Are Mormons Christian: Continue The Discussion

[urroner]

For those who believe that works are not necessary:

Butt Prints In The Sand

One night I had a wondrous dream,

One set of footprints there was seen,

The footprints of my precious Lord,

But mine were not along the shore.

But then some stranger prints appeared,

And I asked the Lord, "What have we here?"

Those prints are large and round and neat,

"But Lord they are too big for feet."

"My child," He said in somber tones,

"For miles I carried you alone.

I challenged you to walk in faith,

But you refused and made me wait."

"You disobeyed, you would not grow,

The walk of faith, you would not know.

So I got tired, I got fed up,

and there I dropped you on your butt."

"Because in life, there comes a time,

when one must fight, and one must climb.

When one must rise and take a stand,

or leave their butt prints in the sand."

author unknown

[Robert F. Smith]

Rob Bowman, on 08 September 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

...

I agree with what you say here. In mainstream LDS doctrine, however, as taught by the General Authorities and as laid out in official LDS Church doctrinal curriculum manuals, doing good works is part of attaining individual salvation.

If you want to compare apples to apples, the individual salvation that you say LDS General Authorities speak of would be comparible to what traditional christianity would say is the reward each are given when we are judged by our works.

Hugh Nibley liked to say that "work we must, but the lunch is free," lecture given April 20, 1982, at the Cannon-Hinkley Club in Salt Lake City, and published in BYU Today (November 1982): 8–12; and Approaching Zion, Collected Works of Hugh Nibley 9:202-251, available online at http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=119 .

As I understand it, traditional christianity has only a pass/fail concept of "salvation". LDS, as you should already understand, have many different concepts that the term "salvation" can be applied to.

http://www.lds.org/t...vation?lang=eng

I can certainly understand why it would confusing for non-LDS to keep the different concepts straight when trying to compare doctrine.

Should we emphasize the difference between salvation and exaltation?

[Zeta-Flux]

I agree with what you say here. In mainstream LDS doctrine, however, as taught by the General Authorities and as laid out in official LDS Church doctrinal curriculum manuals, doing good works is part of attaining individual salvation.

This was answered by FlyOnTheWall very well, but I wanted to point out that I also addressed this in this post that apparently nobody even commented on.

[Robert F. Smith]

Bob,

. . . . . . .

That may have been more than you wanted to know, but in any case thanks for asking.

No, certainly not more, and very much what I wanted to know. Reminds me of my grandfather Smith, who was a good Methodist farm boy in Kansas over a century ago, who found himself in a small schoolhouse revival meeting and who came forward to accept Christ. Several colleges and universities later (including Ohio Wesleyan and Boston University School of Theology) he was an ordained Methodist minister who never made any real money, but who had the satisfaction of serving in many a pastorate, and who (together with a great wife) raised a family of five children, all of whom got master's degrees, and most of whom became caring school teachers. Only one of that great family is still with us, at age 94.

Reminds me also of my friend the late Rev. Wesley P. Walters, who decided at Johns Hopkins in the late 1940s to become a Presbyterian minister, and to specialize in ministering to the Jehovah's Witnesses and to the Mormons. Of course he also had his own congregation in Marissa, Illinois, but made a real contribution to Mormon historical research and writing. He had a great sense of humor, but was also a serious theologian, and I loved to hear him preach. His papers are on deposit at Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis (I was there doing research last year, and I was very well treated even though they knew I am Mormon). The St. Louis LDS Temple is just down the street from the Seminary, and I put in a half-day there as well.

Mormons need to understand the sincerity of you and other such men who are certainly not in it for the money, but who are generous and good-hearted men. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit is grieved, and from that forfend!!

[Glenn101]

My understanding of the LDS Doctrine on salvation is this. All of us are sinners. I don't think taht anyone LDS or Evangelical would dispute that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". (Romans 3:23)

We do not have the power to redeem ourselves from our own sins. Without the redemtion of Christ, there is nothing that we can do to earn eternal life. There are no amount of workds that we can do that will atone for our sins. But Christ did atone for our sins and all that live, have ever lived, and will yet live on this planet will be resurrected.

Yet, in additiona to all of the other things that Paul has said about faith and works, this is a little caveat that he inserts in Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

The LDS worship the same Christ that the evangelicals do. The Christ of the New Testament. But we do not pick up on a few of the words of Christ and the apostles for the totality of our Doctrine. We also believe that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4,4)

Glenn

[urroner]

Good grief. I don't say "Mormons are not Christians." I have repeatedly said this is not how I would state things. Why are you and so many other Mormons continuing to put these words in my mouth?

From [iRR site has temple content - sorry]

Mormonism cannot be accepted as Christian. There are irreconcilable differences between Mormonism and Christianity concerning the nature of Scripture, God, and Jesus Christ. The apparent similarities between the two systems quickly fade when LDS terminology is properly interpreted.

I love it when people in the IRR and other similar groups state that Mormonism is not a part of Christianity, then, out of the other side of their mouths, state that they don't know if individual Mormons are saved or not. I have been informed, over and over again, that only a Christian can be saved; only those that believe in the "true Christ" in this life, is saved.

Rob, do you agree with this, that only a true believer of Christ can be saved? If so, do you believe that a Mormon can be saved without unbecoming a Mormon or do they have to deny that Joseph Smith was called of God and that the BofM is also the word of God?

Edited September 9, 2012 by Ares

[Flyonthewall]

Hugh Nibley liked to say that "work we must, but the lunch is free," lecture given April 20, 1982, at the Cannon-Hinkley Club in Salt Lake City, and published in BYU Today (November 1982): 8–12; and Approaching Zion, Collected Works of Hugh Nibley 9:202-251, available online at http://maxwellinstit...scripts/?id=119 .

Should we emphasize the difference between salvation and exaltation?

When in interfaith dialogue, it would be helpful to emphasize the difference, otherwise we will be talking about apples, while they are talking about oranges.

[urroner]

When in interfaith dialogue, it would be helpful to emphasize the difference, otherwise we will be talking about apples, while they are talking about oranges.

Flyonthewall, you have it all backwards. Oranges are sweet and very uplifting, like the fruit on the tree of life. Apples are the downfall of mankind, just ask Eve. Mormons talk oranges and Evangelicals talk apples.

[Zeta-Flux]

Should we emphasize the difference between salvation and exaltation?

Yes. Otherwise we are talking past each other.

We don't do good works to be saved from death or hell. Even the sons of perdition are saved from those.

We don't do good works to be saved from the second death. Even the telestial are saved from that.

We do them to become more like Christ.

[shalamabobbi]

It might be more effective to point out that the 12-step program depends on participants admitting up front their dependency on this or that drug, that they cannot stop on their own, and that they need to depend on a higher power. They need to be humble and to find a helpful sponsor who has been there and knows the problem first-hand. This is also the road to success for the hopeful convert to Christ. It is active and repentant -- with fear and trembling, but also with great joy.

The purpose, if one is served on this board, is to grow and help others to grow. If all we do is slap each other on the back in a congratulatory manner we don't do much of anything. Rob ought to know with the existence of other threads that we accept that we are saved by grace. What I am trying to point out is that this does not conflict with individual works. That work is a privilege. That both coexist under a covenant relationship.

Even Rob tries to accomplish such a purpose by being here. I don't see him afraid to offend any of us. Attitude about obedience is key. Without it any program becomes too heavy to bear. Especially in light of D&C 58:42. Who *loves* Rob more, someone who accepts him as he is or someone who wishes for him to become something more than the patron saint of mediocrity..

[mfbukowski]

No, Rob, you teach a different Jesus. We teach the same Jesus.

Gee, what an easy argument! That sure clarifies matters!

Dang. You beat me to it!

Cheesh- around here, if you snooze, you lose!

[cassieblanca]

Rob,

Thanks for your excellent response! I agree with almost everything you said.

Evidently, there are some Mormons here that don't really understand your religion, since they are arguing for that very conclusion of being saved by works.

The way I understand it, the Bible teaches that there are things (works) that we are expected to do. These works do not save us, but we cannot be saved without them. They are a crucial part of demonstrating our faith. Without them, our faith is worthless. So I agree that we have to do our part. We have to do good works. Anyone who really knows the scriptures would know that our works can never save us... But our actions (works), whether good or bad, will always, always, either bring us closer to the Lord, or bring us away from Him. It is imperitave for us, if we have faith in the Lord, to choose to do those works that will bring us closer to Him, and if we make choices which pull us away from Him, then it is up to us to repent (which is an action - a work) and move ourselves closer to Him again.

It is impossible to accept the gift of God's grace without faith, because faith is the response to the offer of the gift, a response of trustful acceptance.

Good, then I understand that part correctly. And I agree.

Faith means trusting in God to do what we cannot do for ourselves. It means depending on him to save us despite our sinfulness. Such faith requires letting go of the illusion that we can make ourselves good enough for God and reaching out to God in humble acknowledgment of our helplessness (see Romans 5:6-8 )... Faith is gratefully and humbly accepting Christ's death on the cross for our sins as the payment for our failure to do and be all those things. Faith is accepting God's gift to us of Christ's goodness, holiness, love, faithfulness, and obedience, in which he is all of those things on our behalf. God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the sin offering on our behalf, taking our sin upon himself, allowing himself to be punished for the sin that we committed as if he were the guilty one instead of us, so that in turn we might, by our faith relationship with Christ, be considered by God perfectly righteous in his sight (2 Corinthians 5:21). Faith accepts and holds on to that gift.

This is an excellent explanation. I believe this too.

Faith is not working hard to keep all of the commandments and to make ourselves as good, holy, loving, faithful, and obedient as we can possibly make ourselves.... In a sense, it is an "anti-work," a disposition of trust in God's mercy and grace that frees us from the impossible task of trying to make ourselves righteous by our works.

I agree that the task of making ourselves righteous by our works, or saving ourselves by our works, would be an impossible task. But I disagree that faith is an anti-work. I believe the scripture that says "Faith without works is dead." I think faith *is* doing our best to keep all of the commandments because that is what the Lord has asked us to do. I think that since Jesus Christ showed His great love for us to the point of suffering and being crucified for all of our sins so that we could have a chance to be saved, the least we can do is to show our great love and admiration for His sacrifice by doing the best we can to do what He has asked us to do -- to do our best to be the person that He has asked us to be. Of course we will never succeed because we are human and we are imperfect and sinful by nature. But the least we can do is to show our love and faith in Him by trying.

Yes, of course the Lord has given us commandments, and of course he wants us to keep them. But he does not expect us to qualify for eternal life in his presence on the basis of our performance in keeping those commandments. If that were the standard, none of us would make it, because all of us have sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standard (Romans 3:23).

Well put! I believe this also.

I agree with what you say here. In mainstream LDS doctrine, however, as taught by the General Authorities and as laid out in official LDS Church doctrinal curriculum manuals, doing good works is part of attaining individual salvation.

Yes, and I believe it is, for the reasons I have described. It is the outward showing of our faith. As you said, we have to have faith that He can and will save us if we have faith in Him, because if it were up to us we could never ever be saved. But I believe that faith is more than that. I believe faith means that we follow Him in whom we place our faith. If our faith is in Jesus, we show that faith by following Him, by heeding His counsel and obeying His commandments. He doesn't expect us to keep them perfectly, thank goodness, because nobody could do it. But I don't think it's right to just not even try.

[mfbukowski]

Yes. Otherwise we are talking past each other.

We don't do good works to be saved from death or hell. Even the sons of perdition are saved from those.

We don't do good works to be saved from the second death. Even the telestial are saved from that.

We do them to become more like Christ.

I agree that this is the source of much confusion. We are clearly SAVED by grace- as a free gift that has nothing to do with works, in the sense of what traditional Christians think of as "salvation".

We could never do enough on our own to merit resurrection and immortality- indeed that is a free gift and applies universally.

Exaltation is another story, however. That requires repentance and doing the best we genuinely can. The way I put it simply is that we are saved by grace but rewarded for works. Nearly all (except the sons of perdition) are saved by grace, but it would not be just for those who have made major changes in their lives and have actively sought after a Christ-like life to be rewarded the same as those who made no attempt to become righteous.

So the simplest way of putting it, imo, is that we are saved by grace as a free gift, which we can never merit on our own. On the other hand, we are rewarded according to works.

In my opinion, that point of view and statement of our position unifies it all and indeed is a definition which virtually any Evangelical could agree with. I remember discussion exactly that point with a pastor from Calvary Chapel here in So Cal and indeed it was he who brought up scriptures about certain Christians having "jewels in their crown" where others might not merit such a reward.

To me that very phrase - on one hand the idea that we would have "crowns" at all in heaven, and that some might have more "jewels" than others - struck me as a very LDS way of seeing it.

[DBMormon]

Nope. We don't have the tablets, the originals were destroyed by Moses.

To be accurate there is not one word of canon that isn't man made.

You didn't specify that they were still existing and we had them in possesion. The ten commandments are cannon and being in their original form doesn't change that. They are cannon and are written by the hand of God, therefore your statement is false.

Edited September 9, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

That requires repentance and doing the best we genuinely can

Show me someone who does this? Who here does the absolute best they can. Did you go to bad instead of baking bread for the widows and orphans, did you stop to help the guy on the side of the road with his flat tire, did you give all you had in your pocket to the homeless guy? Did you leave work and go straight to the food kitchen to help feed the poor. Who used their vacation time to volunteer at needy causes instead of going to Disney. We will never expend our own best efforts nor will we ever do all we can do.

That Said I do believe that it should be the desire of our heart to get there. That we should be willing to try and to repent and to try again

Alam 24 :11 What is all we can do?

Alma 24:11

11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we coulddo (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

All we can do is repent and try again!

[DBMormon]

For those who believe that works are not necessary:

Butt Prints In The Sand

One night I had a wondrous dream,

One set of footprints there was seen,

The footprints of my precious Lord,

But mine were not along the shore.

But then some stranger prints appeared,

And I asked the Lord, "What have we here?"

Those prints are large and round and neat,

"But Lord they are too big for feet."

"My child," He said in somber tones,

"For miles I carried you alone.

I challenged you to walk in faith,

But you refused and made me wait."

"You disobeyed, you would not grow,

The walk of faith, you would not know.

So I got tired, I got fed up,

and there I dropped you on your butt."

"Because in life, there comes a time,

when one must fight, and one must climb.

When one must rise and take a stand,

or leave their butt prints in the sand."

author unknown

Nice poem, I may use this.

Also necessary as you mention is one thing and these works have merit is something different.

I agree they are necessary but I do not think they have merit.

[mfbukowski]

As a young adult, I definitely felt "called" by God, but I should make it clear that I don't consider that calling to be as an evangelist; .... I came to see my special calling the work of bringing sound exegetical and hermeneutical method along with sound theological reasoning to the task of engaging the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses and similar groups against the essential doctrines of orthodox Christianity (and more specifically evangelicalism, a subset of orthodox Christianity).

As you know, I have always been fascinated by the idea that on one hand Evangelicals do not believe in personal revelation, and yet on the other hand, they indeed seem to believe that they can be "called" by God to do certain things in their lives; and I have never fully understood how this is possible. It seems inconsistent to me.

Either we can and do receive individual guidance from God, or there is no more revelation to be had. I have trouble seeing how one can have it both ways.

.... Frankly, Mormonism is a far more complex subject than Jehovah's Witnesses or almost any other group I can name. The many twists and turns in LDS history, the heated controversies over practically every element of Joseph Smith's story, the lengthy works of the Book of Mormon and D&C and the complicated issues of how they relate to one another and to subsequent LDS doctrine, the diversity of opinions even among contemporary Mormons as to how all of this is to be interpreted -- it was a big task to sort through all of it. But I wanted to pursue it because I saw a need. I thought, and I still think, that I can make a useful contribution that will help evangelicals understand and address Mormon claims more fruitfully and that will help Mormons who are open to reexamining what they have been taught.

Perhaps the problem is that you believe that there are such things as "Mormon claims" at all, when you have had such a difficulty defining them. I would think that should be an indicator that indeed perhaps you are seeking for definitions which do not exist. The central "Mormon claim" is that we can receive personal revelation from God and that when we do so, those revelations will cohere with the beliefs of the church.

Indeed that is different from "Mormon claims" - what is claimed is that God will reveal these principles to you personally- no propositional claims need to be made, because God will reveal the church's beliefs to each individually. There is no set of claims- there are indeed 15 million people who believe that they individually have received coherent revelations which agree with each other in many important ways. That is the way I see it. We receive our own confirmations for each "claim" as you put it- which makes each "claim" a personal revelation, the meaning of which may differ slightly for each individual.

You are looking for a monolithic set of dogmas where one does not exist- that indeed is why you are having problems. Our personal revelations differ as much as Evangelical personal revelations do- not all Evangelicals have your "calling" as specified above- so perhaps it should not be so surprising that each of us grows according to what God teaches us individually. That is a fact that I think you tacitly admit, and is implied over and again in what you write, and yet I have often found your explanation of personal revelation unclear and ambiguous.

For me, as for many evangelicals, "calling" is found simply in recognizing a need that one can fill, stepping out to meet it, and finding that God gives us special gifts or blessings and various confirmations that what we are doing is a divine calling.

I would be interested in your description of these "various confirmations" and how these "confirmations" would differ from a Mormon "testimony" that their "calling" is to be a member of the Church of JCLDS, and more importantly, how WE who are Mormons can know that YOUR "confirmations" are correct while our "testimonies" are incorrect.

Edited September 9, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Show me someone who does this? Who here does the absolute best they can. Did you go to bad instead of baking bread for the widows and orphans, did you stop to help the guy on the side of the road with his flat tire, did you give all you had in your pocket to the homeless guy? Did you leave work and go straight to the food kitchen to help feed the poor. Who used their vacation time to volunteer at needy causes instead of going to Disney. We will never expend our own best efforts nor will we ever do all we can do.

The very best you can do includes filling the measure of your creation and HAVING JOY THEREIN

For me that includes recreation and family time, and time for true JOY. God does not want us to be robots {insert borg smiley here- it appears to have disappeared} but to have joy.

We all have to choose between many "good" things we could be doing at any given minute- but choice is part of life after all - isn't it?

[mfbukowski]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that there are no "Mormon Claims"- just a fairly vague set of doctrinal guidelines about which which we are invited to discover for ourselves that they work in our lives, precisely as stated in Alma 32.

In that respect, seeking after "Mormon Claims" is seeking after 17 million individual understandings of what the spirit has taught each individual. Good luck on that.

What do y'all think of this idea? Yea or nay?

[zerinus]

Nice poem, I may use this.

Also necessary as you mention is one thing and these works have merit is something different.

I agree they are necessary but I do not think they have merit.

They are both necessary and have merit. Ultimately God judges people by their works, and they are justified or not accordingly. Let's take a look at how Cornelius the Heathen was approved of God:

Acts 10:

1 There was a certain man in Cæsarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Here we have a heathen man who is “praying to God always”. So which God is he praying to? It wouldn’t be Jesus, and it wouldn’t be the Jewish God either. According to the Evs, he would be praying to “another God,” a false god, not the true God. And we find that the true God heard his prayers and answered them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

So Cornelius was approved (and justified) of God because of his works. That is what led to everything else. He first did the works, before anything else happened which took him a stage further. It is by works that we are approved of God, not faith alone; and ultimately it is by our works that we are judged. Evangelicalism is one of the biggest perversions and corruptions of the gospel that has ever been devised; and they will receive their just reward when the day of reckoning comes.

[ERayR]

Show me someone who does this? Who here does the absolute best they can. Did you go to bad instead of baking bread for the widows and orphans, did you stop to help the guy on the side of the road with his flat tire, did you give all you had in your pocket to the homeless guy? Did you leave work and go straight to the food kitchen to help feed the poor. Who used their vacation time to volunteer at needy causes instead of going to Disney. We will never expend our own best efforts nor will we ever do all we can do.

That Said I do believe that it should be the desire of our heart to get there. That we should be willing to try and to repent and to try again

Alam 24 :11 What is all we can do?

All we can do is repent and try again!

For one thing you misunderstand what works are required and what are good to do but not required. The required list is quite simple. It is simply to keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel and love our neighbors as ourselves. This means the saving ordinances must be performed by one having authority. Baking bread and fixing cars and helping move are all well and good and follow from the desire to be Christ like but are not the required ones

Edited September 9, 2012 by ERayR

[urroner]

For one thing you misunderstand what works are required and what are good to do but not required. The required list is quite simple. It is simply to keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel and love our neighbors as ourselves. This means the saving ordinances must be performed by one having authority. Baking bread and fixing cars and helping move are all well and good and follow from the desire to be Christ like but are not the required ones

While baking bread, fixing cars, and helping people move aren't commandment, I don't think that we will be able to return to God's presence if we refuse to do such things.

D&C 58:26

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore be receiveth no reward.

In my POV, God doesn't give us commandments to test us, rather He gives us commandments to teach us to abide by the principles these commandments are based upon. Some of these principles are to love the Lord with all our being and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Another is to love that when we are in the service of our neighbors, we are only in the service of our God. Another is to learn that we must be humble/poor in spirit and be wiling to subject ourselves to whatever God put us through and realize that we need His help.

Principle don't give us specifics on how to do them, they just tell us in broad general terms and when we learn to abide by these broad general principles, we will not only be living just the commandments but we will be abiding by God's will.

It like raising kids. When children are young, they have to be told to do everything and as they grow older, hopefully, they will learn to do understand what they should do and do it without being commanded to do so and they should be even more than the minimum expectations.

That is what I believe God is trying to do with us, but initially, we need the commandments to help teach us and we need to keep those commandments.

Edited September 9, 2012 by urroner

[mfbukowski]

They are both necessary and have merit. Ultimately God judges people by their works, and they are justified or not accordingly. Let's take a look at how Cornelius the Heathen was approved of God:

Acts 10:

1 There was a certain man in Cæsarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Here we have a heathen man who is “praying to God always”. So which God is he praying to? It wouldn’t be Jesus, and it wouldn’t be the Jewish God either. According to the Evs, he would be praying to “another God,” a false god, not the true God. And we find that the true God heard his prayers and answered them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

So Cornelius was approved (and justified) of God because of his works. That is what led to everything else. He first did the works, before anything else happened which took him a stage further. It is by works that we are approved of God, not faith alone; and ultimately it is by our works that we are judged. Evangelicalism is one of the biggest perversions and corruptions of the gospel that has ever been devised; and they will receive their just reward when the day of reckoning comes.

You know Z, we don't always agree. But I have to admit that is a very good argument. Except the last sentence. I think EV's will be judged along with their works and intents of their hearts, consistent in fact with your post.

For me that last sentence is inconsistent with the rest. Pagans are OK but EV's are not? I'm not buying that one.

[ERayR]

While baking bread, fixing cars, and helping people move aren't commandment, I don't think that we will be able to return to God's presence if we refuse to do such things.

D&C 58:26

In my POV, God doesn't give us commandments to test us, rather He gives us commandments to teach us to abide by the principles these commandments are based upon. Some of these principles are to love the Lord with all our being and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Another is to love that when we are in the service of our neighbors, we are only in the service of our God. Another is to learn that we must be humble/poor in spirit and be wiling to subject ourselves to whatever God put us through and realize that we need His help.

Principle don't give us specifics on how to do them, they just tell us in broad general terms and when we learn to abide by these broad general principles, we will not only be living just the commandments but we will be abiding by God's will.

It like raising kids. When children are young, they have to be told to do everything and as they grow older, hopefully, they will learn to do understand what they should do and do it without being commanded to do so and they should be even more than the minimum expectations.

That is what I believe God is trying to do with us, but initially, we need the commandments to help teach us and we need to keep those commandments.

I am not saying they are not important only pointing out that the required required works are the saving ordinances. If one has truly received those ordinances the rest will follow.

[urroner]

You know Z, we don't always agree. But I have to admit that is a very good argument. Except the last sentence. I think EV's will be judged along with their works and intents of their hearts, consistent in fact with your post.

For me that last sentence is inconsistent with the rest. Pagans are OK but EV's are not? I'm not buying that one.

I agree mfb. Evangelicalism isn't one of the biggest perversions and corruptions of the gospel that has ever been devised. I can think of a lot more things that are much worse, a hell of a lot worse than that. Jonestown of 1978 is so bad that Evangelicalism doesn't even approach it, not even from a far, far distance. Almost all Evangelicals i know love the Lord and are doing what they believe is their best.

We can not always tell what is in another's heart and why they do what they do. It is not our place to declare to God that another person is evil because we can not tell what is in their heart and we are told to be merciful and forgiving. I may not agree with somebody's beliefs or even their action, I may even consider their actions wicked, but I am not allowed to judge whether that person is or isn't wicked.