Book Of Mormon Geography 101

[poulsenll]

Some of you newbies interested in BofM geography may find the information in this topic of interest.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/17985-mapping-the-book-of-mormon-in-the-americas/

There is a companion topic containing disscussion by members of the board.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/52118-book-of-mormon-geography-101/

Larry P

[cesc101]

Some of you newbies interested in BofM geography may find the information in this topic of interest.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/17985-mapping-the-book-of-mormon-in-the-americas/

There is a companion topic containing disscussion by members of the board.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/52118-book-of-mormon-geography-101/

Larry P

Great point to begin indeed - even though i am searching for threads on BOM Temple practices (esp. when compared with the OT) - thanks anyway.

[Freedom]

I strongly advise that students of the Book of Mormon create their own geographies before getting tainted by what others have produced. It is a bit time consuming but it is relatively easy. I made a list of all references to direction and of all geographical locations. When I came up with my own map i compared it with others and discovered where the guessing is taking place.

[ANACO]

I'm very interested in what Joseph Smith had said or implied about geography which indicated the Prophet didn't understand or was ambiguous about until he encountered a popular book of travels.

"What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history. Until he encountered the Stephens's book, Joseph gave no hint that he was aware that such a limited area with a distinctive civilized culture even existed in the Americas. Even with Stephens's material in mind, he made no more than a passing attempt to relate the Book of Mormon's story to the newly-found ruins. And in the long run, the little blip on the Latter-day Saints' mental screen caused by the explorer's book faded as the mistaken folk view reasserted its dominance."

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=41&chapid=196

Could some LDS Scholars help with what these idle words were, of which the Prophet Joseph spake or implied about geography, that indicated he did not understand or was ambiguous about - and which was a mistaken folk view on the part of the Prophet, Seer and Revelator who has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world?

Kind regards.

[Brant Gardner]

Could some LDS Scholars help with what these idle words were, of which the Prophet Joseph spake or implied about geography, that indicated he did not understand or was ambiguous about - and which was a mistaken folk view on the part of the Prophet, Seer and Revelator who has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world?

It sounds like, from your statement here, that you believe that Joseph always knew everything about Book of Mormon geography and was never influenced by any other people or writings. If that is the case, would you please explain why that might be so? If not, then the entire idea of the development of his understanding is open to the interpretation of his statements over time--which indicate that he was very willing to entertain lands that were not originally part of his understanding.

[cesc101]

I strongly advise that students of the Book of Mormon create their own geographies before getting tainted by what others have produced. It is a bit time consuming but it is relatively easy. I made a list of all references to direction and of all geographical locations. When I came up with my own map i compared it with others and discovered where the guessing is taking place.

Am happy you, but you see those of us (newbies as the OP indicated), who don't have your set of skills wouldn't mind a push in the right direction - so as to see what lies beneath our very nose.

[livy111us]

Anaco seems to forget that Joseph Smith was "influenced" by Josiah Priests book American Antiquities when he made statements which placed The BOM in North America. He, again, is trying to make an argument against a mesoamerican geography without having his facts straight.

Edited August 11, 2012 by livy111us

[ANACO]

It sounds like, from your statement here, that you believe that Joseph always knew everything about Book of Mormon geography and was never influenced by any other people or writings. If that is the case, would you please explain why that might be so? If not, then the entire idea of the development of his understanding is open to the interpretation of his statements over time--which indicate that he was very willing to entertain lands that were not originally part of his understanding.

Martin Harris visited with two professors to determine the truth of the Prophet's words. That was in 1830, years before Joseph Smith received Stephen's travel book in 1842. Why then did Martin Harris not discover that Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about in regards to geography?

Kind regards

[ANACO]

Anaco seems to forget that Joseph Smith was "influenced" by Josiah Priests book American Antiquities when he made statements which placed The BOM in North America. He, again, is trying to make an argument against a mesoamerican geography without having his facts straight.

That's an argument used by, so-called, anti-mos. Dr. Coe doesn't agree with the LGT region, yet, he's alluded to being uniformed and worse - by some - as an anti-mo. On the other hand, Josiah Priest agrees with another region, and its claimed Joseph Smith plagiarized from his writings.

The truth is the truth. Is there a reason why Josiah Priest could not come to a conclusion about the truth of a geographical region, independently from the Book of Mormon?

[theplains]

I'm very interested in what Joseph Smith had said or implied about geography which indicated the Prophet didn't understand or was ambiguous about until he encountered a popular book of travels.

They were ambiguous on some parts of the geography but the location for the Hill Cumorah was well thought of and taught.

See http://www.archive.o...encereport1928a and some scanned pages from Doctrines of Salvation

:

Regards,

Jim

[livy111us]

You fail to realize that the same argument you are using against the Mesoamerican theory can be used against the Great Lakes theory. But if thats what you need to dismiss the Prophets statements, then by all means.

[ANACO]

You fail to realize that the same argument you are using against the Mesoamerican theory can be used against the Great Lakes theory. But if thats what you need to dismiss the Prophets statements, then by all means.

That's incorrect.

Any Great Lakes or North America theory does not claim the Prophet Joseph Smith did not know what he was speaking of. It's only the LGT that claims Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about up until 2 years before his death and anything he had said prior was false - all because he received Stephen's travel book gifted to him by an LDS Bishop in New York. Is that the order of the Priesthood for LDS Bishops to receive revelation for the Prophet and for the Church? Hardly.

Then the LGT claims it all occurred in a 500 x 200 mile area. Any quotes about Central America you are alluding to are from the Times and Seasons. But the Times and Season also mentions archaeological discoveries in North America as evidence for the Book of Mormon, statements completely ignored by LDS Apologists for the LGT, which precludes that the Prophet did know what he was speaking of, and of an area larger than 500 x 200 miles.

Critics, and apostates, contend Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon based on the Spalding manuscript - which is incorrect. Similarly, you claim Joseph Smith based his knowledge of Book of Mormon geography incorrectly from Josiah Priest's writings. You're using anti-mo, arguments.

This is also hypocritical, because while you claim Joseph Smith learned incorrect Book of Mormon geography from Josiah Priest's writings, you also claim it was from another book, that of John Lloyd Stephen's, which the Prophet learned the correct geography. You have to pit Priest against Stephens - making the Prophet Joseph Smith out to be some idiot who couldn't make up his mind about geography over their books which he was aware of.

You have to belittle statements by the Prophet Joseph Smith, you have to belittle that he was a Prophet and received revelation on the matter - the location of the New Jerusalem, Cumorah mentioned in the D&C - you even have to resort to claiming Joseph Smith learned geography from books, Priest's and Stephen's - and then spend your efforts over the latter being the correct one. It's bogus.

That's LGT 101 - Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about regarding Book of Mormon geography, up until two years before he was killed - due to a travel book he had received about the Maya. And everything he had said up to that point indicates he didn't understand or was ambiguous about the subject.

And I learned all this from reading articles at NAMI and FAIRLDS.

Respectfully

Edited August 12, 2012 by ANACO

[The Nehor]

(Spoiler Alert)

It all took place in Antarctica which God sees as part of America. Cureloms are penguins and cumoms are seals. Glad I could help.

[ANACO]

(Spoiler Alert)

It all took place in Antarctica which God sees as part of America. Cureloms are penguins and cumoms are seals. Glad I could help.

Quite logical. Just as logical at the LGT being in Central America based on a narrow neck of land. Antarctica has one too, under it's ice.

And if we can simply compare the Nephites to the Maya, why not to penguins? Thus, Nephites wore tuxedos.

This is the basis for the LGT - a narrow neck of land. And anything that contradicts it, must be punished - including Joseph Smith.

You helped more than you know! LOL!

[Freedom]

Am happy you, but you see those of us (newbies as the OP indicated), who don't have your set of skills wouldn't mind a push in the right direction - so as to see what lies beneath our very nose.

it does not take that much skill really. The problem with getting pushed in the right direction is that the author gets to determine if the direction is right or not and you are left to just assume all is well.

AMNIHU

Alma 2:15 came upon the hill Amnihu, east of the river Sidon, Which ran by the land of Zarahemla,

ANTI-ANTI

Alma 21:11 came over to a village which was called Ani-Anti,

ANTIONUM

Alma 31:3 Antionum (location of the Zoramites), east of the land of Zarahemla, nearly bordering the seashore, south of the land of Jershon, which also bordered upon the wilderness south,

Alma 43:15 armies of the Lamanites in the land of Antionum, , the armies of the Nephites were prepared to meet them in the land of Jershon.

Alma 43:22 leaving Anitonum, journeyed ‘roung about’ toward the the head of the river Sidon toward Manti

Antum

Mormon 1:3 go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited

BOUNTIFUL

Alma 22:29 Lamanites on the east by the seashore, the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

Alma 22:31 the land northward (Desolation), the land southward (Bountiful), the wilderness filled with wild, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

Alma 22:32 1 ½ days journey from Bountiful to Desolationthe

Alma 22:33 the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, Alma 50:11 Nephites possessed all the land which was northward of the land Bountiful,

Alma 51:30 Amalickiah prevented from taking possession of Bountiful, and the land northward.

Alma 51:32 Teancum’s army pitched their tents in the borders of the land Bountiful; and Amalickiah did pitch his tents in the borders on the beach by the seashore

Alma 52:9 fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and have power to harass them on every side.

Alma 52: 17 Bounrtiful near Melek

Alma 55:26 he had fortified the city Gid and took the prisoners to the city Bountiful

Alma 63:5Hagoth built a large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

Helaman 1:23 marched north from Zerahamla to Bountiful toward the land norhtward

CUMORAH

Mormon 6:2 gather our people in land of Cumorah by hill of Cumorah

Mormon 6:4 Cumorah a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains

Mormon 6:6 record made out of plates of Nephi (save it were these few plates given to Moroni) buried in Hill Cumorah

Mormon 8:2 after the battle at Cumorah the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

Ether 15:11 Hill Ramah and hill Cumorah same hill

LAND SOUTH AND LAND NORTH

Omni 1:22 and their (Jaradites) bones lay scattered in the land northward.

Alma 22:31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, animals migrate from land northward to bountirul for food

Alma 50:29 the land northward was covered with large bodies of water

Alma 56:22 Nephites had cities in the land Northward

Alma 63:4 5,400 men with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward.

Alma 63:7, 10 went by ship to the land northward

Alma 63:10 Corianton had gone forth to the land northward in a ship, to carry forth provisions unto the people who had gone forth into that land. (lack or resources in land northward)

Helaman 3:3 contention and many dissensions causing many to leave Zarahemla for the land northward

Helaman 3:8 population growth led to migration from the land southward to the land northward, covering the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.

Helaman 3:9 very few trees in the land northward, people lived in tents and cement houses

Helaman 3:10 timber, scarce in the land northward, was shipped from the south

Helaman 6:6 Lamanite teachers with Nephi and Lehi teach in the land northward

3 Nephi 3:24 gathered in the land southward, because of great curse in the land northward.

3 Nephi 8:12 more destruction in the land northward, the whole face of the land was changed,

Mormon 2:20 Nephites, hunted and driven, fled to the land called Shem

Mormon 2:29 And the Lamanites did give unto us the land northward, yea, even to the narrow passage which led into the land southward. And we did give unto the Lamanites all the land southward.

3 Nephi 8:11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

Ether 9:32 there were some which fled into the land southward.

Ether 10:19 for the land southward was covered with animals of the forest.

Ether 10:21 preserved the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

[cesc101]

(Spoiler Alert)

It all took place in Antarctica which God sees as part of America. Cureloms are penguins and cumoms are seals. Glad I could help.

I just got knocked down by this revelation, am sure i won't get up until i share it: Hill Cumorah is in Africa. ANGOLA.

There!

I gave everyone revelation. Right?

Do i really need revelation to see that LGT doesn't fit? Maybe i need google use in 400AD.

[cesc101]

Thank you very much Freeman, even though you're (ironically) my "author" (in this post). Now, i will just follow your "road map" till i can (on my own) come up with my own BOM geography - no need to reinvent the wheel.

That being said, am not a mesoamerican expert - just love to study the BOM - but i believe (given the climatic conditions described in the BOM), the BOM geography fits the mesoamerican setting more.

[Brant Gardner]

(Spoiler Alert)

It all took place in Antarctica which God sees as part of America. Cureloms are penguins and cumoms are seals. Glad I could help.

I'm sorry, but I think you are just completely wrong. Cureloms were seals and cumoms were penguins. I don't know how you could make such a simple mistake.

[robuchan]

I strongly advise that students of the Book of Mormon create their own geographies before getting tainted by what others have produced. It is a bit time consuming but it is relatively easy. I made a list of all references to direction and of all geographical locations. When I came up with my own map i compared it with others and discovered where the guessing is taking place.

This is a good idea. I was thinking of doing this. Is there a resource for getting a list of all directional/geographic statements from the BOM text? Preferably one compiled by a completely neutral person who wouldn't ignore anything that might go against their pet theory.

[Brant Gardner]

Martin Harris visited with two professors to determine the truth of the Prophet's words. That was in 1830, years before Joseph Smith received Stephen's travel book in 1842. Why then did Martin Harris not discover that Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about in regards to geography?

Kind regards

This is an interesting occasion to bring up concerning geography. The topic was translation, not geography, and there is no record of anything that was said that dealt with geography. Certainly Anthon didn't (at least afterwards) confirm anything Joseph had done.

However, that occasion did provide a possible influence over the interpretation of why the NY hill might have been thought to be Cumorah. It was already assumed that such an event had happened, and one of the strongest proponents was the man that Harris visited before he went to Anthon. See http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=20&num=2&id=609.

[Brant Gardner]

The truth is the truth. Is there a reason why Josiah Priest could not come to a conclusion about the truth of a geographical region, independently from the Book of Mormon?

He certainly could. However, if you believe that Josiah Priest's book really contains historical truth, then we have another serious difference to resolve.

[robuchan]

it does not take that much skill really. The problem with getting pushed in the right direction is that the author gets to determine if the direction is right or not and you are left to just assume all is well.

AMNIHU

Alma 2:15 came upon the hill Amnihu, east of the river Sidon, Which ran by the land of Zarahemla,

ANTI-ANTI

Alma 21:11 came over to a village which was called Ani-Anti,

ANTIONUM

Alma 31:3 Antionum (location of the Zoramites), east of the land of Zarahemla, nearly bordering the seashore, south of the land of Jershon, which also bordered upon the wilderness south,

Alma 43:15 armies of the Lamanites in the land of Antionum, , the armies of the Nephites were prepared to meet them in the land of Jershon.

Alma 43:22 leaving Anitonum, journeyed ‘roung about’ toward the the head of the river Sidon toward Manti

Antum

Mormon 1:3 go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited

BOUNTIFUL

Alma 22:29 Lamanites on the east by the seashore, the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

Alma 22:31 the land northward (Desolation), the land southward (Bountiful), the wilderness filled with wild, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

Alma 22:32 1 ½ days journey from Bountiful to Desolationthe

Alma 22:33 the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, Alma 50:11 Nephites possessed all the land which was northward of the land Bountiful,

Alma 51:30 Amalickiah prevented from taking possession of Bountiful, and the land northward.

Alma 51:32 Teancum’s army pitched their tents in the borders of the land Bountiful; and Amalickiah did pitch his tents in the borders on the beach by the seashore

Alma 52:9 fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and have power to harass them on every side.

Alma 52: 17 Bounrtiful near Melek

Alma 55:26 he had fortified the city Gid and took the prisoners to the city Bountiful

Alma 63:5Hagoth built a large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

Helaman 1:23 marched north from Zerahamla to Bountiful toward the land norhtward

CUMORAH

Mormon 6:2 gather our people in land of Cumorah by hill of Cumorah

Mormon 6:4 Cumorah a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains

Mormon 6:6 record made out of plates of Nephi (save it were these few plates given to Moroni) buried in Hill Cumorah

Mormon 8:2 after the battle at Cumorah the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

Ether 15:11 Hill Ramah and hill Cumorah same hill

LAND SOUTH AND LAND NORTH

Omni 1:22 and their (Jaradites) bones lay scattered in the land northward.

Alma 22:31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, animals migrate from land northward to bountirul for food

Alma 50:29 the land northward was covered with large bodies of water

Alma 56:22 Nephites had cities in the land Northward

Alma 63:4 5,400 men with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward.

Alma 63:7, 10 went by ship to the land northward

Alma 63:10 Corianton had gone forth to the land northward in a ship, to carry forth provisions unto the people who had gone forth into that land. (lack or resources in land northward)

Helaman 3:3 contention and many dissensions causing many to leave Zarahemla for the land northward

Helaman 3:8 population growth led to migration from the land southward to the land northward, covering the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.

Helaman 3:9 very few trees in the land northward, people lived in tents and cement houses

Helaman 3:10 timber, scarce in the land northward, was shipped from the south

Helaman 6:6 Lamanite teachers with Nephi and Lehi teach in the land northward

3 Nephi 3:24 gathered in the land southward, because of great curse in the land northward.

3 Nephi 8:12 more destruction in the land northward, the whole face of the land was changed,

Mormon 2:20 Nephites, hunted and driven, fled to the land called Shem

Mormon 2:29 And the Lamanites did give unto us the land northward, yea, even to the narrow passage which led into the land southward. And we did give unto the Lamanites all the land southward.

3 Nephi 8:11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

Ether 9:32 there were some which fled into the land southward.

Ether 10:19 for the land southward was covered with animals of the forest.

Ether 10:21 preserved the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

Sweet, thanks Freedom. i guess I should have read the whole thread before making my last post. Is this an exhaustive list of all directional/geographical comments in the BOM?

[Brant Gardner]

That's LGT 101 - Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about regarding Book of Mormon geography, up until two years before he was killed - due to a travel book he had received about the Maya. And everything he had said up to that point indicates he didn't understand or was ambiguous about the subject.

And I learned all this from reading articles at NAMI and FAIRLDS.

I assume that you are correct that this is what you gleaned from what was written, but I certainly don't agree with the way you have interpreted what was written. In my case (the only one about which I can speak with authority), I don't see Joseph as being definite on any geography - ever. He was open to new information, and influenced in the way he saw Book of Mormon geography by information available to him (perhaps beginning with Samuel Mitchell's ideas which are remarkably similar to what the early Saints said about the end of the Book of Mormon). This parallels other known developments in both his vocabulary and in certain ideas that reflect times and circumstances. That certainly doesn't say that he wasn't a prophet, but only recognizes what he himself reiterated, which was that he didn't always speak as a prophet.

In the case of the Book of Mormon, I would love to see a defense of the proposition that Joseph knew where the text took place. Who told him? When? How did he recognize it? Of course part of the historical problem in answering these questions is that we have very strong statements made after the fact, so one of the issues to be resolved would be the nature of the development of the community of ideas.

It is a rather complex historical question, but historians who have looked at the issue appear to contradict the hypothesis that all of these ideas came directly from Joseph.

[Freedom]

This is a good idea. I was thinking of doing this. Is there a resource for getting a list of all directional/geographic statements from the BOM text? Preferably one compiled by a completely neutral person who wouldn't ignore anything that might go against their pet theory.

Yes, its called the Book of Mormon. You can download an electronic version and simply do a search for terms. That is all I did. For example, type in Zerahemla and collect all the verses that mention it, or type in 'north' and so forth.

[Freedom]

Sweet, thanks Freedom. i guess I should have read the whole thread before making my last post. Is this an exhaustive list of all directional/geographical comments in the BOM?

No, this is just a small sampling, and I cannot vouch for my amateur selection process of what I felt qualified as legitimate directions. Nevertheless, from completing my own review, I found out what conclusions are based on conjecture. Logical and sensible conjecture, but conjecture nonetheless.