JamesJ Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 The cross is a symbol of where Jesus suffered a very, very painful death by taking upon himself the sins of the world, and by those who refused to believe He Was The Son OF GOD. He suffered extreme spiritual and physical pains. However, Jesus was not "GOD in flesh", he was The Son OF GOD! Besides, GOD IS ACTUALLY female, not male, and The First Jesus knew this, but refused to share that TRUTH with the people, thereby denying GOD, and becoming the anti-christ, as described in the bible, "misleading many people"!!! Hence, the need for A Second Coming, not by Him, but by Another Jesus. That is the Vision that Joseph Smith Jr. received FROM GOD. It foretold of The Second Coming,Two Seperate Jesus', however, Joseph misunderstood it to be "father and son". Joseph was told "not to join any church", so he started a new one, A Restored Church, kindof. He was actually supposed to share The Vision he saw with the world, and the world was to wait for The Second Coming, that is when the world is learning that GOD IS female, and we are Saved BY GOD'S GRACE ALONE, not through faith and trust in The First Jesus. That "Restored Church" is the Church Of Latter Days.Jesus did pay the price for the sins of the world, up to that moment of His death on the cross, but so did satan. Satan took upon himself the sins of the world from the point of Jesus' death, and all of the generations to follow, until the end of time on this earth.- James Johnsonwww.thechurchoflatterdays.org
MormonMason Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) Do you have a useful contribution to make to this discussion apart from calling me names? I have seen no sign of it yet.The resurrection is not the Atonement, or even part of the Atonement. It is a result of the Atonemewnt. Sin brought death into the world, and the Atonement reversed the process and brought back life. But the resurrection is not the Atonement, or even part of the Atonement.If I became sick and went to the doctor, and he prescribed me a bitter medicine for it; and after eating the medicine I became well again; my becoming well is a result of taking that medicine, not the medicine itself, or even part of the medicine. You want to tell me that my getting well is the same as the medicine which I took to get well, which is a ridiculous nonsense. The Atonement consists of the "bitter cup" that Jesus had to drink (i.e. the suffering and death He endured on our behalf); and the resurrection is the result of that Atonement. It is not the Atonement itself, or even part of the Atonement.I have not called you any names at all. However, I know gospel-hobbyism when I see it. What you are writing rings of it. Your gospel-hobbyist medicine analogy also fails because the scriptures as a whole teach all three elements of the atonement were necessary and that the death on the cross is useless without the resurrection. If that were not so, and the cross alone was the atonement, why was that not considered enough? If it were true that the cross was all that were needed and that the cross alone were the whole of the atonement, there would be no concern on the part of scripture writers about the resurrection of Christ being so necessary to put an end to both spiritual and physical death and that the atonement would not be complete and infinite without it, now would there?Obviously, if sins are to be nailed upon the cross, the sins have to be put upon the sacrifice like in the case of the scapegoat and in the case of the sacrificial lamb, prior to the sacrifice, and sending of the sin out away. "Mormonism" teaches that the sins were placed upon Christ in the garden of Gethsemane, which suffering caused him to bleed at every pore and desire that he not complete his preparations. This teaching is based upon clear statements of the Lord himself in the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon, with the support of a biblical passage.The cup included the suffering in the garden and the suffering on the cross. But, that does not preclude the third part of the atonement--the completion thereof--from being part of the atonement, because death (while a release of sorts) also is a part of the bitter cup. The bitter cup (also called 'dregs') also is the punishment of the damned (consider Alma 40:26) and also suffering of one kind or another (such as the cup of God's fury: consider Isaiah 51:17; 51:22; Jeremiah 25:15-17, 27-28; 49:12) in the passages where the term is used in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon. Christ had that entire suffering put upon him in the garden, he continued to suffer it on the cross, and suffered death as the culmination of the bitter cup of damnation.But, consider also Matthew 20:21-23. Here, Jesus states that two of his disciples will drink the same cup that he will drink. Really??? If your gospel hobbyist's interpretation of "the cup" be true, would that mean that both these disciples would be crucified and also offer themselves as atonement for the sins of all mankind? Ridiculous. Edited October 7, 2012 by MormonMason
JamesJ Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Do you have a useful contribution to make to this discussion apart from calling me names? I have seen no sign of it yet.The resurrection is not the Atonement, or even part of the Atonement. It is a result of the Atonemewnt. Sin brought death into the world, and the Atonement reversed the process and brought back life. But the resurrection is not the Atonement, or even part of the Atonement.If I became sick and went to the doctor, and he prescribed me a bitter medicine for it; and after eating the medicine I became well again; my becoming well is a result of taking that medicine, not the medicine itself, or even part of the medicine. You want to tell me that my getting well is the same as the medicine which I took to get well, which is a ridiculous nonsense. The Atonement consists of the "bitter cup" that Jesus had to drink (i.e. the suffering and death He endured on our behalf); and the resurrection is the result of that Atonement. It is not the Atonement itself, or even part of the Atonement.Death is not the result of sin, or payment to GOD for our sins. Nor is it GOD'S WAY OF PUNISHMENT. Instead, it is the natural process by which our physical body and our soul & spirit seperate. The payment for my sins, the generations before me, and yours, was taken upon by Jesus and satan. If there are any unforgivable sins when we die, GOD WILL SEE TO THAT.We are saved BY GOD'S GRACE ALONE, and GUARANTEED Eternal Life!-James Johnsonwww.theChurchOfLatterDays.org
MormonMason Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) We are saved BY GOD'S GRACE ALONE, and GUARANTEED Eternal Life!To bad that isn't true. We are saved by grace through something else--faith (and not a dead faith). If we were saved by grace alone there would be no need for faith or for deeds to make a living faith working synergistically with deeds. Edited October 7, 2012 by MormonMason
JamesJ Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Mormons have generally taught that the Atonement, or at least the bigger part of it, took place in Gethsene rather than on the cross. There are some of us who think that is doing things the wrong way round, kind of like putting the cart before the horse. What do you think?Actually, The Atonement took place upon the cross. Gethsene is where Jesus suffered for denying our TRUE GOD.- James Johnsonwww.theChurchOfLatterDays.org
JamesJ Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 To bad that isn't true. We are saved by grace through something else--faith (and not a dead faith). If we were saved by grace alone there would be no need for faith or for deeds to make a living faith working synergistically with deeds.It IS TRUE. GOD won't deny someone simply due to a lack of faith, and, I don't do good deeds so that I can get into Heaven. I do good because I want to. Thanks!
JamesJ Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 It IS TRUE. GOD won't deny someone simply due to a lack of faith, and, I don't do good deeds so that I can get into Heaven. I do good because I want to. Thanks!It rubs me wrong when people focus upon their good deeds done, rather than upon the harms they have caused, and how to right them!- James Johnson
volgadon Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Do you have a useful contribution to make to this discussion apart from calling me names? I have seen no sign of it yet.Really?
volgadon Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 It rubs me wrong when people focus upon their good deeds done, rather than upon the harms they have caused, and how to right them!- James JohnsonSo does pretentiousness, but oh well.
Flyonthewall Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) Actually, The Atonement took place upon the cross. Gethsene is where Jesus suffered for denying our TRUE GOD.- James Johnsonwww.theChurchOfLatterDays.orgNevermind... Edited October 7, 2012 by Flyonthewall
MormonMason Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 It IS TRUE. GOD won't deny someone simply due to a lack of faith, and, I don't do good deeds so that I can get into Heaven. I do good because I want to. Thanks!It isn't true. See Ephesians 2:8. One is saved by grace THROUGH faith. But, what kind of faith is it? Is it a dead faith or a living faith? See the Greek text of James 2:22-24 to find out what constitutes a living faith. It isn't just a matter of doing so because you want to do so. It is a necessity. Again, see the Greek text to see what a limited English translation won't let you see. As you read, consider the question, "What is a synergy?"And, if works have nothing to do with the equation, why will we all be judged thereby? They should have exactly zero to do with anything.But, in fairness, the fact that we are saved at all is solely by the grace of Christ. Yet, he still requires us to do and not just to say. Dead faith or living faith? That is the question. Yet, your above claim that we are "saved by grace alone" is not true. It is by grace through faith. It is not a dead faith but a living faith that "works together with" (synergei) works to bring about justification. If you accept the scriptures as a whole as they say what they say, you will recognize that we are not saved by grace alone. 1
MormonMason Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Actually, The Atonement took place upon the cross. Gethsene is where Jesus suffered for denying our TRUE GOD.- James Johnsonwww.theChurchOfLatterDays.orgJesus denied the true God? Well, I suppose that is just one more whacked out view of Christ and the atonement to add to your others. Sorry but Jesus never denied God. I have no idea where you are getting that.
Skylla Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Actually, The Atonement took place upon the cross. Gethsene is where Jesus suffered for denying our TRUE GOD.- James Johnsonwww.theChurchOfLatterDays.orgThis forum is not your platform. Don't advertise here.Skylla
MorningStar Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Death is not the result of sin, or payment to GOD for our sins. Nor is it GOD'S WAY OF PUNISHMENT. Instead, it is the natural process by which our physical body and our soul & spirit seperate. The payment for my sins, the generations before me, and yours, was taken upon by Jesus and satan. If there are any unforgivable sins when we die, GOD WILL SEE TO THAT.We are saved BY GOD'S GRACE ALONE, and GUARANTEED Eternal Life!-James Johnsonwww.theChurchOfLatterDays.orgUhhhhhhhh ........ The payment for our sins were taken upon by Jesus and Satan?Please provide a reference for that.
MormonMason Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Uhhhhhhhh ........ The payment for our sins were taken upon by Jesus and Satan?Please provide a reference for that.Cae Cae told him that. That is all the reference he needs, I think.
Flyonthewall Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Cae Cae told him that. That is all the reference he needs, I think.Indeed...that's a can of worms that is best left unopened.
Calm Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Perhaps I should withdraw my suggestion to discuss? Am I missing something?
Flyonthewall Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Who the heck is Cae Cae?Though I am not suggesting you do so, the answer to that could be found on the link in his post.
Calm Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 I just read the section on his beliefs. She is God, who is a girl apparently, not woman or lady.Since the understanding that God is female is from a personal vision, there is noneed todiscuss it since he doesn't derive it from the scriptures as I supposed.
zerinus Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 I have not called you any names at all. However, I know gospel-hobbyism when I see it. . . .I can also recognize a false doctrine when I see one. The resurrection is not the Atonement, nor part of the Atonement. It is one of the results of the Atonement.The cup included the suffering in the garden and the suffering on the cross. But, that does not preclude the third part of the atonement--the completion thereof--from being part of the atonement, . . .The "completion" took place on the cross, when He declared, "It is finished". The resurrection is not the completion of the Atonement.But, consider also Matthew 20:21-23. Here, Jesus states that two of his disciples will drink the same cup that he will drink. Really??? If your gospel hobbyist's interpretation of "the cup" be true, would that mean that both these disciples would be crucified and also offer themselves as atonement for the sins of all mankind? Ridiculous.The scriptures use a lot of symbolisms, and the same symbol may have different meanings in the same context. It is not clear what "cup" Jesus was referring to in Matthew 20:21-23; but there is no doubt that the "cup" He was referring to in Matthew 26:42; John 18:11; 3 Nephi 11:11 is the Atonement He performed on the cross, which only He could perform and no one else.
altersteve Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) The "completion" took place on the cross, when He declared, "It is finished". The resurrection is not the completion of the Atonement.I disagree. I think He meant His time on earth was finished, not the Atonement.Why does it matter that some people believe the Resurrection of Christ was part of His Atonement, anyway? What's the problem with believing that? Surely you don't believe God is going to punish those who believe in this "false doctrine," do you? I think the inclusion of the Resurrection with the rest of the Atonement is beautiful, and is a concept that helps me personally better understand the scope of the Atonement and the gospel as a whole. Just because you don't see it that way doesn't mean you have to so harshly retaliate against those who do. Chill out. Edited October 7, 2012 by altersteve
The Grimace Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Who the heck is Cae Cae?I dunno, but this thread has gone from good to cray-cray.
Flyonthewall Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 This is begining to sound like the argument of faith vs works. Are works part of faith? or are they separate and a result of faith?What would have happened if the Resurrection did not take place? I beleive the relationship between the Atonement and the Resurrection is such that to say the resurrection is part of the atonement, though there may be a semantic difference, the function or purpose is the same.
teddyaware Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 I beleive the relationship between the Atonement and the Resurrection is such that to say the resurrection is part of the atonement, though there may be a semantic difference, the function or purpose is the same.Here's a good quote from Apostle Bruce R. McConkie apropos to the relationship of the Resurrection of Christ to the sacrificial phase of the atonement. I only offer it up at this time as a means to bring sharper focus to our discussion, now that it seems to be turning to the ressurection of Christ and it's role in our salvation."That which began in Gethsemane was finished on the cross and crowned in the resurrection.... How the resurrection ties in to the atonement, we do not know and cannot tell, only that the scriptures testify that the effects of the resurrection of Christ passed upon all men so that, because he rose from death, all are raised in immortality. In some way, incomprehensible to us, Gethsemane, the cross, and the empty tomb join into one grand and eternal drama, in the course of which Jesus abolishes death, and out of which comes immortality for all and eternal life for the righteous. (The Mortal Messiah, 4:224)"
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