Tone Of Mormon Apologetics

[KevinG]

It's your looks, sorry. The whole wolfish dog thing....just doesn't work. Gives the game away too fast.

Sasha says "woof you!"

[wenglund]

True blue faith shaken person here, not an apostate, though I may come across as such. If any of you have read other forums such as NOM or Stay LDS, you'd see that there are truly heart broken people out there that have lost their testimonies. Why is it that I read about so many of them that have occurred in the last 4 or 5 years, like myself?

This is a good question, though not one that lends itself to factual answers.

In my opinion, and from what I can tell, and assuming there is an increase (it may just be a function of people nowadays being more aware of the disaffections through increased access to the Internet and social networking) I doubt seriously that the alleged increase in lost testimonies has anything to do with their praying to God and following the Spirit in guiding them to the way that will best enable them to become like Christ.

I suspect, instead, that there are a number of contributing factors.

For one, society seems less and less inclined towards personal responsibility and accountability, and more disposed to blame and fault others for their problems.

For another, there may be a growing number of professional and avocational naysayers, complainers, and nit-pickers, and people generally bent on viewing the cup as half empty rather than half full---looking more for what is wrong about aspects of life rather than for what is going right.

And, because of the nature of the Internet, there may also have been a marked increase in mis-information and dis-information and people purporting to know what they are talking about, but who don't have a clue; and equally clueless and gullible people willing to buy uncritically into the propaganda, though each ironically viewing themselves as the champions of truth. For example, I just now visited the stayLDS.org website, and it is clear from its mission statement that the title of the organization is very misleading, and that that organization was set up to do everything but help people stay LDS, and yet they pretend to advocate for truth.

In short, as always, the saints are being tested in their faith as a part of the growth process, but too many are not faring too well in their tests, and some are even flunking,

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 3, 2012 by wenglund

[Darren10]

I am presently preparing a blog post that details those events, as well as others from a year previous, when an attempt was made to prevent me from speaking at the 2010 FAIR conference. That led directly to the later suppression of the scroll-length article.

Incidentally, the scroll-length paper consisted primarily of calculations based on the first substantial set of forensic measurements ever made of any ancient Egyptian scroll, insofar as Professor Gee has been able to determine. The measurements of the thickness of the papyri were conducted employing a novel methodology, by a PhD expert in a relevant field, as Professor Gee assisted and I recorded the measurements. It also would have contained some of the first really high quality images of the papyri to be published. The paper had been reviewed and approved for publication by the Church Historian.*

Jerry Bradford, to my knowledge, knew all these things. And yet, because he had apparently been influenced by some to believe that the article was apologetic nonsense, he demanded that its publication be halted, and used a ridiculous smear piece prepared and/or promulgated by the same group of apostates (and their sympathizers) who have most recently been the recipients of the emails leaked from the Maxwell Institute.

Good grief. Does this cr*p really go on at the Maxwell Institute? Can I get hold of a general authority [just as] the apostates [claim to do]?

UPDATE: Edited and new content placed in brackets.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Darren10

[Mudcat]

I've never been employed as an LDS apologist. Perhaps its my tone?

I know it's off topic.. but I shouldn't eat and read at the same time. I hold you responsible for the Diet Mt. Dew I spewed on the chicken sandwich.

It had bacon on it and was smothered in cheese.. it was a real shame I guess. Gave it to one of the dogs.

Though the Australian shepherd was pleased with the final outcome and may be a new fan of yours.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Jesus himself, while he did sometimes use a "nice" tone also used tones, mortal, pre mortal, and post mortal, that today would raise a hue and cry of meaness and cruelty. Some things that Jesus said would even cause him to be banned from this board. Thus if we really believe that Jesus is our Exemplar, then restricting one's "tone" to niceness in most or all cases is unChristlike.

You mean you really think it's O.K. to emulate someone else because he is admired and worshipped so that means it's O.K. for you to talk like him too, you whited sepulchre? You pro slavery thinking emulator you..... You Democrat hater hypocrit son of the devil (ALL words used by Jesus, lets see if the board actually does take off my post shall we?)

[Stargazer]

You mean you really think it's O.K. to emulate someone else because he is admired and worshipped so that means it's O.K. for you to talk like him too, you whited sepulchre? You pro slavery thinking emulator you..... You Democrat hater hypocrit son of the devil (ALL words used by Jesus, lets see if the board actually does take off my post shall we?)

CFR that Jesus ever used the word "Democrat".

[Calm]

It's all in the translation....and it's not just "Democrat" but "Democrat hater".

Edited July 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Libs]

Oh man....I need to reread the New Testament! I missed a LOT. lol

[Minos]

Everybody, stop using Jesus as your wingman to win speculative arguments.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Everybody, stop using Jesus as your wingman to win speculative arguments.

AHA! The light goes on...........

[Kerry A. Shirts]

CFR that Jesus ever used the word "Democrat".

The reference was not to Jesus but to BCSpace...... I was using Jesus' language at BCSpace as an illustration, pronouncing truths in the language of the Bible, since hey, if it's ethical and considered all right from there, then we can use it freely.....

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Meh, Half of what I write gets deleted these days. I guess that's my que to take my leave.

It's been real folks

Take care,

Senator

Cool story, bro. Edited July 3, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[JackNimble]

It's all in the translation....and it's not just "Democrat" but "Democrat hater".

Another translation: publican or "re"publican for latter-day purposes

[why me]

True blue faith shaken person here, not an apostate, though I may come across as such. If any of you have read other forums such as NOM or Stay LDS, you'd see that there are truly heart broken people out there that have lost their testimonies. Why is it that I read about so many of them that have occurred in the last 4 or 5 years, like myself? Do you see that? Anyway, they were stalwart LDS. I was stalwart, 100% active, always had a TR, calling etc. But I relied on others testimonies and I believe now I was in it for the social end, never gave church history a second thought. But now in my "middle way" state of mind, it feels so bleak with no end in sight. If you knew me you'd understand the dilemma I face at admitting I've lost my testimony. If I come out to my extended family it could cause so much havoc in so many lives. That's the reason for my obsession with getting the facts. I am blown away at the defenders on this board. I love it here so far, it's a godsend.

In the past, people didn't care about church history. In fact, I don't remember people giving it much thought at all. And I never heard it discussed. And yet, people had books in their library about church history. But it wasn't really a talking point. Now it is. And one reason that it is is because the critics bring it up every chance they get and their interpretations are read over and over again on the internet. And they make it sound as if the church is hiding it putting blame on JS or BY. And then in 2005 Bushman published his wonderful biography of Joseph Smith and yet, we still get the hiding gig from the critics.

Why do people lose their testimonies? Because they have allowed others to destroy their testimonies and they have allowed others to tell them what to think. A testimony is built on a personal relationship with the holy ghost. For example, I prayed about the book of mormon when I was 18. I am now very much older. I received an answer to that prayer, a very powerful answer. Who can take that away from me? John Dehlin? John Larsen? Steve Benson? I don't think so and why would I allow them to do it? i am the only one who can take that testimony away from me by allowing others to influence me. But that experience that I had at 18 will still remain.

Not much different for the 11 witnesses to the book of mormon.

[why me]

There is only one source for a testimony of Jesus, the restored Gospel, the Book of Mormon, etc.

Glenn

The source for a testimony is the confirmation that the holy ghost gives when a person prays about the book of mormon and receives a witness that it is true. Without that witness it may be tough going for the person involved. Now what is unfortunate is the amount of people who allow that witness to be contaminated by others. How often have we heard it being compared to a 'warm fuzzy' by the critics and apostates? Such is their rationale for that feeling they received...a warm fuzzy. And yet, if I decide to play down that witness that I received, I just may use a 'warm fuzzy' too. Anything that will get me through the day.

[Tacenda]

The source for a testimony is the confirmation that the holy ghost gives when a person prays about the book of mormon and receives a witness that it is true. Without that witness it may be tough going for the person involved. Now what is unfortunate is the amount of people who allow that witness to be contaminated by others. How often have we heard it being compared to a 'warm fuzzy' by the critics and apostates? Such is their rationale for that feeling they received...a warm fuzzy. And yet, if I decide to play down that witness that I received, I just may use a 'warm fuzzy' too. Anything that will get me through the day.

[John Ping Pong]

Perhaps you are going too far with the word "witty" in your case? Be that as it may, I am pleased to see that you are self-reflective enough to realize that we get little more than finger-pointing from you here. But, what more should be expected of someone posting anonymously?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Geez! Give it a rest, Wade.

[Calm]

Everybody, stop using Jesus as your wingman to win speculative arguments.

Brilliant. We really need to be able to give mods rep points.

[Tacenda]

The source for a testimony is the confirmation that the holy ghost gives when a person prays about the book of mormon and receives a witness that it is true. Without that witness it may be tough going for the person involved. Now what is unfortunate is the amount of people who allow that witness to be contaminated by others. How often have we heard it being compared to a 'warm fuzzy' by the critics and apostates? Such is their rationale for that feeling they received...a warm fuzzy. And yet, if I decide to play down that witness that I received, I just may use a 'warm fuzzy' too. Anything that will get me through the day.

People of all faiths get these same impressions. Do you think life would be more cohesive if the church stepped back a little on "the one true church" mentality? And allowed the position that as long as you're a believer, you're all in the true church. Do you see this happening, as has been done with the Community of Christ church? I'm going to get flak for this, but it is a dream of mine. But I know this is an impossibity. I can hear it now, "well, leave then".

[KevinG]

People of all faiths get these same impressions. Do you think life would be more cohesive if the church stepped back a little on "the one true church" mentality? And allowed the position that as long as you're a believer, you're all in the true church. Do you see this happening, as has been done with the Community of Christ church? I'm going to get flak for this, but it is a dream of mine. But I know this is an impossibity. I can hear it now, "well, leave then".

On the bright side we're the only "one true church" that will baptize you if you were wrong.

We have backed off the "one true church" thing and in fact speak more about the fullness of the Gospel than the exclusivity of it.

[John Ping Pong]

Sure. For starters, any book that disagrees with the mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon seems to get a pleasantly negative review.

Here's a softly worded summary from a negative review:

The exception to this rule being the reviews of Rod Meldrum's books, of course, which were called "pseudo scientific snake oil".

Don't forget Louis Midgley's decimating critique of a Book of Mormon commentary written by two BYU professors (one the son of an apostle) in the first edition back in 1989.

Edited July 3, 2012 by John Ping Pong

[wenglund]

Geez! Give it a rest, Wade.

I already had more than a day ago (see my post #123 on this thread). If you are going to usurp the role of board nanny, at least try and keep up.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[John Ping Pong]

I already had more than a day ago (see my post #123 on this thread). If you are going to usurp the role of board nanny, at least try and keep up.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You are over the top and owe Senator an apology.

[wenglund]

You are over the top and owe Senator an apology.

Feel free to file a report with the Department of Homeland Security if it is that significant and important to you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[volgadon]

Everybody, stop using Jesus as your wingman to win speculative arguments.

Memorable quote! Also, God is my co-pilot.