Mormon Materialism?

[inquiringmind]

I know Joseph Smith said that spirit is a finer, purer, more elastic form of matter, and a common assumption seems to be that Mormon Theology is wholly materialistic, but has any prophet ever said that intelligence is a form or property of matter?

And if we were intelligences before we were spirits (and only received spirit-bodies when we were born as spirit-children of Heavenly Father), doesn't that kinda imply that an intelligence is immaterial?

So, is Mormonism as radically materialistic as some say?

[mapman]

Interesting question. I guess it depends on who you ask. B. H. Roberts seemed to view intelligences as Cartesian minds, so he probably can't be described as a materialist. Orson Pratt believed spirits were made out of atoms of spiritual matter that is intelligent and Joseph Smith seems to have regarded spirits and intelligences as being the same thing, so they seem to be materialists.

[mfbukowski]

I know Joseph Smith said that spirit is a finer, purer, more elastic form of matter, and a common assumption seems to be that Mormon Theology is wholly materialistic, but has any prophet ever said that intelligence is a form or property of matter?

And if we were intelligences before we were spirits (and only received spirit-bodies when we were born as spirit-children of Heavenly Father), doesn't that kinda imply that an intelligence is immaterial?

So, is Mormonism as radically materialistic as some say?

D&C 93:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

[TAO]

Well to me, immaterial means it doesn't interact with matter... so I guess you could say we are purely materialistic... we believe everything interacts with something else =).

Not that it truly matters too much though. I guess it largely depends on the definition of immaterial.

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

[Cobalt-70]

And if we were intelligences before we were spirits (and only received spirit-bodies when we were born as spirit-children of Heavenly Father), doesn't that kinda imply that an intelligence is immaterial?

Well, Joseph Smith never taught that we were intelligences first, and then were born into "spirit bodies." That was Orson Pratt and Brigham Young. Smith taught quite the opposite, that a spirit is an intelligence, and that the spirit could never be born. Smith made no distinction between spirit and intelligence, and therefore, the intelligence would be comprised of spirit matter.

[mfbukowski]

Well, Joseph Smith never taught that we were intelligences first, and then were born into "spirit bodies." That was Orson Pratt and Brigham Young. Smith taught quite the opposite, that a spirit is an intelligence, and that the spirit could never be born. Smith made no distinction between spirit and intelligence, and therefore, the intelligence would be comprised of spirit matter.

I think you are right- and in fact, I think that is what D&C 93 implies though it is not all that clear. In many cases it seems that Brigham Young liked the idea of human reproduction played out on a cosmic level- we see it here, we see it in the Adam-God theory and how humankind came to be, and we see it in the case of the mechanism for the conception of Jesus.

I'm not saying he was right or wrong- or how we could know if he was or was not. All I am saying is that it seems he was partial to this kind of view.

But I think that materialism and a kind of naturalism, at least in principle, is a thread that runs throughout Mormonism and is one of the things which makes Mormonism unique.

Edited August 26, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Alvino]

I know Joseph Smith said that spirit is a finer, purer, more elastic form of matter, and a common assumption seems to be that Mormon Theology is wholly materialistic, but has any prophet ever said that intelligence is a form or property of matter?

And if we were intelligences before we were spirits (and only received spirit-bodies when we were born as spirit-children of Heavenly Father), doesn't that kinda imply that an intelligence is immaterial?

So, is Mormonism as radically materialistic as some say?

The interesting thing is that there are more options than these. For example, you could accept a physicalist ontology (that is, you say that all that exist are physical entities) but you can say that these physical entities sometimes arrange themselves to exhibit properties that are non-physical and not reducible to the physical. Psychological behaviors are one example of this type of non-physical property and still you can say what actually exists as "things" are physical things. This means that we might have non-physical minds but say that all that exists is the physical; might sound like a contradiction but minds are not "things" at all, they are properties of physical brains under this view.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Alvino

[Alvino]

inquiringmind:

I think this idea about Mormons believing in materialism is more of a word game than anything else.

Mormons have no idea what "material" means and when atheists say they are materialist they try to sound less out-worldly and say they are materialists, too, but when asked what they (Mormons) think matter is that composes spirits or minds they have no idea and just say it is something 'similar' to the matter we know today, something more 'pure or refined' (?).

[theplains]

Well, Joseph Smith never taught that we were intelligences first, and then were born into "spirit bodies." That was Orson Pratt and Brigham Young. Smith taught quite the opposite, that a spirit is an intelligence, and that the spirit could never be born. Smith made no distinction between spirit and intelligence, and therefore, the intelligence would be comprised of spirit matter.

Does that mean Jesus did not exist before he was born as the first spirit child of Heavenly Father? Or that he existed

as an eternal spirit (intelligence), who was later 'organized' into a spirit child, who later progressed into becoming a

God by following the commandments of his father?

Thanks,

Jim

[altersteve]

Does that mean Jesus did not exist before he was born as the first spirit child of Heavenly Father? Or that he existed

as an eternal spirit (intelligence), who was later 'organized' into a spirit child, who later progressed into becoming a

God by following the commandments of his father?

Thanks,

Jim

No to both questions. Jesus has never not existed and He has always been God (not just "a God").

Edited August 26, 2012 by altersteve

[mfbukowski]

inquiringmind:

I think this idea about Mormons believing in materialism is more of a word game than anything else. Consider it an unproven "theory" if you like which is proposed because of how well it coheres with all the rest of Mormon metaphysics.

Mormons have no idea what "material" means and when atheists say they are materialist they try to sound less out-worldly and say they are materialists, too, but when asked what they (Mormons) think matter is that composes spirits or minds they have no idea and just say it is something 'similar' to the matter we know today, something more 'pure or refined' (?).

Strongly disagree. The notion Joseph was expressing was that "there is no such thing as immaterial matter" and that spirit was matter, but of a type not yet fully understood.

The overall view is that the world is naturalistic and so is God himself, but we just don't have the science yet to understand it all.

The immanence of God and his existence as a perfected human with a perfected human body is basic and essential to Mormon metaphysics.

If you are saying that most Mormons don't fully appreciate what that means, though, I would agree. Again and again I see Neoplatonic metaphysics mixed in with Mormonism- and many Mormons want to believe that God is transcendent which is a sectarian notion which has no place in Mormonism. So in many ways contemporary Mormonism is a theological hodge-podge of inconsistent views.

I think McMurrin really understood that- he missed other important ideas in his understanding, in my opinion, but he was exactly right on the true metaphysical implications of Mormonism and how Mormons do not appreciate the strength of their positions if they were just to give up the transcendental and embrace the true humanism and materialism which runs through all of their positions.

Edited August 27, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Carborendum]

I don't think one can equate Joseph's early 19th century vocabulary with the 21st century scientific language. If so, you'd have to have a really odd view of the use of the word "power" in scriptures. Instead, we need to think of how a layman would have described things. Thus his use of the word "matter" and "immaterial" aren't necessarily equivalent to their current scientific counterparts.

I believe the knowledge often given to prophets are at levels so far beyond even them, that they find it difficult to describe using mortal language. For Joseph, learning about the nature of spirit and matter were pretty high level concepts. If our science doesn't even acknowledge "spirit", how can any revealed word directly coincide with our mortal understanding of the same?

There is no shame in saying we don't really understand this doctrine. And we probably never will except as revealed through the Spirit.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Carborendum

[mapman]

I don't think one can equate Joseph's early 19th century vocabulary with the 21st century scientific language. If so, you'd have to have a really odd view of the use of the word "power" in scriptures. Instead, we need to think of how a layman would have described things. Thus his use of the word "matter" and "immaterial" aren't necessarily equivalent to their current scientific counterparts.

I believe the knowledge often given to prophets are at levels so far beyond even them, that they find it difficult to describe using mortal language. For Joseph, learning about the nature of spirit and matter were pretty high level concepts. If our science doesn't even acknowledge "spirit", how can any revealed word directly coincide with our mortal understanding of the same?

There is no shame in saying we don't really understand this doctrine. And we probably never will except as revealed through the Spirit.

That's a good point. I think that it is also useful to see how Webster's 1828 defines matter (definition 3 is especially interesting):

1. Substance excreted from living animal bodies; that which is thrown our of discharged in a tumor,boil or abscess; pus; purulent substance collected in an abscess, the effect of suppuration more or less perfect; as digested matter; sanious matter.

2. Body; substance extended; that which is visible or tangible; as earth, wood, stone, air, vapor, water.

3. In a more general and philosophic sense, the substance of which all bodies are composed; the substratum of sensible qualities, though the parts composing the substratum may not be visible or tangible.

Matter is usually divided by philosophical writers into four kinds or classes; solid, liquid; aeriform, and imponderable. Solid substances are those whose parts firmly cohere and resist impression, as wood or stone; liquids have free motion among their parts, and easily yield to impression, as water and wine. Aeriform substances are elastic fluids, called vapors and gases, as air and oxygen gas. The imponderable substances are destitute of weight, as light, caloric, electricity, and magnetism.

4. Subject; thing treated; that about which we write or speak; that which employs thought or excites emotion; as, this is matter of praise, of gratitude, or of astonishment.

Son of God, Savior of men, thy name

Shall be the copious matter of my song.

5. The very thing supposed or intended.

He grants the deluge to have come so very near the matter, that few escaped.

6. Affair; business; event; thing; course of things. Matters have succeeded well thus far; observe how matters stand; thus the matter rests at present; thus the matter ended.

To help the matter,the alchimists call in many vanities from astrology.

Some young female seems to have carried matters so far, that she is ripe for asking advice.

7. Cause of any event, as of any disturbance, of a disease, or of a difficulty. When a moving machine stops suddenly, we ask, what is the matter? When a person is ill, we ask, what is the matter? When a tumult or quarrel takes place, we ask, what is the matter?

8. Subject of complaint; suit; demand.

If the matter should be tried by duel between two champions--

Every great matter they shall bring to thee, but every small matter they shall judge-- Ex.18.

9. Import; consequence; importance; moment.

A prophet some, and some a poet cry,

No matter which, so neither of them lie.

10. Space of time; a portion of distance.

I have thoughts to tarry a small matter.

Away he goes, a matter of seven miles--

[in these last senses,the use of matter is now vulgar.]

Upon the matter, considering the whole; taking all things into view. This phrase is now obsolete; but in lieu of it, we sometimes use, upon the whole matter.

Waller, with Sir William Balfour, exceeded in horse, but were, upon the whole matter, equal in foot.

Matter of record, that which is recorded, or which may be proved by record.

Personally, I favor a naturalistic approach and I think that that was what Joseph was trying to teach, but I've certainly been wrong before. I think that there is definitely lots of room for different opinions in this area.

[BCSpace]

What is matter? Never mind. What is mind? No matter.

[mfbukowski]

That's a good point. I think that it is also useful to see how Webster's 1828 defines matter (definition 3 is especially interesting):

Thanks for that! Highly relevant I think, especially that light, heat and magnetism were considered "matter".

Edited August 27, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Veles]

...

But I think that materialism and a kind of naturalism, at least in principle, is a thread that runs throughout Mormonism and is one of the things which makes Mormonism unique.

I would have a bibliography (books by recent lds apologist philosophers) about this issue, if possible...

[Nofear]

I think this idea about Mormons believing in materialism is more of a word game than anything else.

Mormons have no idea what "material" means and when atheists say they are materialist they try to sound less out-worldly and say they are materialists, too, but when asked what they (Mormons) think matter is that composes spirits or minds they have no idea and just say it is something 'similar' to the matter we know today, something more 'pure or refined' (?).

This comment is not without merit. We don't have any "scientific" model of spirit matter and so we are stuck purely in the realm of meta-physics. There one can say just about anything. Yet, I maintain that a "scientific" model is possible and that such a model can and will clearly be classified as material. There are significant obstacles to overcome (and I can tell you several attempts at models that don't work). Until we get out of the realm of meta-physics you're quite welcome to chide/mock (if you so choose) Mormonism's spirit matter... yet in the end the truth will out.

[Nofear]

I know Joseph Smith said that spirit is a finer, purer, more elastic form of matter, and a common assumption seems to be that Mormon Theology is wholly materialistic, but has any prophet ever said that intelligence is a form or property of matter?

And if we were intelligences before we were spirits (and only received spirit-bodies when we were born as spirit-children of Heavenly Father), doesn't that kinda imply that an intelligence is immaterial?

I personally think it is a mistake to assert that intelligent matter is the same thing as spirit matter. But that's partly because I believe in libertarian free will. From a materialistic perspective this would require that intelligent matter obey natural laws that are a radical departure from the laws that deterministic matter must follow (e.g. physical matter and I believe spirit matter).

Anyway, to repeat, the assumption that intelligent matter and spirit matter are the same thing is an unnecessary assumption (common enough in the Church membership though). May be true but we don't know yet. I don't believe it is.

[Vance]

What is interesting to me is that we live in a material world. ALL of our language and experience is in this material world. We have to use antonyms like IMmaterial to even begin to "describe" this purely philosophical concept that does NOT emanate from the scriptures.

[thesometimesaint]

From our own Kerry Shirts.

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/reisno.htm

[shalamabobbi]

[mfbukowski]

This was pretty much what I was trying to convey- well put!

But the reality is that the metaphysical implications are clear and run throughout Mormonism.

[mfbukowski]

I would have a bibliography (books by recent lds apologist philosophers) about this issue, if possible...

Unfortunately I am not the guy to ask for that, but this is a start. As a disclaimer- note that McMurrin eventually left the church- but that was not over his positions stated here. http://www.amazon.com/Theological-Foundations-Religion-Signature-Classics/dp/156085135X

[mfbukowski]

I personally think it is a mistake to assert that intelligent matter is the same thing as spirit matter. But that's partly because I believe in libertarian free will. From a materialistic perspective this would require that intelligent matter obey natural laws that are a radical departure from the laws that deterministic matter must follow (e.g. physical matter and I believe spirit matter).

Anyway, to repeat, the assumption that intelligent matter and spirit matter are the same thing is an unnecessary assumption (common enough in the Church membership though). May be true but we don't know yet. I don't believe it is.

I am not quite sure why you feel we need the dualism, and I am not sure I see the distinction between intelligence and spirit?

[mfbukowski]

From our own Kerry Shirts.

http://www2.ida.net/...tail/reisno.htm

In the good old days....