The Places You Will Go... Heaven And Hell And Their Impact On Crime

[Tacenda]

It is the God of every book of scripture.

Yes, alot of man made scripture. Do you think maybe, that hell, fire & brimstone is what was mentioned to keep people from sinning?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes, alot of man made scripture. Do you think maybe, that hell, fire & brimstone is what was mentioned to keep people from sinning?

Then why believe anything...there is a hell or not. This thread is not about me, but the question being is God cruel enough to do this to his children.

[Tacenda]

Then why believe anything...there is a hell or not. This thread is not about me, but the question being is God cruel enough to do this to his children.

Ok, then aliens made the world?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Ok, then aliens made the world?

Could be...we know it was not created in six days. Or it just happened. But let's stick to the topic, is there a lake of fire and if someone believes it, does it make a difference?

[DarkScythe]

God is a god of both mercy and justice. No matter what we choose in this life, it will effect the next one. So God is not sending us to hell because he is petty or cruel but our own actions send us there. Also conversely our own actions send us to heaven.

God can not force us to do anything because he geninuely cares.

[TAO]

I am not asking for others to feel as I do...I just have no use for an indifferent God.

How do you know God is indifferent?

I surly cannot teach others how good he is right now.

That be your choice. But you need to remember that trials aren't meant to be easy. They are meant to be hard.

[The Nehor]

It appears that hellfire and damnation might be an effective tool at taking a bite out of crime. So, as part of my civic duty, I would just like to let you all know there's a lake of fire awaiting you if you change lanes without signaling.

When you desire to instill belief as a tool of control you're doing the whole "truth" thing wrong.

That being said those who go to hell would rather cry with the sinners then laugh with the saints.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

God is a god of both mercy and justice. No matter what we choose in this life, it will effect the next one. So God is not sending us to hell because he is petty or cruel but our own actions send us there. Also conversely our own actions send us to heaven.

God can not force us to do anything because he geninuely cares.

We live in a world where we could never obey all his commands and most don't know what Christ did...the deck is stacked against us. He created hell and according to scripture will send us there, and it appears his anger can never be satisfied. That would make him the most evil of beings, and us better men.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That be your choice. But you need to remember that trials aren't meant to be easy. They are meant to be hard.

I was like this once...believing I had done something to suffer. Maybe I have...it would be nice to have an all powerful being tell my why. It would seem he cannot or will not...let's face it (to get back to the OP) most of us worship him because we fear him, if there is a "him".

[TAO]

I was like this once...believing I had done something to suffer. Maybe I have...it would be nice to have an all powerful being tell my why.

That's the point of the trials. You are expected to learn how to obey... without knowing why. You just know it's right... and you have to do it. It's a very difficult trial... but it's an essential one. We have to learn to take steps of faith.

It would seem he cannot or will not...let's face it (to get back to the OP) most of us worship him because we fear him, if there is a "him".

I don't.... and you can quote me on this - it would be stupid of me to believe in God simply out of fear.

Respect... now that's a decent motive. In fact, that's usually what God means when he says 'fear me'. He means... have some respect. That to me, is a fine thing.

But fear... no. There isn't a reason for me to fear. I must stand and live or die on my own precepts. To bend to fear would seem immoral to me, sort of. To bend to respect, now that is decent. To bend to kindness, that is even better. And to bend to what is right is the best.

That's why it's important to know God for yourself. You aren't about to be blowed about by every wind and doctrine. Instead, you know for yourself, what is right, even if it is difficult. Oftentimes, you even know why it is right. To me, this is the best stage I can be in. I don't rely on others to tell me what is fearing, respecting, and kind... instead, I learn it through my own experiences with God. And God has led me to know the truthfulness of this Church and has shown me it is the right one. And for that... for the time he spent to show me, I will be eternally grateful to him (to both the Father, and the Son, in fact).

[Calm]

He created hell and according to scripture will send us there, and it appears his anger can never be satisfied. That would make him the most evil of beings, and us better men.

This is not LDS doctrine.

The only reason we end up in hell is not because God's anger, but because we need to be cleansed of sin so that we can then enter into a glory for eternity living in happiness (whatever that is for any individual) and if we refuse to accept God's gift of the Atonement then we must do it on our own. But if we accept the Atonement then that condition no longer applies:

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

[ERayR]

There still remains the question in the OP...will a righteous God burn people forever, or punish themFor eternally? Even we are better than that. It is sad that man can be more compassionate than God.

Pa Pa this is not any description that I have heard from LDS sources. It sound more like an evangelical depiction. The LDS concept is that even the lesser glories will be better than what we are now experiencing. I know how pain and suffering can wear on you and when it happens to a loved one it is more so. I can tell you that at one point I got to the point of seriously thinking about taking someones life. Thank God I was brought out the other side of that one but it scares me to thing what I might be capable of. The only thing that saved me is that I knew what the live of God and Christ felt like and went looking for it so that I could get it back in my life. In these extremities one doesn't feel like praying but you must.

You are not alone in dark times but sometimes it sure feels like it but your not. I will do whatever I am able to do to help you. Just let me know.

[ERayR]

Pa Pa I read the standard platitudes offered and though the are true, in my case, it didn't help. Honestly the only thing that really helped me is praying that I could regain that feeling of love from God and Christ. A book that may help is "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Rabi Harold S Kushner. I am sure there is at least one article in an Ensign Magazine on this subject. Robert D. Hales has done several. See if you can find some solace in them.

My prayers are with you.

[Calm]

Pa Pa I read the standard platitudes offered and though the are true, in my case, it didn't help.

I think everyone has to find their own way, what helps one person is meaningless to another and even what helps at one time may not help at another. From what I've heard, I think the problem of suffering is why most of those who reject God have made this choice from the way they've described their view of the world and its meaning, OTOH times of suffering drive others to God. I have always wondered what made the difference, why some feel abandoned by God and therefore decide he must not exist because if God is good, he would never abandoned any of his creations/children and others see God's hand in the suffering as opportunities to learn more of Him....maybe not welcomed opportunities, but useful at least and ultimately very meaningful/purposeful.

I remember when my daughter was first diagnosed with diabetes, she was terribly angry with me because I was trying to help her feel better by pointing out we would be motivated to change our life in some significantly good ways and she yelled at me "You sound like you think this is a good thing!" She was sorrowing for the loss of her normal life and she needed the time to mourn rather than to feel optimistic about what life could be like. OTOH, the only way I survived those days was telling myself that good things could come of this horrible life sentence that she had been given. It is the same way with my own health issues, I have to view them as motivators for improvements in my life or I start to panic about what is going to be happening to me for the next 40 years or so (since the disorder gets worse over time I have lots of opportunities to look forward to.... ).

[Libs]

That's not the God I try to believe in. After my parents died, within months of the other. I read several books on NDE. One experience will stick with me forever. It was about a woman who had died and went to the other side and she noticed people were of different faiths, happily going on with their lives as they had left it on earth. Same religion, same family and friends etc. Just much better. She said that if you were a certain religion or faith you still had that faith. You were with your family, you didn't go to some unknown place with unknown people. Your faith stayed the same. Sorry I keep repeating that fact. So a very just God in this NDE. I wish I hadn't checked this book out of the library because I've forgotten the name of the book. But it's very convincing that we still move on and it gets better. No lake of fire etc.

Also, you're going to think this is strange. But here goes. I recently went to Sedona Arizona on vacation. They have all kinds of stores that are New Agey. My husband and friends went into a store that had Aura readings, I was tagging along in back at another store. And when I caught up to them they had had their auras read by placing their hands on a machine that reads auras or light. One of our friends aura color was red I believe and showed that he had alot of stress in his life etc. My husbands and the other gals I can't remember but when I did it, it showed pastel colors of greens and light blues. The woman told me, looked into my eyes and said that I had three people from the other side with me. She also said I would help people, alot of people through communicating. I thought well I'm a substitute teacher not a psychologist or counselor. But she told me very seriously these things. She hadn't told anyone else in our group something about people on the other side being with them.

I bought this little crystal angel to hold onto and meditate and feel of my parents. But have yet to do it. I'm a big skeptic and have even been skeptical about God since my faith crisis in the church. But I know I need to break out that angel and make a concerted effort to try and reach my parents and my God and even maybe my guardian angel.

Sorry so long, I just hope you get respite from everything you're going through. And knowing there is a beautiful life ahead for your mother and your family, it may help you get through this.

The experience you described on NDE was interesting. I've read a lot of those kinds of books, as well. There is even one out there about a woman who joined the LDS Church, because of a NDE she had. "I Stand All Amazed" by Elane Durham. Very interesting book.

It seems like most of the NDE's come, at least, somewhat from a person's expectation of what the afterlife is supposed to be (as you mentioned about the people who continued practicing their religion and earthly life). This is one of the reasons I have become a universalist, because I really do perceive that "heaven" is much bigger and more accepting, than most of us realize. I actually think we participate in creating it. Intelligence is extremely creative. So much so, that if someone believes in a dreadful hell of people burning in a lake of fire...they make get to experience that. But, God did not create it (IMHO). I remember a man who did experience that kind of hell, through an NDE. He came and spoke at our Baptist Church, when I was a teenager. He was "warning" folks that hell really did exist. I have since heard that he is not the only one who has had that kind of experience.

[Tacenda]

The experience you described on NDE was interesting. I've read a lot of those kinds of books, as well. There is even one out there about a woman who joined the LDS Church, because of a NDE she had. "I Stand All Amazed" by Elane Durham. Very interesting book.

It seems like most of the NDE's come, at least, somewhat from a person's expectation of what the afterlife is supposed to be (as you mentioned about the people who continued practicing their religion and earthly life). This is one of the reasons I have become a universalist, because I really do perceive that "heaven" is much bigger and more accepting, than most of us realize. I actually think we participate in creating it. Intelligence is extremely creative. So much so, that if someone believes in a dreadful hell of people burning in a lake of fire...they make get to experience that. But, God did not create it (IMHO). I remember a man who did experience that kind of hell, through an NDE. He came and spoke at our Baptist Church, when I was a teenager. He was "warning" folks that hell really did exist. I have since heard that he is not the only one who has had that kind of experience.

I think the NDE I described could, with alot of imagination, be similar to the way Lds believe. Because there are different levels or places I guess. And hell I think, could be a state of mind or having to relive the things you did, reserved for the very worst sinner such as mass murderers like Hitler for example.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa this is not any description that I have heard from LDS sources. It sound more like an evangelical depiction. The LDS concept is that even the lesser glories will be better than what we are now experiencing. I know how pain and suffering can wear on you and when it happens to a loved one it is more so. I can tell you that at one point I got to the point of seriously thinking about taking someones life. Thank God I was brought out the other side of that one but it scares me to thing what I might be capable of. The only thing that saved me is that I knew what the live of God and Christ felt like and went looking for it so that I could get it back in my life. In these extremities one doesn't feel like praying but you must.

You are not alone in dark times but sometimes it sure feels like it but your not. I will do whatever I am able to do to help you. Just let me know.

Maybe I will get over this someday, but right now I believe life is pointless...and for stating what I believe I am being punished. I believe Mormons are a great people because of what they believe...I just no longer believe. But it seems I will have to defend those I love on anti-Mormon sites. Again I think Mormons are a great people, and have loved my time here, but I am no longer welcome. Take care.

[TAO]

Maybe I will get over this someday, but right now I believe life is pointless...and for stating what I believe I am being punished.

How is one being punished?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

How is one being punished?

See my avatar...but like most things I guess I deserve it. Although I am not sure why others can say they do not believe and not be punished...but coming from me it seems to cause anger. I am not angry at anyone here. But as I have told many...this is not about me. Please follow the rules and address the OP.

[TAO]

See my avatar...but like most things I guess I deserve it. Although I am not sure why others can say they do not believe and not be punished...but coming from me it seems to cause anger. I am not angry at anyone here. But as I have told many...this is not about me. Please follow the rules and address the OP.

Is that the reason you are on limited? And are you sure that's the precise reason?

[ERayR]

I think everyone has to find their own way, what helps one person is meaningless to another and even what helps at one time may not help at another. From what I've heard, I think the problem of suffering is why most of those who reject God have made this choice from the way they've described their view of the world and its meaning, OTOH times of suffering drive others to God. I have always wondered what made the difference, why some feel abandoned by God and therefore decide he must not exist because if God is good, he would never abandoned any of his creations/children and others see God's hand in the suffering as opportunities to learn more of Him....maybe not welcomed opportunities, but useful at least and ultimately very meaningful/purposeful.

I remember when my daughter was first diagnosed with diabetes, she was terribly angry with me because I was trying to help her feel better by pointing out we would be motivated to change our life in some significantly good ways and she yelled at me "You sound like you think this is a good thing!" She was sorrowing for the loss of her normal life and she needed the time to mourn rather than to feel optimistic about what life could be like. OTOH, the only way I survived those days was telling myself that good things could come of this horrible life sentence that she had been given. It is the same way with my own health issues, I have to view them as motivators for improvements in my life or I start to panic about what is going to be happening to me for the next 40 years or so (since the disorder gets worse over time I have lots of opportunities to look forward to.... ).

Understood. I have never seen my dark time as good. It was something I went through and came out the other side. I don't even know if it made me stronger and I hope I never have an opportunity to find out. I only know that my testimony was stronger than what I was thinking about. I just hope I never have to test my testimony like that again.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Is that the reason you are on limited? And are you sure that's the precise reason?

Does it matter...if we keep talking about it I will be banned. Please speak to the OP.

[Tacenda]

Does it matter...if we keep talking about it I will be banned. Please speak to the OP.

Well let's start another OP so you won't get banned. I don't know why I'm still here. I should have got banned long ago for veering off the path on subjects. And because some on here reached out to help the topic got skillywampus. Pa Pa you've got to know people care about you I hope.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well let's start another OP so you won't get banned. I don't know why I'm still here. I should have got banned long ago for veering off the path on subjects. And because some on here reached out to help the topic got skillywampus. Pa Pa you've got to know people care about you I hope.

I know they do, but I have anger people in charge, so I must pay. I don't want to be banned from my friends...so please let's stop talking about it...I love this place and this people, and if I am to find my way back to believing it could be this place that does it. I have to believe that forgiveness is possible.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well let's start another OP so you won't get banned. I don't know why I'm still here. I should have got banned long ago for veering off the path on subjects. And because some on here reached out to help the topic got skillywampus. Pa Pa you've got to know people care about you I hope.

It is not allowed...please don't.