wenglund Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Based on what I see you posting here I dare say you know not near as much as you think about being Christ like or a true disciple of His.I am not sure you are in a good position to say, but I will consider the source and and give it due weight.Either way, the important thing is that you understand that Christ, and becoming like him, is what the gospel is really all about, and that the primary reason that people loose faith is because they loose sight of this. Continuing in faith necessitates keeping one's eye single to Christ.What I know or do not know about such things I will not broadcast here nor pretend to be able to tutor people on such like you attempt too.Whether intended or not, virtually with your every post here you broadcast what you don't know.Suffice it to say it seems clear to me that to be a disciple of Christ does not require the LDS Church or any other for that matter though such organizations can help and sometimes hurt, the process.See what I mean about not knowing? You are confusing becoming like Christ with simply being a disciple of Christ.More important, it took me reminding you what the gospel is really all about to get you back on point--and even then I sense your resistance.What you may not understand as well is that what I am saying isn't really intended to be about me and what I may or may not know, or who or what I am or am not, but rather about helping the lost sheep to refocus on what is truly important and in their best interest. I am not saying these things for my own benefit and aggrandizement, but for your good and for the good of others who may be stumbling through the fog. I only want what is best for you, and I hope you are willing to humbly receive it, if not from me, then kneel before God and ask him.Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
John Larsen Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Publicizing draws attention to the group, which may lead to others joining the mormonexpression community and eventually feeling strengthened by that community, reject and resign the Church. That is productive in the community's view, even if it is not in yours.The "freedom" shout would seem to indicate this.It would seem to be a strange publicity stunt for ME since we are putting the podcast on hiatus at the end of July. No, truely these things didn't really have much to do with each other except us and we tend to get things done.
John Larsen Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 So, you have a mass resigning of 50 people or so, so they can feel joy in doing so?Yes. But more importantly, so 100s of others can see these people as an example and find courage to do so themselves.
cwald Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Forever?Noooooo! Please don't say that. Good luck John L. I personally think you have helped many people heal and find peace.
ERayR Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) Yes. But more importantly, so 100s of others can see these people as an example and find courage to do so themselves.You are speaking of the courage to resign the Mormon Church as if is some big. heroic. dangerous feat. All one has to do is send a letter to ones bishop. I have never personally known a bishop who would harm someone who asked to have their name removed. The big bad giant is going to send out a hit squad to terrorize your family if you dare resign. Come now. Edited July 3, 2012 by ERayR 1
wenglund Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Noooooo! Please don't say that. Good luck John L. I personally think you have helped many people heal and find peace.You found John's enterprise therapeutic? Strange.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
John Larsen Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 You are speaking of the courage to resign the Mormon Church as if is some big. heroic. dangerous feat. All one has to do is send a letter to ones bishop. I have never personally known a bishop who would harm someone who asked to have their name removed. The big bad giant is going to send out a hit squad to terrorize your family if you dare resign. Come now.The threat is not from the Church, it is from the families. I have personnal met people who have lost their jobs, lost business partners, lost their families, lost custody of their children, been divorced, written out of wills, had the neighborhood children forbidden from playing with their children, shunned and generally socially abused over the decision. It is not trival and not to be taken lightly.
John Larsen Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 You found John's enterprise therapeutic? Strange.Thanks, -Wade Englund-That reminds me, Wade. You once said you were running a support group for ex-Mormons who were going back into the Church. How is that working out these days?
cwald Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 You are speaking of the courage to resign the Mormon Church as if is some big. heroic. dangerous feat. All one has to do is send a letter to ones bishop. I have never personally known a bishop who would harm someone who asked to have their name removed. The big bad giant is going to send out a hit squad to terrorize your family if you dare resign. Come now.You have no idea what you are talking about.Another example of why MS is needed.
cwald Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) ... It is not trival and not to be taken lightly.Yep. But so many of the church faithful choose to not understand.-sigh- Edited July 3, 2012 by cwald
cwald Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 You found John's enterprise therapeutic? Strange.Thanks, -Wade Englund-Really? Why?
wenglund Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 You are speaking of the courage to resign the Mormon Church as if is some big. heroic. dangerous feat. All one has to do is send a letter to ones bishop. I have never personally known a bishop who would harm someone who asked to have their name removed. The big bad giant is going to send out a hit squad to terrorize your family if you dare resign. Come now.Sadly, some people actually view some of the most loving and edifying things as evil, horrible, and terribly hurtful. It is a part of living in an upside-down world, where good is called bad and bad is called good.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Tacenda Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) I have to concur with John Larsen here, that it's fear of what it would do to family, friends, and neighbors. Especially if it would hurt my children, they might lose friends. Also I fear both my husband and I could lose our employment. Because we work with alot of people we live around. Edited July 3, 2012 by Tacenda 1
yootaw Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Sadly, some people actually view some of the most loving and edifying things as evil, horrible, and terribly hurtful. It is a part of living in an upside-down world, where good is called bad and bad is called good.Thanks, -Wade Englund-If you find the church loving and edifying, then it would be foolish to leave. That is an easy perspective to understand. It is also not that much of a stretch to acknowledge that this is not the experience that everyone has. Those that leave choose a difficult path. I'm not sure how demeaning this path is helpful.
wenglund Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) The threat is not from the Church, it is from the families. I have personnal met people who have lost their jobs, lost business partners, lost their families, lost custody of their children, been divorced, written out of wills, had the neighborhood children forbidden from playing with their children, shunned and generally socially abused over the decision. It is not trival and not to be taken lightly.I have experience much of that myself, though as function of a bad economy, family dynamics, and prejudice against my faith. I chalk it up as a part of human life, and take it all in stride, rather than perceive it as some dangerous and heroic feat that invokes considerable fear. But, that may just be me.Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited July 3, 2012 by wenglund
wenglund Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 That reminds me, Wade. You once said you were running a support group for ex-Mormons who were going back into the Church. How is that working out these days?Actually, several years ago I had publicly explored the prospect of formally offering proven solutions to bridging the divide between members and former members. At the time I received so much mindless push-back and resistance from former members as to warrant scrapping the project in lieu of an informal approach employed when and where amenable--which, in various way, I still engage in on occasion here. The success of my efforts are difficult to measure (even were I inclined to do so--I am not) and dependent in large part on the openness of former members and members to the notions of pragmatism, effective conflict resolution, and focusing on doing good and what is best.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
wenglund Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 If you find the church loving and edifying, then it would be foolish to leave. That is an easy perspective to understand. It is also not that much of a stretch to acknowledge that this is not the experience that everyone has. Those that leave choose a difficult path. I'm not sure how demeaning this path is helpful.I have acknowledged that some people's experience is different from mine. And, I am not demeaning that different experience by viewing it as upside-down. In a way, I am explaining the difference, and to some extent why there is a difference. Such things are very helpful to those interested in progress.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
wenglund Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Really? Why?Because as someone schooled in various forms of therapy (special needs, psychology, and physical therapy), I have seen nothing within John's enterprise that could in any reasonable sense be classified as therapy. To me, it is about as therapeutic as Hardball with Chris Mathews on MSNBC.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
why me Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Noooooo! Please don't say that. Good luck John L. I personally think you have helped many people heal and find peace.Since John Larsen and his wife are advocating mass resignations, I have no idea what you mean by helping many people. Do you mean helping people to resign from the church? John's podcasts are basically for exmormons and he personally seems to find enjoyment in people resigning.
mrmandias Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 The threat is not from the Church, it is from the families. I have personnal met people who have lost their jobs, lost business partners, lost their families, lost custody of their children, been divorced, written out of wills, had the neighborhood children forbidden from playing with their children, shunned and generally socially abused over the decision. It is not trival and not to be taken lightly.I take it families are more sympathetic and understanding if you invent a rejection ceremony which you perform at one of their fatih's historical sites and then have it publicized around the world? Don't worry, honey, I may reject everything you believe in, but at least I made a spectacle of my contempt for you. 4
yootaw Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 I have acknowledged that some people's experience is different from mine. And, I am not demeaning that different experience by viewing it as upside-down. In a way, I am explaining the difference, and to some extent why there is a difference. Such things are very helpful to those interested in progress.Thanks, -Wade Englund-I have noticed, and appreciated your comments in this and other threads regarding the choice to leave being right for some people. Thanks for reminding me of that. I'd like to understand more what you mean by viewing the experience as upside down, and how this is helpful to those interested in progress. Can you elaborate? Thanks.
why me Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 The threat is not from the Church, it is from the families. I have personnal met people who have lost their jobs, lost business partners, lost their families, lost custody of their children, been divorced, written out of wills, had the neighborhood children forbidden from playing with their children, shunned and generally socially abused over the decision. It is not trival and not to be taken lightly.I would say that many of the things you mention in this post happen because of human nature. People lose business partners for a host of reasons, likewise for being written out of wills. Likewise for divorce etc. However, the lds church encourages none of this and does speak out against treating former members harshly. In fact, it encourages loving the exmember. But people are people and people react in many different ways to new situations.The problem comes when critics make it a church sponsored problem. It isn't.
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