How Did Joseph See Both Adam And Michael; Aren’T They One And The Same Person??

[CV75]

In its original form Joseph Smith Stated that he saw both Adam and Michael

I find a lot of evidence of fatigue / exhaustion, hurriedness, interruption of thought, etc. throughout the manuscripts. Editing will attempt to smooth these things out, but even without it, the most essential elements are successfully conveyed.

[CASteinman]

So when exactly is Northern Utah considered being part of the South West?

Strange question. When are the various shades of blue considered to be blue? I guess when they are not considered to be some other color.

http://en.wikipedia....n_United_States

At the time of this prophecy, there was no Utah. There was a place called Mexico which was Southwest of Ohio. Later, when the Saints went there they tried to create a state called Deseret which went from north of Salt Lake to South of San Diego. This land or area was "southwest".

Edited July 3, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Did Brigham ever preach to about a dozen hostile men of color in their own language? Was Brigham Young multilingual?

I have not paid close attention to this, but I do recall reading about Brigham Young meeting with the native leaders there several times -- they were sort of hostile. He did preach to them about the Gospel as part of his explanation of what the Saints were doing there. Whether this was directly in their own language or not, I do not know. However that would not be required for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For those more than a bit deaf of hearing or blind of sight, this bears repeating.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Since this is lost on some perhaps you should elaborate.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

To answer Craig,

They are the same person. What you have listed in the OP is currently not how it reads. Does that help you out a bit?

Edited July 3, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[CASteinman]

BTW there is no indication that the hostile men described were Native Americans....just men of color

Well... you wish. However, men of color in the Southwest generally spoke English unless they were Native Americans -- and for the most part, that is the only men of color that were there.

This should be filed under "Duh".

Edited July 3, 2012 by CASteinman

[Craig Paxton]

Strange question. When are the various shades of blue considered to be blue? I guess when they are not considered to be some other color.

http://en.wikipedia....n_United_States

At the time of this prophecy, there was no Utah. There was a place called Mexico which was Southwest of Ohio. Later, when the Saints went there they tried to create a state called Deseret which went from north of Salt Lake to South of San Diego. This land or area was "southwest".

Yes Duh...is an appropriate place to file this....as in I was not using Utah as a name of a place...Duh... but as a directional location...which is why I stated clearly "Northern Utah" which suggests a geographical location rather than the name of a state which we both agree didn't exist in 1836 in State form...but I'll note that next time I'll be sure to give latitude and longitude coordinates so as not to confuse you.

[Craig Paxton]

To answer Craig,

They are the same person. What you have listed in the OP is currently not how it reads. Does that help you out a bit?

Yes Mola...I know that it was changed to conform with his earlier claim that they were the same person...I believe I stated such in my OP

[CASteinman]

I was not using Utah as a name of a place

And yet, it is the name of a place. A place that did not exist when the Prophecy was given. Oh well. I don't think its my fault when you are inconsistent.

As before.. this was Mexico -- a land that was Southwest. This is true, even if you do not like the implication that Joseph Smith got it right.

Edited July 3, 2012 by CASteinman

[Craig Paxton]

And yet, it is the name of a place. A place that did not exist when the Prophecy was given. Oh well. I don't think its my fault when you are inconsistent.

As before.. this was Mexico -- a land that was Southwest. This is true, even if you do not like the implication that Joseph Smith got it right.

Ok...you win...JS saw BY in a vision standing on a rock preaching to a dozen hostile colored people in some desert in the southwest in their own language...it makes as much sense as the rest of the mormon story does where facts don't matter...why not this...so he was speaking spanish to mexican nationals who were angry he was on a rock in their country and this took place in southwest utah...during one of his visits to St George I'm guessing... just didn't know Brigham spoke Spanish...oh well he was a man of many hidden talents

Edited July 3, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[John Ping Pong]

but I'll note that next time I'll be sure to give latitude and longitude coordinates so as not to confuse you.

Just make sure they don't end up being for Devil's Tower.

[CASteinman]

Ok...you win.

The key is... you lose. You lose every time you go against God and His Prophets, which seems to be a habit with you.

I invite you to become a winner again. Come back in faith to the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Edited July 3, 2012 by CASteinman

[rodheadlee]

So when exactly is Northern Utah considered being part of the South West?

Utah is in the south division in the Pac 12,.

[Calm]

this took place in southwest utah

It doesn't have to be "southwest" in relation to where Brigham was generally or the Saints were located at the time the prophecy was fulfilled (assuming it was). It would be "southwest" in relation to where Joseph was located when he stated the prophecy. Would "Northern Utah" have been considered "southwest" by Joseph?

I think the points that at that time the location Joseph saw in the vision was located in the territory of Mexico, and would have been seen as a "far off place" by Saints at that time, etc. is persuasive myself.

[SamIam]

Here's the exact revelation regarding Brigham Young:

Also Eldr Brigham Young standing in a strange land, in the far south west, in a desert place, upon a rock in the midst of about a dozen men of colour, who, appeared hostile

He was preaching to them in their own tou ng, and the angel of God standing above his head with a drawn sword in his hand protecting him, but he did not see it,— and I finally saw the 12 in the celestial kingdom of God,— I also beheld the redemption of Zion, and many things which the toung of man, cannot discribe in full

So when exactly is Northern Utah considered being part of the South West? And I'd also be interested to know if this...prophecy actually ever took place. Did Brigham ever preach to about a dozen hostile men of color in their own language? Was Brigham Young multilingual? If not ...I see this as just another Smith miss. BTW there is no indication that the hostile men described were Native Americans....just men of color

Brigham Young and the Gift of Tongues.

Editor, Improvement Era, Salt Lake City, Utah.

Dear Sir:

I am writing to you in relation to an incident that happened in the life of President Brigham Young, in the early settlement of Utah; and of which I find no mention in Church history. Along about 1890, Jesse W. Fox, Sr., who was in early days the principal surveyor of Utah's settlements, both North and South, accompanied President Young on his trips and laid out the principal towns of our state. Brother Fox related to me about the time above mentioned, that he had heard President Young on two or three occasions talk to the Indians in their own tongue.

The Indians were at different times quite opposed to the Mormons settling Southern Utah. President Young often said, "It is better to feed the Indians, than to fight them." And in order to carry out this policy a number of talks were had with the Indian Chiefs. It was in these talks that President Young had the "Gift of Tongues" made manifest.

The conversations I had with Jesse W. Fox were at the old County Court House, corner 2nd South and 1st [34] West. At that time I was County Collector for Salt Lake County. Brother Fox often came in my office and related to me many incidents of the early settlement of Utah.

Some ten or twelve years ago these conversations were brought forcibly to my mind while reading the Church History by Roberts. In Volume 2, page 381, I find the following: The Prophet Joseph Smith says, "I saw Brigham Young standing in a strange land in the far South and West in a desert place in the midst of about a dozen men of color who appeared angry. Brother Young spoke to them in their own tongue." In reading this vision of the Prophet, the incidents of our early history, as related to me by Brother Fox, were brought to my mind quite forcibly. Also, Jesse W. Fox, Jr., stated to me when I asked him if he had ever heard his father mention hearing of Brigham Young talk in tongues to the Indians, that he had heard his father mention that he had on several occasions.

About a year ago I got in conversation with an old-timer who was in the southern part of our state in 1870 as a missionary. This man was Caleb D. Brinton, now in his 84th year. He was at the town of Kanab. After talking with Elder Brinton about Indian affairs at that time, and finding that he was quite well-posted, I obtained the following affidavit from him; of which this is a copy:

September 15th, 1932

Salt Lake City.

To Whom It May Concern:

This is to certify that the undersigned, in connection with Jacob Hamblin and Ammon Tenney, were located at Kanab, Utah, as missionaries, when President Brigham Young, in connection with Jesse W. Fox, Sr., visited the town.

Black Hawk, an Indian Chief, also some other chiefs were camped near there. Black Hawk and his followers had been on the "warpath" for some time, and President Young was desirous of meeting him with a view of coming to some understanding as to peaceful settling of the south part of the state.

[35] Jacob Hamblin, an Indian interpreter, was with the party, and while they were trying to parley with the chiefs, President Young commenced to talk to them in their own tongue, and continued to do so for a period of time estimated by me to be 20 or 30 minutes. This incident was quite a surprise to all of us, as we knew that President Young did not know their language.

At the beginning of this talk, the Indians manifested considerable anger. However, at the conclusion of this parley, the Indians seemed to be appeased; for shortly after this incident, the Black Hawk War, as it was termed, ended.

Witness:

L.G. Hardy

Caleb D. Brinton

Resident - No. 5, Bodell Apts.

155 North Main Street

Salt Lake City, Utah

The foregoing narration seems to me to be of sufficient interest to publish as a faith-promoting incident, as it verifies the vision the Prophet Joseph Smith had in relation to the "gift of tongues" being used by Brigham Young to appease the anger of men of color (the Indians) in the far south and west.

This vision was given to the Prophet in Kirtland, Ohio. Kanab would correspond to the place described.

Yours truly,

L.G. Hardy

1984 South 7th East

Salt Lake City, Utah

(Imp. Era 37:432)

(The Gift of Tongues by Ogden Kraut PIONEER PRESS 3332 Ft. Union Blvd. Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 (801) 943-5651)

Edited July 4, 2012 by SamIam

[Deborah]

It is certainly a case of creative editing.

Or corrective editing as many things transcribed were later corrected, even by Joseph Smith himself. But then this illustrates how one's attitude interprets information.

[Craig Paxton]

Brigham Young and the Gift of Tongues.

Editor, Improvement Era, Salt Lake City, Utah.

Dear Sir:

I am writing to you in relation to an incident that happened in the life of President Brigham Young, in the early settlement of Utah; and of which I find no mention in Church history. Along about 1890, Jesse W. Fox, Sr., who was in early days the principal surveyor of Utah's settlements, both North and South, accompanied President Young on his trips and laid out the principal towns of our state. Brother Fox related to me about the time above mentioned, that he had heard President Young on two or three occasions talk to the Indians in their own tongue.

The Indians were at different times quite opposed to the Mormons settling Southern Utah. President Young often said, "It is better to feed the Indians, than to fight them." And in order to carry out this policy a number of talks were had with the Indian Chiefs. It was in these talks that President Young had the "Gift of Tongues" made manifest.

The conversations I had with Jesse W. Fox were at the old County Court House, corner 2nd South and 1st [34] West. At that time I was County Collector for Salt Lake County. Brother Fox often came in my office and related to me many incidents of the early settlement of Utah.

Some ten or twelve years ago these conversations were brought forcibly to my mind while reading the Church History by Roberts. In Volume 2, page 381, I find the following: The Prophet Joseph Smith says, "I saw Brigham Young standing in a strange land in the far South and West in a desert place in the midst of about a dozen men of color who appeared angry. Brother Young spoke to them in their own tongue." In reading this vision of the Prophet, the incidents of our early history, as related to me by Brother Fox, were brought to my mind quite forcibly. Also, Jesse W. Fox, Jr., stated to me when I asked him if he had ever heard his father mention hearing of Brigham Young talk in tongues to the Indians, that he had heard his father mention that he had on several occasions.

About a year ago I got in conversation with an old-timer who was in the southern part of our state in 1870 as a missionary. This man was Caleb D. Brinton, now in his 84th year. He was at the town of Kanab. After talking with Elder Brinton about Indian affairs at that time, and finding that he was quite well-posted, I obtained the following affidavit from him; of which this is a copy:

September 15th, 1932

Salt Lake City.

To Whom It May Concern:

This is to certify that the undersigned, in connection with Jacob Hamblin and Ammon Tenney, were located at Kanab, Utah, as missionaries, when President Brigham Young, in connection with Jesse W. Fox, Sr., visited the town.

Black Hawk, an Indian Chief, also some other chiefs were camped near there. Black Hawk and his followers had been on the "warpath" for some time, and President Young was desirous of meeting him with a view of coming to some understanding as to peaceful settling of the south part of the state.

[35] Jacob Hamblin, an Indian interpreter, was with the party, and while they were trying to parley with the chiefs, President Young commenced to talk to them in their own tongue, and continued to do so for a period of time estimated by me to be 20 or 30 minutes. This incident was quite a surprise to all of us, as we knew that President Young did not know their language.

At the beginning of this talk, the Indians manifested considerable anger. However, at the conclusion of this parley, the Indians seemed to be appeased; for shortly after this incident, the Black Hawk War, as it was termed, ended.

Witness:

L.G. Hardy

Caleb D. Brinton

Resident - No. 5, Bodell Apts.

155 North Main Street

Salt Lake City, Utah

The foregoing narration seems to me to be of sufficient interest to publish as a faith-promoting incident, as it verifies the vision the Prophet Joseph Smith had in relation to the "gift of tongues" being used by Brigham Young to appease the anger of men of color (the Indians) in the far south and west.

This vision was given to the Prophet in Kirtland, Ohio. Kanab would correspond to the place described.

Yours truly,

L.G. Hardy

1984 South 7th East

Salt Lake City, Utah

(Imp. Era 37:432)

(The Gift of Tongues by Ogden Kraut PIONEER PRESS 3332 Ft. Union Blvd. Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 (801) 943-5651)

Well there you have it...confirmed proof of Joseph's prophethood...or perhaps...just maybe...we have a perfect example of coloring by numbers...where Joseph provided the lines and L.G. Hardy and Caleb D. Brinton filled in the blanks...over 62 years after the alledged incident took place....or perhaps Brigham was secretly taking an online Ute language course through rosettastone.com and had become proficient enough in Ute to have a friendly conversation with Chief Blackhawk...I think that that is just as likely as Brigham speaking in native tongues to indians without having some fore-knowledge of the language.

I mean how much credibility can be placed on these magical stories before it becomes apparent that they just aren’t reliable...similar spectacular stories such as the Kirtland ladies smashing their china so it can be placed in the mortar of the temple has been discredited as well as the story of Brigham transforming himself into Joseph. People who believe in magic see magic in their world….as these stories demonstrate.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[Scott Lloyd]

... has been discredited as well as the story of Brigham transforming himself into Joseph.

It's false that this has been discredited. See the chapter in Opening the Heavens" titled "The Succession in the Presidency" in which author Lynne Watkins Jorgensen presents 121 documented testimonies of a collective spiritual witness regarding the mantle of Joseph Smith passing to Brigham Young.

And despite your attempt at well-poisoning via straw man fallacy, it wasn't claimed that "Brigham transform[ed] himself into Joseph" but rather, in the perspective of some observers, Brigham seemed to have the appearance and voice of Joseph.

This matter has been discussed at length in the past in threads on this board. When I'm at a desktop PC, I'll provide a link or two.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Well there you have it...confirmed proof of Joseph's prophethood...or perhaps...just maybe...we have a perfect example of coloring by numbers...

Beyond "perhaps" and "might have" grumbling, do you have anything solid to refute this affidavit?

I won't hold my breath.

[Craig Paxton]

It's false that this has been discredited. See the chapter in Opening the Heavens" titled "The Succession in the Presidency" in which author Lynn Watkins Jorgensen presents 121 documented testimonies of a collective spiritual witness regarding the mantle of Joseph Smith passing to Brigham Young.

And despite your attempt at well-poisoning via straw man fallacy, it wasn't claimed that "Brigham transform[ed] himself into Joseph" but rather, in the perspective of some observers, Brigham seemed to have the appearance and voice of Joseph.

This matter has been discussed at length in the past in threads on this board. When I'm at a desktop PC, I'll provide a link or two.

I'll see your 121 testimonies and raise you 122...BTW no well poisoning or strawmen here Lloyd...oh and why does Lloyd have too "L's" anyway?

Still been discredited...http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/myth_creation.pdf

[Craig Paxton]

Beyond "perhaps" and "might have" grumbling, do you have anything solid to refute this affidavit?

I won't hold my breath.

Nope nothing....but I'm soooooo glad that you are now accepting decades old second hand hearsay evidence to support your position...cuz I have ooodles of it in my tool bag if thats the case.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[Scott Lloyd]

I'll see your 121 testimonies and raise you 122...BTW no well poisoning or strawmen here Lloyd...oh and why does Lloyd have too "L's" anyway?

Still been discredited...http://www.mormonism...th_creation.pdf

Yes. On the prior threads there were some who, like you, seemed to harbor the notion that when Van Wagoner speaks, the thinking has been done.

As I said, I'll provide a link when I can get to a desktop computer. Meanwhile, have you looked at Jorgensen's chapter in "Opening the Heavens"? Suffice it to say that Van Wagoner's ruminations are not the final word on the matter.

Add-on: You asked about my surname a while back, and Pahoran already answered you. Lloyd is a Welsh name. The double L represents a consonant sound that is not present in the English language.

So now that you have been answered twice, you have no further need or excuse to show your ignorance and embarrass yourself with digs like "kinda redundant."

Edited July 7, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Nope nothing....

What a surprise.

but I'm soooooo glad that you are now accepting decades old second hand hearsay evidence to support your position...cuz I have ooodles of it in my tool bag if thats the case.

You're talking gibberish. The quoted affidavit is not second-hand. And it's not hearsay. The authors are eyewitnesses.

[Darren10]

Well there you have it...confirmed proof of Joseph's prophethood...or perhaps...just maybe...we have a perfect example of coloring by numbers...where Joseph provided the lines and L.G. Hardy and Caleb D. Brinton filled in the blanks...over 62 years after the alledged incident took place....or perhaps Brigham was secretly taking an online Ute language course through rosettastone.com and had become proficient enough in Ute to have a friendly conversation with Chief Blackhawk...I think that that is just as likely as Brigham speaking in native tongues to indians without having some fore-knowledge of the language.

I mean how much credibility can be placed on these magical stories before it becomes apparent that they just aren’t reliable...similar spectacular stories such as the Kirtland ladies smashing their china so it can be placed in the mortar of the temple has been discredited as well as the story of Brigham transforming himself into Joseph. People who believe in magic see magic in their world….as these stories demonstrate.

Samlam's account of Brigham Young seems perfectly legit to me.

[Craig Paxton]

What a surprise.

The quoted affidavit is not second-hand. And it's not hearsay. The authors are eyewitnesses.

Good to know...that decades old second hand hearsay evidence is now considered eyewitness accounts...I hope you keep that in mind next time I present some decades old second hand hearsay evidence...cuz in reality I'll be presenting an eyewitness account and should be accepted without question.