is not a disease.

Men and women who are homosexual or bisexual and who use the term "same sex attracted" rather than "gay" tend to see homosexuality as a negative. Homosexuality is a sexual act rather than a orientation. People who identify as "gay" tend to see their orientation in neutral or positive terms. They may see homosexuality as not only the sexual act, but also the attraction to members of the same sex.

[BlueDreams]

1. Is it binary? (yes/no) or is there a relative scale?

Relative scale

2. Is physiological? Could one determine via DNA sample, tissue sample or brain scan (In a double blind scenario) if someone were homosexual or not (or to what degree they were)?

No. Much of what we are isn't based on a single gene and even a sequence of genes. Rather genes influence how we interact with our environment and predispose us to certain traits or interactions. Considering twin studies done on homosexuality, I'd assume that there is genetice influence. But it's not like hair color where each time you line up certain genes you'll get brown hair. Moreso that a variety of genes help to influence the development of sexuality.

3. Is it independent of ones self diagnosis (could someone think they were and not be or vice versa) or is it defined by ones self diagnosis?

Umm...I don't know. There's not exactly a list of characteristics that indicate, "Oh you are most definitely gay." And there's not really anything like a "diagnosis" to go around period. Homoesexuality in an of itself is not considered a disorder. So if a person says they're attracted to the same-sex, that they're gay, or whatever other description they use...well then, I'll take their word for it. Don't have much else to go with.

4. If homosexuality is a matter of degree (non binary) is that degree a magic number that stays fixed or does it vary based on outside( or inside variables)

I personaly think that it can shift around. I think most people sexuality shifts around a little naturally as it is.

5. Stupid hypothetical: If a homosexual man (or woman for that matter) were to never encounter a person of the same sex, would he (or she) ever know of the homosexuality.

Probably not. How would you know, when what you're sexually attracted to isn't around. Would I know I'm straight without men surrounding me???

With luv,

BD

I am curious and would like to know more about the condition.

Comments?

[RobertAC]

Do think this might be analogous to the condition of alcoholism (not trying to be derogatory but trying to find something similar).

I've heard that it is genetic, I know that several of my ancestors were alcoholic, geneticly, I may have it, but since I have never taken a drink of alcohol, I might never know if I have it?

Sexual addiction is an addiction, regardless of orientation. However, sexual orientation itself is not an addiction.

That said, there is some evidence that homosexuality is more prevalent in some families than in others.

[Danzo]

I think I understand your question better. The answer is yes, although I would not refer to sexual orientation as being "diagnosed" or a "condition." Homosexuality is not a disease.

Men and women who are homosexual or bisexual and who use the term "same sex attracted" rather than "gay" tend to see homosexuality as a negative. Homosexuality is a sexual act rather than a orientation. People who identify as "gay" tend to see their orientation in neutral or positive terms. They may see homosexuality as not only the sexual act, but also the attraction to members of the same sex.

If it is not a "diagnosis", or a "condition", what word do we use to discuss it? is there a non loaded word? "Attribute?"

[RobertAC]

If it is not a "diagnosis", or a "condition", what word do we use to discuss it? is there a non loaded word? "Attribute?"

In the context of the way you used it, the term "self diagnosed" would best be replaced with "self identified." "Orientation" rather than "condition."

[swfarnsworth]

If it is not a "diagnosis", or a "condition", what word do we use to discuss it? is there a non loaded word? "Attribute?"

I would call it a mental condition. From a purely evolutionary standpoint, lacking the desire to reproduce is not normal.

[Duncan]

Sexual addiction is an addiction, regardless of orientation. However, sexual orientation itself is not an addiction.

That said, there is some evidence that homosexuality is more prevalent in some families than in others.

how would homosexuality run in some families if men can't copulate with men?

[Lamanite]

I would call it a mental condition. From a purely evolutionary standpoint, lacking the desire to reproduce is not normal.

Something that no one has brought up is whether being gay is something that God has created or intended. Perhaps being Gay is a trial (Soul making theodicy). Perhaps because God likes a few gay people here and there.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[RobertAC]

how would homosexuality run in some families if men can't copulate with men?

I will attach a Stanford study: http://news.stanford.edu/pr/95/950310Arc5328.html

The gist is that if a person is gay, there is greater chance that a sibling will also be gay. According to the study above, if a boy is gay, the chance is four times greater that his brother will be gay. Although not cited in the study, it is my understanding that this is true with sisters -- that there is a greater chance that the sister will be lesbian if her brother is gay.

[Danzo]

Something that no one has brought up is whether being gay is something that God has created or intended. Perhaps being Gay is a trial (Soul making theodicy). Perhaps because God likes a few gay people here and there.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I do not think that LDS Theology imputes the "will of god" in to it. Many bad things both physically, genetically and socially constructed are part of the fall and our mortal condition

I would like this thread to discuss (and hopefully come to some agreement) how we define this particular attribute.

Some would define it solely by actions (Homosexuality=Homosexual acts). This definition has the advantage of being simple (easy to measure)

There are a large group of people who wish to define it as a state of being which may or may not result in Homosexual acts. If we are to use this definition, I would like to have it defined more clearly, so we can better discuss it.

I have had very little contact with "Gays". (at least those open enough to admit it, and I don't pick up very well on subtle cues)

Edited October 6, 2012 by Danzo

[Duncan]

I will attach a Stanford study: http://news.stanford...310Arc5328.html

The gist is that if a person is gay, there is greater chance that a sibling will also be gay. According to the study above, if a boy is gay, the chance is four times greater that his brother will be gay. Although not cited in the study, it is my understanding that this is true with sisters -- that there is a greater chance that the sister will be lesbian if her brother is gay.

who would be passing on the gene though if no one is...?

[california boy]

In reading these threads, it would seem that different people have different definitions of Homosexuality. I think that how one defines it has a lot to do with what one's position on it. I have the following questions.

1. Is it binary? (yes/no) or is there a relative scale?

2. Is physiological? Could one determine via DNA sample, tissue sample or brain scan (In a double blind scenario) if someone were homosexual or not (or to what degree they were)?

3. Is it independent of ones self diagnosis (could someone think they were and not be or vice versa) or is it defined by ones self diagnosis?

4. If homosexuality is a matter of degree (non binary) is that degree a magic number that stays fixed or does it vary based on outside( or inside variables)

5. Stupid hypothetical: If a homosexual man (or woman for that matter) were to never encounter a person of the same sex, would he (or she) ever know of the homosexuality.

I am curious and would like to know more about the condition.

Comments?

Being one of the few gay posters on this board, I will be glad to answer your questions.

1. I don't really know. I only know I have no physical atrraction to women or any of their body parts that seem to excite other men.

2. I don't know if it is genetic or not. Is all I know for sure is that I have been attracted to men since I was 12 years old and spent most of my life trying to not be attracted to men. My attraction has never altered my entire life. It is just there.

3. Social pressure by churches, schools, tv, movies, advertising, the fear of God all tried to recruit me to be straight. None of it worked. I was told all my life that I should have no attraction to men. It didn't really matter how many times I was told that, nor how big of treat including being kicked out of my mormon family and told I was going to hell forever, my attraction to men has never altered. I don't know any gay men that woke up one day and decided it would be a much easier life if they "choose" to be gay. Just doesn't happen.

4, I don't know. Is all I know for sure is my attraction has never altered since I was 12 years old.

5. I have no idea.

[california boy]

I do not think that LDS Theology imputes the "will of god" in to it. Many bad things both physically, genetically and socially constructed are part of the fall and our mortal condition

I would like this thread to discuss (and hopefully come to some agreement) how we define this particular attribute.

Some would define it solely by actions (Homosexuality=Homosexual acts). This definition has the advantage of being simple (easy to measure)

There are a large group of people who wish to define it as a state of being which may or may not result in Homosexual acts. If we are to use this definition, I would like to have it defined more clearly, so we can better discuss it.

I have had very little contact with "Gays". (at least those open enough to admit it, and I don't pick up very well on subtle cues)

Being gay and having sex with the same gender are not the same thing. Anyone can have sex with the same gender. It does not mean they are gay nor does it make them gay. Just because you are in the garage does not make you a car.

I know gay men who have never had sex with a man. It is not as uncommon as you might imagine. Yet they still know without a doubt that they are gay. Does sex with a woman make you heterosexual? I would say that the majority of Mormons knew they were straight long before their wedding night.

Edited October 6, 2012 by california boy

[MormonMason]

There is some recent evidence that it may be attributable for at least some to problems with expression of glutamates in the brain. There have been fruitfly studies done (fruitflies have many of the same genes expressed in humans, which is why they are studied) with glutamates. Those female fruitflies exposed to additional glutamates in their diets began mounting females like males would do. The same occurred with male fruitflies, who then went after other makes while under the influence of the glutamates. After the glutamates stopped being added to the flies, all of them ceased their behaviors and went back to normal. These findings are not widely known and the studies not easily available online. They only have the barest mention in some places. But, they cause offense and anger just about wherever they are mentioned.

If improper expression of certain chemicals (possibly even those in our diets such as large amounts of monosodium glutamate and like compounds introduced into many foodstuffs, and some people being more sensitive to such than others) can cause something like this, there may one day be a cure on the horizon. I have heard rumors about a corporation secretly developing a nosespray or some such for the treatment of initial SSA, but I have seen no hard information about which corporation it might be, if any. You know rumors...

Edited October 6, 2012 by MormonMason

[california boy]

who would be passing on the gene though if no one is...?

There are penty of gay men that through religious and social pressure marry. I was promised that if I just got married, I would no longe be gay. I have children. If there is a genetic element, it would be passed on.

[Duncan]

There are penty of gay men that through religious and social pressure marry. I was promised that if I just got married, I would no longe be gay. I have children. If there is a genetic element, it would be passed on.

I know three other men in that same group, all great guys! Thank you!

[Skylla]

One thread about SSA at a time.

Skylla