Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I sent this question to a scholar and author and thought I would post it here as well to see what you guys thought. (Redacted for use here)Hi XXXX,Just reading something by J. Spencer Fluhman this morning. In his opening paragraph he writes, "the question of sexual contact with the youngest wives ignites controversy in print and across the Internet."In your opinion, why is Joseph's sexuality an issue that needs attention. What does this discussion offer as an award?If the reason for attention is the possible specter of adultery then I guess I understand. Adultery may call into question his Prophethood, so that may be a plausible explanation. Any other reasons?Does his dishonesty with Emma and others need attention and resolution more or less than his sexual practices? Does his dishonesty reflect the best efforts of a Prophet? (What I call dishonesty with Emma and others, other people call cautious and careful and private. At worst they call it secrecy.)Whenever you get a chance. Have a great day!Big UP!Lamanite
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I sent this question to a scholar and author and thought I would post it here as well to see what you guys thought. (Redacted for use here)Hi XXXX,Just reading something by J. Spencer Fluhman this morning. In his opening paragraph he writes, "the question of sexual contact with the youngest wives ignites controversy in print and across the Internet."In your opinion, why is Joseph's sexuality an issue that needs attention. What does this discussion offer as an award?If the reason for attention is the possible specter of adultery then I guess I understand. Adultery may call into question his Prophethood, so that may be a plausible explanation. Any other reasons?Does his dishonesty with Emma and others need attention and resolution more or less than his sexual practices? Does his dishonesty reflect the best efforts of a Prophet? (What I call dishonesty with Emma and others, other people call cautious and careful and private. At worst they call it secrecy.)Whenever you get a chance. Have a great day!Big UP!LamaniteMost LDS members don't even know about Joseph Smith's polygamy atleast not in my ward. And to discuss it outright, would bring dislike to anyone who tried.
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Most LDS members don't even know about Joseph Smith's polygamy atleast not in my ward. And to discuss it outright, would bring dislike to anyone who tried.Tacenda your ward must be an exception. I have never lived anywhere where the members were unaware of Joseph's polygamy. 4
Saints Alive Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 If the claims had any merit (and thats a big if ) then one could call into question Joseph's character and try to cast him as a crazed sexual deviant. Thats the anti's modus operandi anyway.
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Tacenda your ward must be an exception. I have never lived anywhere where the members were unaware of Joseph's polygamy.How about the details, specific details?
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 If the claims had any merit (and thats a big if ) then one could call into question Joseph's character and try to cast him as a crazed sexual deviant. Thats the anti's modus operandi anyway. The facts seem to indicate that Joseph was intimate with some of his wives. The end. Not sure what else. Aldultery could be argued by anti's but Mormons are just going to say, "Well he was married to them so big deal"Big UP!Lamanite
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 How about the details, specific details?May want to read Hale's presentation at the last FAIR conf. Sorry no link.,Big UP!Lamanite
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 How about the details, specific details?What details are you talking about?
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 What details are you talking about?Most members are not aware of the details of the polygamy Joseph Smith lived, for instance marrying the wives of active believing members of the church, sending some on missions and then asking their wives to marry him or be sealed.
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Most members are not aware of the details of the polygamy Joseph Smith lived, for instance marrying the wives of active believing members of the church, sending some on missions and then asking their wives to marry him or be sealed.Again I disagree with you. Of course without a scientific poll how do we find out for sure. In the circles that surround me anybody who has any interest in the topic is well aware.
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Most members are not aware of the details of the polygamy Joseph Smith lived, for instance marrying the wives of active believing members of the church, sending some on missions and then asking their wives to marry him or be sealed.From your statement I'm gonna go ahead and recommend some further reading. This should be a good start.Smith, GCompton, TQuinn, M.Newell,LBushman, RHale, B. (Released in Dec I think)And a bunch of Dialogue and Sunstone articles.Big UP!Lamanite
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Again I disagree with you. Of course without a scientific poll how do we find out for sure. In the circles that surround me anybody who has any interest in the topic is well aware.I wouldn't dare bring this up in class, it's not faith promoting. I don't even bring it up outside of the church. The one time that I did, about 3 years ago with my visiting teacher, not the fact that JS married other men's wives but that he had many wives, a fact I'd learned of earlier and had been stewing about for a couple of years and the reason for struggling, she, my VT, didn't want to hear any of it, she wouldn't believe it and didn't want her testimony to be harmed by it.
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I wouldn't dare bring this up in class, it's not faith promoting. I don't even bring it up outside of the church. The one time that I did, about 3 years ago with my visiting teacher, not the fact that JS married other men's wives but that he had many wives, a fact I'd learned of earlier and had been stewing about for a couple of years and the reason for struggling, she, my VT, didn't want to hear any of it, she wouldn't believe it and didn't want her testimony to be harmed by it.I believe you that there are some who don't want to know and talk about it. It is just that my experience is that these members are not the norm. It has been my experience that most members just don't care. It is a non-issue.
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 From your statement I'm gonna go ahead and recommend some further reading. This should be a good start.Smith, GCompton, TQuinn, M.Newell,LBushman, RHale, B. (Released in Dec I think)And a bunch of Dialogue and Sunstone articles.Big UP!LamaniteI'm pretty well read now. My comment was that most members in my mormon walk don't know the details specifically. They don't venture down that road, they are living their religion in serving others, maintaining their family life etc. Me I'm obsessed with all things Mormon and it's history. Ever remember hearing the phrase "they studied their way out of the church", ? That's not me quite yet, but it's been a 5 or 6 year struggle that began with Joseph's polygamy and reading Compton's book.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Most LDS members don't even know about Joseph Smith's polygamy atleast not in my ward. And to discuss it outright, would bring dislike to anyone who tried.They may know more than you think. Many people have gone to the internet. Also, it is on lds.org that joseph was a polygamist.
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 They may know more than you think. Many people have gone to the internet. Also, it is on lds.org that joseph was a polygamist.But not the details, on LDS.org there is a site that shows the wives of the Presidents of the church. Go to Significant Events on each of the profiles and Joseph's shows Emma Smith only. Then go to Brigham Young's profile and Significant Events and it show no wives. This is the case for several more presidents until polygamy was no longer lived and then starts up again with naming their wives. I've brought this up on this board before, I'm a broken record.http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/leaders.jsp
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 They may know more than you think. Many people have gone to the internet. Also, it is on lds.org that joseph was a polygamist.CFR that it state's he was a polygamist. If you don't mind Why Me.
MiserereNobis Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) If the claims had any merit (and thats a big if ) then one could call into question Joseph's character and try to cast him as a crazed sexual deviant. Thats the anti's modus operandi anyway. Well, if Joseph Smith was a sexual deviant that would definitely call into question his character. And if his character is questionable, then he shouldn't receive all the praise and honor he does from Mormons.In Catholicism, we have had our share of popes who had questionable character (ah, the Borgias popes...). However, they are not sainted nor praised because of it. (though the Borgias did some beautiful things for the Vatican!)Also, it appears that the LDS church believes in a variation of Donatism, where the moral character of the priesthood holder would affect whether or not his priestly actions are valid. Is this correct? If so, I can see how pointing out Joseph Smith's alleged moral failings would, by the LDS's own logic, cast doubt on whether or not he was actually a prophet and if he could validly exercise the priesthood. Edited September 13, 2012 by PopeStPiusX
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I sent this question to a scholar and author and thought I would post it here as well to see what you guys thought. (Redacted for use here)Hi XXXX,Just reading something by J. Spencer Fluhman this morning. In his opening paragraph he writes, "the question of sexual contact with the youngest wives ignites controversy in print and across the Internet."In your opinion, why is Joseph's sexuality an issue that needs attention. What does this discussion offer as an award?If the reason for attention is the possible specter of adultery then I guess I understand. Adultery may call into question his Prophethood, so that may be a plausible explanation. Any other reasons?Does his dishonesty with Emma and others need attention and resolution more or less than his sexual practices? Does his dishonesty reflect the best efforts of a Prophet? (What I call dishonesty with Emma and others, other people call cautious and careful and private. At worst they call it secrecy.)Whenever you get a chance. Have a great day!Big UP!LamaniteWe will never know the entire truth...I will say never heard any outrage concerning his actions with 50+ year old women to whom he was sealed.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Ever remember hearing the phrase "they studied their way out of the church", ? That's not me quite yet, but it's been a 5 or 6 year struggle that began with Joseph's polygamy and reading Compton's book.When history is concerned we can study ourselves out of the church. Imagine studying the history of catholicism or protestantism? Or islam? Or US history from a critical point of view? Or Hinduism? All history is full of imperfections because history is made by human beings.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 CFR that it state's he was a polygamist. If you don't mind Why Me.http://www.lds.org/topics/polygamy-plural-marriage?lang=eng&query=polygamy+joseph+smith
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Well, if Joseph Smith was a sexual deviant that would definitely call into question his character. And if his character is questionable, then he shouldn't receive all the praise and honor he does from Mormons.We can only go on witnesses and these witnesses would be the women. Not one ever said a bad word about him and some did not continue in the church. In fact, I do think one of them became a nun. And yet, not one bad word about Joseph Smith and his actions. And women certainly know if a guy is in it for the action. I can only go by the women who were involved in the polygamy with him.Here is Agnes Coolbrith who left mormonism and moved to california after she married william pickett:Many years later, her marriage to Joseph Smith still shrouded in secrecy, Agnes wrote to her nephew, Joseph F. Smith: “I acknowledge none greater...than those that belong to the household of Joseph our Dear Dear Dear departed one Joseph...I could say many things to you...that I know and that has been told me by those that are dead and gone but perhaps you would not believe me no I know that you would not so it is best for me to keep silent”.Amazing, isn't it? Edited September 13, 2012 by why me
divinenature Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I think it is much more a concern about lying and dishonesty. The way Joseph went about polygamy is more of a concern than the actual polygamy.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I think it is much more a concern about lying and dishonesty. The way Joseph went about polygamy is more of a concern than the actual polygamy.i don't think so. i think that he was between a rock and a hard place. There is a reason why he waited several years after being married to fanny alger. He knew the consequences with emma. But what was he suppose to do? Either the wrath of god or the wrath of emma. You choose. 1
divinenature Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) i don't think so. i think that he was between a rock and a hard place. There is a reason why he waited several years after being married to fanny alger. He knew the consequences with emma. But what was he suppose to do? Either the wrath of god or the wrath of emma. You choose.I think that for many members the lying and dishonesty surrounding the polygamy issue is more of a problem that the polygamy itself (which many grow up knowing about). You can disagree and justify all you want. It doesn't make the pill easier to swallow.Emma had a right to informed consent.Joseph Smith starts to sound a lot like Bill Clinton during the Monica scandal. That bothers some people. Edited September 13, 2012 by divinenature
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