Evolution And Mormonism

[bu11fr0g]

I think it is easier to see the relation between donkeys, ponies, horses and zebras.

Frogs and princes are harder but jellyfish and asparagus are harder yet.

[Rob Osborn]

You don't need tautologies to prove that, just a testimony. But you need to acknowledge that it is a non-falsifiable religious idea and not scientific since science by its very presuppositions, ignores God.

Utter nonsense, hehe. We prove everyday, over and over, that intelligent processes are the direct result of intelligent processes preceding it. We also prove over and over that unintelligent processes are wholly incapable of producing anything other than unintelligent results. Scientists fail time and time again trying to make life out of nonliving and nonintelligent processes. All they have proven, and set in solid stone, is the simple fact that intelligent things such as life itself is not a product of non intelligent actions. Its truly a scientific fact that anything that ends up having intelligent signatures were caused by intelligent processes. There is no need to infer God in this scientific fact.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Rob Osborn

[ERayR]

I think it is easier to see the relation between donkeys, ponies, horses and zebras.

Frogs and princes are harder but jellyfish and asparagus are harder yet.

Work with what you find comfortable but please don't look very far afield.

[Rob Osborn]

Intelligent information only comes from an intelligent source.

Intelligent information, intelligent processes are the product of an intelligent source.

Beautiful circularity!

Is a virus intelligent information?

Is a prion?

If i set up a random process with selection to identify a DNA molecule that can interact, does this count as intelligence?

Does the immune response to a virus count as intelligent?

How about if the immune system attacks the person it is part of ( autoimmune)

Is the beauty of the stars at night intelligent?

Are the laws of physics intelligent?

Are the songs of birds?

We all know what is intelligent information and what isnt. We can all agree that life in all of its vast degrees are the direct product of intelligent processes. If you cant agree with that then there is no point to discuss.

[bu11fr0g]

If viruses are the direct result of intelligent design why did God create smallpox?

[bu11fr0g]

In many respects, humans and chimpanzees are more closely related than horses and zebras. Fertilization is the most prominent exception.

Humans and chimpanzees are more related to each other than either is to monkeys.

[Bikeemikey]

I propose that in the next few hundred years there will eventually be as many people who believe Humanity was placed here by advanced space aliens as believe in the creation story of adam and eve... possibly that belief will come a new rival to evolution (ironically it is still the Adam and Eve creation myth just with space ships).

Humanity will create artificial life...

Then We will create truly human engineered biological life...

We will travel through out the universe taking this engineered life with us...

At this point humanity would be able to create populates worlds with out end with "children" of our own creation.

It will be obvious that if we can do it someone in the universe could have done it before us...

It would be logical to conclude that we may very well be the product of some such "creation"...

Prometheus anyone?

Finally the perfect merging of religion and science fiction... God with the force and a light saber sound appealing to anyone?

[mfbukowski]

I propose that in the next few hundred years there will eventually be as many people who believe Humanity was placed here by advanced space aliens as believe in the creation story of adam and eve... possibly that belief will come a new rival to evolution (ironically it is still the Adam and Eve creation myth just with space ships).

Humanity will create artificial life...

Then We will create truly human engineered biological life...

We will travel through out the universe taking this engineered life with us...

At this point humanity would be able to create populates worlds with out end with "children" of our own creation.

It will be obvious that if we can do it someone in the universe could have done it before us...

It would be logical to conclude that we may very well be the product of some such "creation"...

Prometheus anyone?

Finally the perfect merging of religion and science fiction... God with the force and a light saber sound appealing to anyone?

http://transfigurism.org/pages/about/transhumanist-declaration/

Transhumanist Declaration

1. Humanity stands to be profoundly affected by science and technology in the future. We envision the possibility of broadening human potential by overcoming aging, cognitive shortcomings, involuntary suffering, and our confinement to planet Earth.
   
2. We believe that humanity’s potential is still mostly unrealized. There are possible scenarios that lead to wonderful and exceedingly worthwhile enhanced human conditions.
   
3. We recognize that humanity faces serious risks, especially from the misuse of new technologies. There are possible realistic scenarios that lead to the loss of most, or even all, of what we hold valuable. Some of these scenarios are drastic, others are subtle. Although all progress is change, not all change is progress.
   
4. Research effort needs to be invested into understanding these prospects. We need to carefully deliberate how best to reduce risks and expedite beneficial applications. We also need forums where people can constructively discuss what should be done, and a social order where responsible decisions can be implemented.
   
5. Reduction of existential risks, and development of means for the preservation of life and health, the alleviation of grave suffering, and the improvement of human foresight and wisdom should be pursued as urgent priorities, and heavily funded.
   
6. Policymaking ought to be guided by responsible and inclusive moral vision, taking seriously both opportunities and risks, respecting autonomy and individual rights, and showing solidarity with and concern for the interests and dignity of all people around the globe. We must also consider our moral responsibilities towards generations that will exist in the future.
   
7. We advocate the well-being of all sentience, including humans, non-human animals, and any future artificial intellects, modified life forms, or other intelligences to which technological and scientific advance may give rise.
   
8. We favour allowing individuals wide personal choice over how they enable their lives. This includes use of techniques that may be developed to assist memory, concentration, and mental energy; life extension therapies; reproductive choice technologies; cryonics procedures; and many other possible human modification and enhancement technologies.
   

1. 
   

[Rob Osborn]

If viruses are the direct result of intelligent design why did God create smallpox?

Lucifer is a product of God but does that mean God created evil? If God is immortal why are we not? Its obvious at least from the theological angle that an interesting byproduct of intelligence is choice and how that "choice" has a drastic causal effect on its creation.

[cdowis]

If viruses are the direct result of intelligent design why did God create smallpox?

I do not understand your question.

God "created" smallpox the same way he created mosquitoes. He created a Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were cast out of that perfect creation and placed in a world which has mosquitoes, weeds, and smallpox, as well as flowers, lakes and apple trees.

We find perfection only in the next life, depending on the choices we make here in this life. This world is a testing ground, not a nursing home.

[cdowis]

del

Edited March 6, 2013 by cdowis

[Bikeemikey]

http://transfigurism.org/pages/about/transhumanist-declaration/

1. 
   

Do they ask for 10%? Maybe I should join them!!

[bcuzbcuz]

The fingerprints of humans are very similar to, and can be easily confused with, the fingerprints of Koala bears and/or chimpanzees. The crime rate amongst Koala bears is, however, quite low.

[ERayR]

The crime rate amongst Koala bears is, however, quite low.

Have you ever lived in an area heavily populated by Koala bears?

[cdowis]

They can be very deceptive -- sitting in a tree and pretending that they are chewing on leaves. I suggest that you don't turn your back on them if you live in an area infested with them.

[mfbukowski]

Have you ever lived in an area heavily populated by Koala bears?

:rofl:

[thesometimesaint]

I believe in crocoduck.

You are free to believe that. But that belief is hard to support.

[ERayR]

You are free to believe that. But that belief is hard to support.

Not at all. Just gather up a few bones from here and there and put them together and PRESTO.

[thesometimesaint]

You keep repeating this like a catechism but you yourself impart a difference when you attribute changes to time that does not happen in micro-evolution. The transmutation of species does not happen at the micro level but you assert it for the macro level.

A princess kisses a frog and it turns into a prince equals a fairy tale.

A princess kisses a frog for a million years and frog turns into a prince equals scientific explanation.

All that evolution says is that living organisms either adapt to an environment or die out. At some point in that adaptation a genetically isolated group may become so different as to not be able to reproduce with the parent group.

Huh?

[ERayR]

All that evolution says is that living organisms either adapt to an environment or die out. At some point in that adaptation a genetically isolated group may become so different as to not be able to reproduce with the parent group.

Huh?

You make it all sound so benign but that is not how it is practiced.

[mfbukowski]

Do they ask for 10%? Maybe I should join them!!

LOL- They are Mormons, for the most part I think!

[mfbukowski]

All that evolution says is that living organisms either adapt to an environment or die out.

Whatever lives, lives. Whatever dies, dies.

That was kind of Popper's point- it's kind of a tautology really. I think he never really rejected that position though he made some politically correct statements which were so ambiguous you couldn't tell what he was actually thinking.

[bcuzbcuz]

Not at all. Just gather up a few bones from here and there and put them together and PRESTO.

In a museum in Edinburgh, Scotland, such an animal can be observed. It was purported to be a trout from Canada that had adapted to the freezing cold waters of that land, sent to Scotland sometime in the 1800's. In its display case sits a marvelous example of the stuffed, taxidermist prepared, unknown species of trout, with typical head and tail fins, along with regular gills and side fins, but the rest of the fish is coated in a luxurious fur coat.

You can find several pictures online.

They still display the trout, as a reminder both for themselves and visitors, that some people get a kick out of "gather up a few bones from here and there and put them together and PRESTO".

And there are always knowledgable people who get an even bigger kick out of uncovering such fakes. If paleaontologists just threw some bones together to invent animals it would be uncovered, and gloriously exposed for all to see. Careers could be made, and others destroyed. It would be a marvelous battle. The crowd would go wild.

When was the last time you heard of such a "knock down, drag 'em out" match?

[thesometimesaint]

Whatever lives, lives. Whatever dies, dies.

That was kind of Popper's point- it's kind of a tautology really. I think he never really rejected that position though he made some politically correct statements which were so ambiguous you couldn't tell what he was actually thinking.

As far as evolution is concerned those that reproduce win. Last I heard we don't have many examples of once living, but now dead, organisms reproducing. I could be wrong though.

[thesometimesaint]

In a museum in Edinburgh, Scotland, such an animal can be observed. It was purported to be a trout from Canada that had adapted to the freezing cold waters of that land, sent to Scotland sometime in the 1800's. In its display case sits a marvelous example of the stuffed, taxidermist prepared, unknown species of trout, with typical head and tail fins, along with regular gills and side fins, but the rest of the fish is coated in a luxurious fur coat.

You can find several pictures online.

They still display the trout, as a reminder both for themselves and visitors, that some people get a kick out of "gather up a few bones from here and there and put them together and PRESTO".

And there are always knowledgable people who get an even bigger kick out of uncovering such fakes. If paleaontologists just threw some bones together to invent animals it would be uncovered, and gloriously exposed for all to see. Careers could be made, and others destroyed. It would be a marvelous battle. The crowd would go wild.

When was the last time you heard of such a "knock down, drag 'em out" match?

Also include the infamous Piltdown Man. The funny thing about the whole episode is that when scientists were allowed to actually study it. The whole fraud fell apart. http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/science-of-natural-history/the-scientific-process/piltdown-man-hoax/